Tech Tree too Hard? Grindy?

[spinomonkey]

Game Type: Normal, Career. Over 800 hours of experience.

Issue: Gaining science is pretty hard- which makes upgrading the Tech tree additionally difficult. I really enjoy that contracts don't offer a lot of science, instead encouraging players to go out and explore. But in the early game it's pretty hard to explore- even Kerbin. Which leaves players with grindy contracts they have to mine for resources in the meantime.

How I've played (for perspective): It might just be me. I've cleared almost tier three of the tech tree, and I've focused as much as I can on space planes so I can take on contracts that require multiple crew reports or temp reports (there's a decent science/cash payout there) But I still don't have a fast enough ship to top 16,800 meters without stalling and falling back to Kerbin- which has limited my ability to take contracts. On the other hand, due to the atmosphere pushing my rockets around- it's made launching with large liquid fuel rockets pretty difficult to control. Which forces me to use solid states as a first stage- which often burn up my smaller/lighter craft. It's been a bit of a vicious cycle. Needless to say, I'm grinding away at contracts or collecting science where I can- I just upgraded my R&D department, so I can finally take surface samples- that's a gold mine for science. But targeted sub orbital landings (or a proper space plane for targeted biome landings) are pretty much out of the question at the moment. Which means more launches > which means I need more cash > which means I need to grind away at more contracts.

Solution: Though I think the contract payouts should be tweaked slightly. As this seems a bit difficult for a 'normal' game. I wonder if a better science archive could solve this problem. Part of the problem is knowing where to gain science from. As you collect science instruments over time, it's hard to keep track of what biomes you've done what science to- or where those biomes are at all. What would be cool- would be to have a science tool that works much like the mining tools. You'd scan the area you're flying over- it would collect info that would be displayed on the map and you'd have a very quick visual reference of where the biomes were, and what you have and haven't collected in regards to science.

It wouldn't hand you the science per se. But it would give players the tools needed to do it themselves.

[Kegereneku]

This has been the subject of much discussion, so far this topic have a solution I would support.

The grindiness of KSP is bad in itself.

But the rigidity of its Tech-tree (which was supposedly revisited, but didn't really change) make it worse. For now I'm hopping they did make it moddable enough for modders to come up with a better solution.

Myself I would favor a "Explosion-tree" where the player can research/buy part individually amongst technology-tier based on the level of the R&D building (see the link above).

The question isn't (only) to admit whether or not a SPACE PROGRAM can come-up with groundbreaking invention like LADDER or SMALL CUBIC STRUT, but to have the players choose, with sacrifice : which road fit his immediate need and what he can sacrifice for now.

So that at least, you don't 2,5m fuel tank and 2,5m engines/structures in the wrong order.

Not to forget that there IS better than starting manned.

[Starwhip]

I find that it isn't about gaining science as it is about gaining funds to upgrade your launch pad and VAB so that then you can get the science.

Which, once you realize it and adapt, isn't too demanding.

[Joonatan1998]

Too hard: no, you can unlock the whole tree without ever leaving the kerbin system.

Too grindy: ...maybe?

[CaptRobau]

I quit the career mode because of that too. I hoped it had changed, but the early tech tree is still pretty much the same. Their efforts seem to have been more towards the late game/spaceplanes. Things that I think would improve the early flow (both for newbies and more experienced players):

-Invert the progression of each size of liquid fuel tanks. At the moment you get the smallest 1.25m tank, then the 2.5m, etc. This means you make any length of spacecraft/rocket right from the get go. Even the part limits of the VAB or launch pad (don't remember which one) are easy to circumvent after single reasonably cheap upgrade. If you start with longest tank each time, it means you'll be forced to make large, inelegant rockets first before you can transition to more finely tailored designs. That seems to me a much more interesting path.

-Make the early probes a bit more useful. Add a little bit of torque so that a satellite that is little more than the probe can still be turned. And make all probes at least be a SAS Level 0. Having the Stayputnik be SAS-less means unmanned is too big a challenge for new players and a useless part for more experienced ones.

-Move batteries and fuel cells up in the tree. Power is necessary to make unmanned missions doable, but since early battery designs are radial or small it means you'll be forced to launch an ugly probe covered in batteries before you can move onto solar panels (after which you'll rarely use batteries again). The fuel cells would be useful in the early game to replenish power, but are made useless because they appear after all the useful solar panels are already unlocked.

