Resource Mining - Impressions and Questions

[SlabGizor117]

You will get planetary details in map view. You will get extreme detail on the NBS (but it only covers an 8 degree square). Solar panels are semi-ok (they help but are not perfect). You will get more mileage by attaching your drill or plunking your ISRU on something massive like your fuel storage or ore storage tanks in my experience.

Hmm, I dunno how I feel about that, it kinda sounds like a weird going-around-your-elbow-to-get-to-your-thumb unconventional fix, to just say, "You have to have a big part next to it". I understand you have to have something to absorb the heat, but I think it'd be easier and less confusing to either have a radiator part for it specifically, or make solar panels work better for it. I'm playing in Sandbox btw, Career is grindy for me. Will I still need an engineer?

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Oh also, what's NBS? XD

[andruszkow]

Oh also, what's NBS? XD

Narrow Band Scanner

[SlabGizor117]

Narrow Band Scanner

Hehe, I smart

[RoverDude]

Yes, you still need an engineer in sandbox.

[SlabGizor117]

Ok, thanks Rover! You're awesome

[Akinesis]

Just to back up RoverDude, I have done two streams with resources now. My first stream was on KSPTV, so I was rushing myself to just land on the Mun anywhere that had a hint of a resource deposit. It turned out that the landing site had a 2% yeild and the drills kept overheating. This took a loooong time to extract the ore. However, on my own personal stream last night we captured and drilled an asteroid that had 90% yield, and this was SUPER quick (we're talking seconds!) to fill the tanks. I had four gigantor solar panels and the drills (which were both shaded and cooled by the solar panels) didn't overheat at all (we timewarped to test). So as long as you have the right combination of equipment on the right spot, it really will be as instant as is sensibly possible.

TL;DR - if the resource system is used correctly, everything works well and works quickly. If you don't use the resource system properly, it really will punish you.

[RoverDude]

@Akinesis - ping me if you want me to hang out on your stream and answer resource questions

[Bobe]

After taking into consideration the things I learned in this thread, I landed a "base" of sorts on the Mun. This comprised a command pod for three kerbals, including an engineer, a trio of RCS engine and landing gear clusters, a large ore container with two drills, a converter module (mainly just to balance the CoM, but enables relocation), six large batteries and six Gigantor solar arrays, as well as various equipment like scanners.

However, the drills still overheat in a matter of minutes, with only a couple units of ore extracted. I'm finding it simply impossible to create any stable mining platform.

[RoverDude]

Sandbox or career? What level of engineer? What's your ore abundance where you are mining?

[lirg03]

@RoverDude,

After watching Das's stream yesterday, I kept wondering if we will get something like a stock radiator in the future? Using solar panels feels 'wrong' and unfinished for me.

[RoverDude]

Actually, having the back of a solar panel radiate heat is kinda a thing since they face opposite the sun (if tracked). But I'm for the idea of radiators in stock (speaking purely as a guy who writes code and makes mods, not for squad in any way shape or form).

[monstah]

(snip)

Also - regarding the long extraction times. Remember that stock can continue drilling unattended. So go run other missions, etc. and when you come back to your mining station, you may well be brimming with ore This was also a design choice because watching drills is not fun, and artificially increasing the drill rate to compensate for a lack of an unattended processing mechanic is, IMO, not the best design choice.

I find your answer great, but would like to point out that ScanSat scanning also continues unattended. So it's not just an unfun bit you timewarp your way past, but a time where you might do some other stuff (involving some eventual timewarps) and come back to find the planet scanned.

[RoverDude]

I find your answer great, but would like to point out that ScanSat scanning also continues unattended. So it's not just an unfun bit you timewarp your way past, but a time where you might do some other stuff (involving some eventual timewarps) and come back to find the planet scanned.

And in my experience, most people just warp in place for about ten seconds to get the resource scan, hence the design choice. And to finish up on an earlier bit - there is a huge difference with auto-complete (well, minus several seconds for data transmission) of something finite vs. auto-complete of drilling, because the latter has no upper bound hence there's nothing to auto-complete

I totally get that some folks may not like this design choice, but I'll stand that for this particular mechanic, and within the context of the resource system and it's entire experiences as a whole, was the right choice and one I stand by.

[joinedup]

Not in favor of the instant planetary scan*, I appreciate people play the game differently but for me a large part of it is about resource management, working within constraints and trying to find creative solutions.

