What happened to the SRBs ?

[Hcube]

Everyone is talking about the LFO engines nerfs (i understand why )

but what concerned me most of all while playing was the SRBs ! did those get completely trashed ? I used the "hammer" (better start using those neat nicknames) quite a few times and noticed its burn time is crazy low ! Is it just me ? (I soon as i have time to play the game again i will time it) And what about the BACC ? It wasnt great already, but now its thrust is nearly identical to the "hammer"´s one...

I dont understand why those were nerfed along with the LFO engines(48-7S never forget). If the LFOs get nerfed, arent we supposed to use the SRBs to lift the first stages ? --> well they got thrashed too...

Somebody please tell me i'm mistaken and its just my impressions

[EladDv]

SRBs were too powerful to the aero in career and sandbox so they applied some nerf bat on them

[NovaSilisko]

Honestly, I see so much complaining about the nerfing, but I welcome it. I did feel like most stuff was pretty OP in 0.90, and it was super easy to do... well, almost anything.

[panzer1b]

Its because these days getting into orbit takes nothing compared to before, and the RT-10 was kinda useless for anything really unless you need it for early career, or want to make capital ship torpedoes to shoot stuff with. outside of those 2 uses, i rarely if ever touched the RT-10, before or after 1.0. Actually it also makes a nice RATO booster for some massive planes, but again, outside of some odd uses, kinda always was a pointless part.

[smjjames]

They were set up for the old aero anyway and would be overpowered for the new aero.

[Rakshasa]

Try playing career on hardmode, then you'll realize they've balanced them perfectly.

[SelectHalfling0]

I built a little rocket (LFO on top, 2 hammers as first stage, one small onion booster 2nd stage) and it reached orbit. Nothing is not op about that. We just need to relearn how to fly rockets.

[Hcube]

Well, i guess im gonna get used to it... thanks for the answers

If a mod sees this, feel free to lock

[Godot]

They were set up for the old aero anyway and would be overpowered for the new aero.

If the new Aero is similar to FAR (especially with regards to the lower losses due nto air resistance) then this nerf is well deserved.

In FAR you were able to catapult your capsule with a single yellow booster up to an altitude of >250 km (with other words, into far space)

[pellinor]

What bugs me more is that they are not equal anymore, so everytime you unlock a new SRB all others will be obsolete. Parts becoming obsolete is an easy way to do a progression but not the best design for a sandbox game.

[Tobyz28]

You need to factor cost into the balance equation from career mode before evaluating the extent of nerfing done

[karolus10]

I see new small SRB as a nice payload motor in late game, so not that obsolete for me !

[Duban]

SRBs were too powerful to the aero in career and sandbox so they applied some nerf bat on them

Do you realize just how nerfed SRBs are now? The changes are. An ISP of 160 down from 225-240. 160! That’s literally 80s worse than RCS engines, and is exaggerated farther by the exponential growth of mass. A 50% heavier dry weight. A third less fuel mass down from 3.25 tons to 2.25 tons. And nearly double the cost going from 325 credits up to 580.

We aren't talking about a few adjustments for the new meta. This is nerfed into oblivion changes. I can't recall a nerf this massive to ANYTHING in video gaming history.

[Xyrus]

Do you realize just how nerfed SRBs are now? The changes are. An ISP of 160 down from 225-240. 160! That’s literally 80s worse than RCS engines, and is exaggerated farther by the exponential growth of mass. A 50% heavier dry weight. A third less fuel mass down from 3.25 tons to 2.25 tons. And nearly double the cost going from 325 credits up to 580.

We aren't talking about a few adjustments for the new meta. This is nerfed into oblivion changes. I can't recall a nerf this massive to ANYTHING in video gaming history.

You're being melodramatic. Ever played with FAR? You could practically make an SSTO with a command pod and an RT-10. You could almost leave Kerbin SOI with a just a S1 SRB. The parts needed a major nerf or they would have been stupid OP.

[Duban]

You're being melodramatic. Ever played with FAR? You could practically make an SSTO with a command pod and an RT-10. You could almost leave Kerbin SOI with a just a S1 SRB. The parts needed a major nerf or they would have been stupid OP.