[Atlanticrash]

Really? I'm loving normal career! I've already landed and returned from Duna, and the game's providing a nice challenge.

[Xacktar]

I'm running into problems with career as well. It is MUCH more challenging than before and I've been stuck quite a few times.

I'm not having fun anymore... and that is sad. I'm slowly grinding through the only profitable missions, which are rescues and satellite deployment since tourism's random-gen makes most of them too difficult for the payout and base-establishing is destroyed by the price of hiring crew.

So I'm here to give feedback!

[K3RBAL KOL4]

I think your issue is that you are used to Science being rewarded to you as part of a contract reward along with $ and rep. This is just one of the many things about pre 1.0 that we all need to let go of. I had the same feeling of it seeming more like a chore to get science than fun until I realized that you can get Science from playing around with the equipment you have, no matter how low-tec.

I created a little 'pod-hopper' that I would launch to each building/area just of the KSP. I would launch, go in a direction with a pod and science mods and bail from the rocket and try to land in the general area of where I was aiming with parachutes. Doing all the science just from each building area at the KSC gave me hundreds of Science, then the challenge of tossing a rocket into 1 of each Kerbin biome gave me a few hundred more. Tbh the trial and error of getting to each spot was entertaining. I even landed the top of the VAB by accident.

If you get science as you go you will have more than enough before you know it and it can be entertaining as well.

[Arsonide]

base-establishing is destroyed by the price of hiring crew.

Base contracts do not require crew, they require crew capacity.

[saskwach]

I kind of like the new science balance. Before, I could just build the rockets I wanted almost like in sandbox mode. Now I find myself building weird contraptions just to get to the Mun, then running out of fuel on the return trip and having to send out rescue missions. Part of it is the aerodynamics model, which doesn't lend itself to as much cheese, but part of it is definitely the scarcer science. Maybe I'd feel differently if I hadn't restarted for 1.0.2.

On the other hand, the early suborbital tourism missions are just money factories. You can mine them ad nauseam until you actually achieve orbit of Kerbin. It's like printing money, but does feel pretty grindy. I do kind of like that approach to balance though. If it's easy, move on. If it's hard, grind to get better. It's easier than trying to balance an optimal path for people with different skill levels and goals.

Edited May 2, 2015 by saskwach

[r4pt0r]

I was almost stuck for a bit, that initial 30 part VAB limit and the 18 ton lainchpad limit just kill me. the upgrade to the launchpad wasn't too economically crippling, so I can have heavier ships now, but I look forward to getting that 30 part cap out of my way.

[Superfluous J]

I think "normal" is just about right as far as amount of science gained and how much each tech tree node costs. I also think that the money is about right for what everything costs.

I do however take some issue with what things cost relative to each other. Hiring a single Kerbal should not cost more than a new rocket. I thought it odd that I could get 500,000 roots off of my 2nd launch (my first orbit) but 3 upgrades later I was back to almost nil. And I hadn't built a rocket yet. Luckily, the rockets in this (rocket building) game are by far the cheapest things to build.

And why are the first two 2.5 meter parts you get a decoupler and an adapter? There is absolutely nothing the decoupler will fit to except the adapter, and the adapter's only purpose would be to widen your craft so it can use that overlarge decopuler. Who thought that was a good idea? And right about the time you're unlocking that essentially useless stair-step of a tech node, you start building rockets that you'd really like to slap fairings around. So why not put a fairing in that node instead of those useless parts? Put them a bit further up so you actually unlock them when you need them?

But as far as grind/play ratio, I think normal mode - for my abilities and preferences - is just about right.

[Lorunification]

As some people already mentioned it is, in fact, still possible to unlock the whole tree by landing on one moon and orbiting the other. Even if you don't coast over every single biome. So the fact that the tech tree is too hard and/or requires grinding is kind of proven wrong.

[Cdr_Zeta]

Hello,

If the last post is the case then yes - the tree is too easy. There is a total of science 10 times that of the tree...my tree totals are about ten times stock as well; I have made a few compensation changes to have parts available and not available, and some nodes available prior to opening up the new R&D upgrade (that is because I would prefer the node-science rates for the R&D to be higher; like 150 at least) .

I try to make a tree that is somewhat grindy; it takes a week to get to level 2 R&D with about 20-30 hours of gameplay in my SIM.

Zeta