No more SSTO's

[Roflcopterkklol]

Well SSTO's (from the space plane hanger) are dead, even if someone does actually manage to get one into orbit they will never be useful for anything other than crew transfers, using one for payloads is a fools dream, heck even leaving LKO is a fools dream with this new aero...

I get the distinct feeling that the devs did not even test SSTO's in the new aero considering even the stock SSTO (The Stearwing D45) does not get close to orbiting when it does in all previous versions of the game with ease...

This is the best i have been able to do in my own craft (i build single stage to Mun craft normally, SSTO's used easy for me)

So why have Turbo jet engines been nerfed so much?

The maximum speed achievable using jet engines is now 1200m/s which you can only achieve under 20km which causes your plane to explode from heat...

Up until 20km the new aerodynamics are great, then you hit 20km and jet engines die, nothing you can do to stop it happening either meaning the fastest you can possibly get a jet powered craft to go is 1200m/s because of the heat below 20km meaning you need to carry enough LF/O for over 1000m/s of delta V to get your craft to orbit which is just absurd.

This is made so damned frustrating by the fact that the craft i cant get into orbit in 1.0 would go to the mun, then to minmus and then come back to kerbin without refueling if i loaded it in 0.90....

Edited April 29, 2015 by Roflcopterkklol

[Whackjob]

Dude, I got an Arkingthaad tower lander into orbit as an SSTO. I wasn't even trying for SSTO. That thing had probably 16-20 of the largest fuel tanks. I even managed to reach the Mun and almost land on it.

Take my advice. All the tricks you learned previously? Throw them out! Start again from the beginning. You'll go crazy if you keep doing what worked in 0.90 and expect it to work here.

[A_name]

Well that sucks

[rodion_herrera]

I beg to differ.

So far I've built four winged-SSTOs and they all reached LKO and I was also able to land all back in KSC. Here is what I noticed about my builds--ironically it gets easier with larger and larger spaceplanes. Which basically means, for a larger design, I can squeeze in a payload bay, and thus making it useful for station building. I will post a video soon, but one of my SSTO successes are already posted in another thread that talks about SSTOs.

Here is one successful design: http://imgur.com/a/Koq3a

Edited April 29, 2015 by rodion_herrera

[Roflcopterkklol]

Dude, I got an Arkingthaad tower lander into orbit as an SSTO. I wasn't even trying for SSTO. That thing had probably 16-20 of the largest fuel tanks. I even managed to reach the Mun and almost land on it.

Take my advice. All the tricks you learned previously? Throw them out! Start again from the beginning. You'll go crazy if you keep doing what worked in 0.90 and expect it to work here.

I don't like rockets, my White lightning mk5 (the previous version of this craft) is a single stage to mun using 2 turbo jets 1 nuclear engine and 4 rockomax engines, all the variety in the space plane hanger is gone now and replaced by "use rapiers to get to LKO, have fun"

[rodion_herrera]

I don't like rockets, my White lightning mk5 (the previous version of this craft) is a single stage to mun using 2 turbo jets 1 nuclear engine and 4 rockomax engines, all the variety in the space plane hanger is gone now and replaced by "use rapiers to get to LKO, have fun"

Then why post a thread with such a general over-arching statement? Your thread then, should be entitled "No more SSTO's for guys like me who don't like rockets" or something like that, not a general statement containing remarks that almost claim that using RAPIERs are lame.

[Roflcopterkklol]

Then why post a thread with such a general over-arching statement? Your thread then, should be entitled "No more SSTO's for guys like me who don't like rockets" or something like that, not a general statement containing remarks that almost claim that using RAPIERs are lame.

Who builds a non plane SSTO?

The only ones i ever see are lifting rockets and they were air hoggers which used turbo jets to get up to orbital velocity before going above 40km which will not work anymore...

As far as rapiers go...

Sue me for not wanting to be stuck with a single type of enigine when building space planes, i like the ability to make a useful plane out of a combination of jet/rocket engines.