90% of people might just achieve polar orbit and hit timewarp, but perhaps some of the 10% would have fun trying to beat the constraint by some creative method which they'd enjoy doing - perhaps having several scanners in different polar orbits to finish in less game time (dunno if that'd work but I suppose it could be made to) or doing something else while the scan was completing. IMO it's less fun than it might have been.

also pretty sure nearly 100% of people timewarp planetary transfer but that doesn't mean the rules of time within the game are wrong, you've sort of broken the consistency of the game by having something that shouldn't logically be instant happen instantly here.

* on principle... I've not actually had chance to play 1.0 yet - downloading seems throttled

PS many thanks for the extra resources and constraints you have introduced in the release though I look forward to managing them when I'm done downloading.

[lajoswinkler]

I like Kethane's need to actually let the satellite orbit and scan. That's not grinding. Grinding is when you need to do something repetitively to boost something.

This is just scanning and Kethane would show you how orbital height and inclination matters.

[RoverDude]

I like Kethane's need to actually let the satellite orbit and scan. That's not grinding. Grinding is when you need to do something repetitively to boost something.

This is just scanning and Kethane would show you how orbital height and inclination matters.

And I would generally leave my PC on overnight when I did a scan

On a side note... have you done flybys with the NBS yet?

Something I expect is getting lost in the noise is that there are multiple scanner mechanics involved. That large scanner is not particularly accurate, it's more of a general idea of planetary soil composition and resource probability based on a limited data set (hence the surface scanner and the narrow band scanner).

[WanderingKid]

Nevermind. PEBCAK issue.

Must click on 'Ore' after focusing on planet and opening interface.

Edited April 29, 2015 by WanderingKid

[lajoswinkler]

And I would generally leave my PC on overnight when I did a scan

On a side note... have you done flybys with the NBS yet?

Something I expect is getting lost in the noise is that there are multiple scanner mechanics involved. That large scanner is not particularly accurate, it's more of a general idea of planetary soil composition and resource probability based on a limited data set (hence the surface scanner and the narrow band scanner).

I've tried to do it with the narrow band scanner and it did not work even though I was below its limiting height.

Now that I've thoroughly tried stock resource scanning I must say I'm disappointed. A lot. Here's why:

a) Instant results? Honestly what the hell? That's perhaps the stupidest idea to be implemented in the game. Few seconds and there is is, whole planetary body scanned.

Observer can see up to 50% of the sphere's surface (50% if he's at an infinite distance) and here we have other hemisphere scanned, too. Totally unrealistic.

Resource grid suffers from cartographic projection distortion. Not a useful thing, and certainly not an aesthetic one, either.

I haven't tried Karbonite, but I have lots of experience with Kethane.

You had to work and think to get Kethane's resource map. You had to take into consideration your orbital period, inclination, rotational period of the body you're orbiting and your orbital height.

Sometimes interesting patterns would appear, showing how one particular set of variables results in some areas never being scanned. More than a hint of complex math there.

Kethane also had a fantastic hexagonal grid which would cover the entire body without being distorted. It would give a sound when an ore field was discovered.

Don't get me wrong, v1.0 is more than great, but this is really bad.

[Geschosskopf]

Hey! I can answer a few questions, and maybe provide some insight. Usual full disclosure, I authored the code for Karbonite, it's back-end framework (Regolith), as well as the stock. Also note that these are my opinions as a designer of a game system, and in no way reflect the official opinion of Squad, etc. etc.

Thanks for your explanations. I'm very pleasantly surprised to find stock resource mining (I'd assumed that was dead and buried) in 1.0, and I think you made good design choices with the stock system. Sure, it's different from all the previous mods (all of which I've used extensively) but that's a good thing.

Anyway, thanks for all the hard work.

[RoverDude]

Sorry to hear you're disappointed, but glad you're enjoying the rest of the game. Rock on.

[JTpopcorn]

Hey everyone wings make very good radiators to cool you crafts. Remember heat flow is currently conductive, and heat can be radiated.

[dryer_lint]

Just a suggestion: If you're unwilling to go for the real-time discovery and scanning (which I understand 100%, I've used SCANSAT before...) perhaps implement some sort of animation as the planet is scanned? I'd be fine if the map was revealed over several seconds, but the insta-click looks rather unprofessional.

[gavman420SSJ]

i would really like to see someone's successful space mining rig

[goldenpsp]

I've tried to do it with the narrow band scanner and it did not work even though I was below its limiting height.