We're not talking about the general nerf to all "parts" though. Everything was retweaked, but the SRBs in particular were nerfed far beyond that of anything else in the game. It wasn't just a tweak for SRBs. Think about this. A third less ISP, 50% heavier dry mass, and a third less fuel mass. That's a crazy nerf even with the atmospheric changes. You would literally have 50% more delta-V for the same fuel mass before these changes, but you still have a third less fuel to work with anyways

Edited April 28, 2015 by Duban

[NathanKell]

Ah, but let's look at it from the other direction. Liquid engines are generally 8x as heavy as real life, and fuel tanks have about four times the dry mass of real life. Solids, on the other hand...had the same dry mass as real life. So they were, by comparison, insanely OP.

[Duban]

Ah, but let's look at it from the other direction. Liquid engines are generally 8x as heavy as real life, and fuel tanks have about four times the dry mass of real life. Solids, on the other hand...had the same dry mass as real life. So they were, by comparison, insanely OP.

Gameplay trumps realism in video gaming. Realism is the worst argument you can use for balancing video games.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Duban

[Eric S]

Gameplay trumps realism in video gaming. Realism is the worst argument you can use for balancing video games.

Fine, gameplay trumps realism. Then explain to us how this change is bad for gameplay. I've easily launched more SRBs than LFE engines in career under 1.0, and every time I try to get away from them, I wind up with something that underperforms compared to what I already had unless it's a lot more expensive. Using strictly expensive LFE engines just doesn't make sense in the lower atmosphere due to ISP affecting thrust rather than fuel flow.

[WOODY01]

I am finding the SRBs more useful in 1.0. I have been using them more, because of them being more cost effective for getting through the lower atmosphere. Not an expert, so someone may come by and show me the error in my conclusion about this.

[mikegarrison]

I find the SRBs more effective now than they used to be. Don't worry about the numbers, look at how high and fast they end up pushing you.

I think people just aren't calibrated to the new aero. People are reporting that it only takes 3300 m/s to get to orbit.

[Renegrade]

Gameplay trumps realism in video gaming. Realism is the worst argument you can use for balancing video games.

Yes, but only when they're in CONFLICT. KSP was rather frisky with doling out Isp to these engines, considering how TINY the system is. 0.90 was massively crazy easy mode. Actually, it still is massively crazy easy mode, but at least my rescue craft are costing more than 4600 funds now.

You now have gameplay diversity in that you have cheap, low-efficiency solids vs expensive, high-efficiency (but no longer quite as crazily so) liquids (T30s and T45s are like 1100 and 1200, more than even a BACC, and that includes bingo fuel). Before you had cheap, medium-high efficiency solids vs somewhat-expensive high efficiency liquids. Now the difference is more pronounced.

Actually I think they should have rolled in a lot HARDER on the nerfs, and then done an across-the-board EXTRA nerf on top of that. Then, any post-1.0 changes will be more likely to be buffs instead, which will be a lot more popular with the new community than additional nerfs.

[NathanKell]

You're absolutely right! Why make fuel usage related to Isp--gameplay trumps realism! Why make gravity scale with the inverse square of distance? Wouldn't it be more fun if your orbital velocity increased the higher you went, and your orbital period stayed constant? Brilliant!

[Nobody_1707]

If the new Aero is similar to FAR (especially with regards to the lower losses due nto air resistance) then this nerf is well deserved.

In FAR you were able to catapult your capsule with a single yellow booster up to an altitude of >250 km (with other words, into far space)

If SRB's had gimbal, I would have been able to reach orbit with just an RT-10, a small capsule, and a parachute using 0.90 FAR.

[Hcube]

I can't recall a nerf this massive to ANYTHING in video gaming history.

Ever played BF3 ? USAS 12 ?

but yeah the sebs are into oblivion now

[Temeter]

SRBs are still usefull and dirt cheap. The 23ton booster costs ~2700. That's half a skipper. The only real issue is the weight limit in career, which is easily solved in no time.