Even saying that the rapiers are still useless because you need to carry 1000m/s of delta v to escape the atmosphere, never mind any maneuvers in space or orbit, rendering SSTO's useless.

Whats the point of the large cargo bays? they cant be used.

Or do i build a 100 ton SSTO to deliver something in a small mk2 cargo bay to a 70km orbit and act like im enjoying myself when i know it could be better lol?

The devs dun goofed.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Roflcopterkklol

[regex]

Basically things got more realistic. If SSTOs were as easy IRL as they were pre-1.0 we'd probably have a Mars colony by now.

Try igniting your rockets lower in the atmosphere.

[Roflcopterkklol]

Basically things got more realistic. If SSTOs were as easy IRL as they were pre-1.0 we'd probably have a Mars colony by now.

Try igniting your rockets lower in the atmosphere.

Because sacrificing fun for realism is not always a good thing.

[Fel]

I don't like rockets, my White lightning mk5 (the previous version of this craft) is a single stage to mun using 2 turbo jets 1 nuclear engine and 4 rockomax engines, all the variety in the space plane hanger is gone now and replaced by "use rapiers to get to LKO, have fun"

Oh come now, the air-breathing engines were never balanced to begin with which was why people were fond of space planes. While they still don't chew fuel like they should, they are, at least, not as much of a cheat as before.

[dryer_lint]

Basically things got more realistic.

Regex, are you squealing with happiness right now?

[regex]

Because sacrificing fun for realism is not always a good thing.

I've been having an absolute blast with 1.0 so far. It's been a long time since stock was this much fun.

- - - Updated - - -

Regex, are you squealing with happiness right now?

I'm pretty happy with stock.

[Renegrade]

Basically things got more realistic. If SSTOs were as easy IRL as they were pre-1.0 we'd probably have a Mars colony by now.

Or two or three.. Heck, the Skylon project is going ahead even though it's actually slower (and much less efficient) than the old turbojets in air-breathing mode, and has to reach a much higher speed in the end than any stock-scale KSP vessel.

Because sacrificing fun for realism is not always a good thing.

Sacrificing game balance for "fun" is not always a good thing either. Especially when overcoming a challenge is ever so satisfying. I'm actually looking forward to making some SSTO-planes (note that 'SSTO' absolutely does not automatically mean a plane-type vessel) now that it isn't "#lol on some turbojets and RCS your way into circularization".

I support the broad, heavy duty nerfs 100%.

Anyhow, if you're REALLY super sad about no #lolturbojets, I would happily make a little MM config for you that would make them similar to 0.90 performance. Well, I'm not good at things that AREN'T nerfs, but I'm sure I could come up with something by just running the nerf process in reverse heh

[Roflcopterkklol]

I've been having an absolute blast with 1.0 so far. It's been a long time since stock was this much fun.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm pretty happy with stock.

I have been having fun with it too, up until 20km altitude, there is no reason for jet engines to stop working so early at the very least 1800m/s should be achievable at 30km...

[godefroi]

I have been having fun with it too, up until 20km altitude, there is no reason for jet engines to stop working so early at the very least 1800m/s should be achievable at 30km...

Except the fact that there's practically no air up there? What did you want your jet engines to breathe?

[regex]

I have been having fun with it too, up until 20km altitude, there is no reason for jet engines to stop working so early at the very least 1800m/s should be achievable at 30km...

The SR-71 set a height record of 25,900 meters. On Kerbin's smaller atmosphere, accounting for scale height, I think 20km sounds about right for the most powerful jet engines we have. Basically we're pretty much spot-on. Ignite your rockets earlier.

[Brotoro]

I got my old SSTO Crew Carrier rocket to orbit on the first try. Unfortunately, it didn't have much fuel left in orbit, and some parts exploded off of it on reentry.