Now that I've thoroughly tried stock resource scanning I must say I'm disappointed. A lot. Here's why:

a) Instant results? Honestly what the hell? That's perhaps the stupidest idea to be implemented in the game. Few seconds and there is is, whole planetary body scanned.

Observer can see up to 50% of the sphere's surface (50% if he's at an infinite distance) and here we have other hemisphere scanned, too. Totally unrealistic.

Resource grid suffers from cartographic projection distortion. Not a useful thing, and certainly not an aesthetic one, either.

I haven't tried Karbonite, but I have lots of experience with Kethane.

http://i2.minus.com/imSOOnbstUjd.png

You had to work and think to get Kethane's resource map. You had to take into consideration your orbital period, inclination, rotational period of the body you're orbiting and your orbital height.

Sometimes interesting patterns would appear, showing how one particular set of variables results in some areas never being scanned. More than a hint of complex math there.

http://i.imgur.com/5V48YKC.png

Kethane also had a fantastic hexagonal grid which would cover the entire body without being distorted. It would give a sound when an ore field was discovered.

Don't get me wrong, v1.0 is more than great, but this is really bad.

And if Kethane ever had background scanning I maybe would have stuck with it, but having to spend all that time scanning while also having to be focused on that planet was just really bad

[Geschosskopf]

Now that I've thoroughly tried stock resource scanning I must say I'm disappointed. A lot. Here's why:

a) Instant results? Honestly what the hell? That's perhaps the stupidest idea to be implemented in the game. Few seconds and there is is, whole planetary body scanned.

Observer can see up to 50% of the sphere's surface (50% if he's at an infinite distance) and here we have other hemisphere scanned, too. Totally unrealistic.

But OTOH, don't forget that Kerbals have been observing all their neighboring planets for centuries with telescopes, spectrometers, and all that, so they already have a pretty good idea of what the surfaces of planets are made of even before they send a probe there, same as we do in real life. Personally, I've always thought it silly that the game gives you absolutely zero knowledge about the other planets, not even maps and rough biome maps. So, instant scanning? Given that the orbital scanner is so vague, I see it as no more than an abstraction of centuries of ground-based observations you should really already know.

I haven't tried Karbonite, but I have lots of experience with Kethane.

You had to work and think to get Kethane's resource map. You had to take into consideration your orbital period, inclination, rotational period of the body you're orbiting and your orbital height.

I've used both Kethane and Karbonite quite extensively--all my career games have revolved around one or the other (see various "Kethane/Karbonite Travelling Circus" threads in the mission report forum). And I submit that with Kethane, scanning was both highly unrealistic (no beam spread regardless of altitude) and horrible, horrible torture for the player. There was no working or thinking involved, you just did the trivial task of putting yourself in the proper orbit that you already knew well in advance, and then you had to sit there for hours and hours due to the inability of the scanners to work at high warps and having to keep focus on that ship or the scanners wouldn't work at all. Scanning for Kethane was the exact opposite of fun and engaging gameplay. I'd rather gouge my eyes out with a fork, and that way of scanning needs to be knocked in the head and buried in an unmarked grave at midnight.

Karbonite has 2 ways to scan. If you just use its own scanner, you don't get much useful info. You can see the whole hemisphere below you immediately but the resolution is quite low and it fades away as the satellite moves. OTOH, you could use SCANsat, which gives you exact info but requires flying over the whole surface. Again, getting into the right orbit for that is trivial and the scanning takes time, but at least it works at all warp speeds and you can go fly other ships while you wait.

I much prefer Karbonite to Kethane for this reason above all others. Plus, Kethane distributions are arbitary, taking no account of the terrain, so on Laythe it's pretty much all uselessly under the ocean. Karbonite, however, is based on the terrain. Kethane is available only in relatively small quantities and can be used up, so is really only good at supporting small-scale exploration trips. Karbonite, OTOH, is available in unlmited amounts so can support truly industrial consumption for large, permanent colonies and bases.

But in either case, scanning is a doddle to set up--it's just a question of the player's time, not his effort. The proper orbital parameters are well-known, or can be calculated or even derived experimentally without too much effort. And in both cases, the scanning process is just a hurdle on the path to actually extracting and using the resources, which is the whole point of having resources at all. Everybody tries to minimize the time and effort needed to do it so they can get on with what they really want to do in the game. So the sooner we can get to the exploitation phase, the better IMHO.