So below is a cut-down four-kerbal version that got to orbit with 551 m/s of delta-V to spare. And the secret to getting it back down safely was the addition of three speed brakes (the speed brakes keep it nice and stable through entry, too).

[rodion_herrera]

...there is no reason for jet engines to stop working so early at the very least 1800m/s should be achievable at 30km...

The SR-71 attained a max altitude of about 25,000 meters, at a speed of about 950 m/s. I STILL wouldn't expect that an SR-71 would go orbital if a pair of SRB's or rockets were strapped onto it, if only for the external temperature build up, considering there's still around 80,000 meters to go til "space".

I always wished that KSP's aero would conform to this, and it has, and so I'm quite happy about that. So I don't really know what you're complaining about.

Edited April 29, 2015 by rodion_herrera

[Roflcopterkklol]

The SR-71 set a height record of 25,900 meters. On Kerbin's smaller atmosphere, accounting for scale height, I think 20km sounds about right for the most powerful jet engines we have. Basically we're pretty much spot-on. Ignite your rockets earlier.

The SR-72 if it is ever built will be capable of an estimated speed of 2,000m/s, and again, igniting rockets earlier is all fine and dandy but you need to carry 1000m/s worth of delta V just to leave the atmosphere.

my SSTO is already 56 tons and is already on the balance between its TWR without getting to orbit carring over 2.3k LF/O because of this, don't tell me to ignite my rockets earlier i am already lol...

Edited April 29, 2015 by Roflcopterkklol

[Red Dwarf]

[snip] even the stock SSTO (The Stearwing D45) does not get close to orbiting when it does in all previous versions of the game with ease...

I thought the old stearwing couldn't normally make it to orbit. The 909's always put it juuust shy, but maybe I was just following a poor flight profile. Rune managed to get an SSTO up and running within a day, and Winterowl had one that worked even before 1.0 had officially released. We just need to give things a little time. Let the gadgeteer geniuses tinker for a bit, get used to the new systems, and then find ways to exploit it! XD

[regex]

The SR-72 if it is ever built will be capable of an estimated speed of 2,000m/s, and again, igniting rockets earlier is all fine and dandy but you need to carry 1000m/s worth of delta V just to leave the atmosphere.

2000m/s is still about 7.5km/s shy of the delta-V needed to make LEO. So, you know, the extra fuel fraction you need to carry to make LKO is still much, much better than here on Earth.

my SSTO is already 56 tons and is already on the balance between its TWR without getting to orbit carring over 2.3k LF/O

You might have to ... adapt to the way the game works now. LRN2KSP or something. Things are different, it makes getting to orbit all that much more satisfying.

[Roflcopterkklol]

I got my old SSTO Crew Carrier rocket to orbit on the first try. Unfortunately, it didn't have much fuel left in orbit, and some parts exploded off of it on reentry.

So below is a cut-down four-kerbal version that got to orbit with 551 m/s of delta-V to spare. And the secret to getting it back down safely was the addition of three speed brakes (the speed brakes keep it nice and stable through entry, too).

http://i.imgur.com/Db6ESdC.jpg

good to know rapier rocket ssto's still work at least, some wiggle room with them and nuclear engines.

[Whackjob]

SSTO'd that and I wasn't even trying to. Even managed to kick it out to the Mun and hit it.

[Roflcopterkklol]

2000m/s is still about 7.5km/s shy of the delta-V needed to make LEO. So, you know, the extra fuel fraction you need to carry to make LKO is still much, much better than here on Earth.

You might have to ... adapt to the way the game works now. LRN2KSP or something. Things are different, it makes getting to orbit all that much more satisfying.

its not very satisfying knowing the best i can ever hope to get no matter how good of a craft i build will be around a 100km LKO.

[regex]

its not very satisfying knowing the best i can ever hope to get no matter how good of a craft i build will be around a 100km LKO.

Really? Man, that's a really depressing attitude. This person managed to get 46 tons to orbit on a spaceplane. If all that was fuel, imagine where they could go.