[1.12.x] Cryogenic Engines: Liquid Hydrogen and Methane Rockets! (August 13, 2024)

[juanml82]

21 hours ago, FiiZzioN said:

Will Liquid Methane + LOX tanks get added to this? Seems like a no-brainer with Raptor variants and Blue Origin engines in your "NFLaunchVehicles" mod. Sorry if this has been asked earlier, I'm posting this and then I have to get to work on a project for my job. If anyone has any details and could share, I'd greatly appreciate it!

I second this. I was thinking about starting a new game with real fuels, then I realized I wouldn't want to go through many types of hypergolic fuels when only 1 or 2 are better than the rest, nor plenty of RCS fuels... so at the end, "liquid fuel" + LH2 + methane + "monoprop" + argon + xenon is more than good enough for me

[Nertea]

Cryogenic Engines 0.5.9

•  KSP 1.3.1
•  Dependency updates
•  CryoTanks 0.4.8
  •  Tanks no longer use up all EC

On 10/15/2017 at 10:15 AM, FiiZzioN said:

Will Liquid Methane + LOX tanks get added to this? Seems like a no-brainer with Raptor variants and Blue Origin engines in your "NFLaunchVehicles" mod. Sorry if this has been asked earlier, I'm posting this and then I have to get to work on a project for my job. If anyone has any details and could share, I'd greatly appreciate it!

No plans. Not much point, it's just in the middle of the two fuels. If you want that, there's RF. 

[Elthy]

Ive found a bug when using this mod combined with your Near Future Launch Vehicles: The mass of the structural 5m Nosecone (of NFLV) goes to -2 tons after installing Cryogenic Engines. This results in funny physics weirdness...

To reproduce:

1. Install NFLV in a clean install -> Nosecone without tanks has a mass of 2 tons

2. Install Cryogenic Engines -> Nosecone without tanks has a negative mass

[Nertea]

Thanks for the note, it will be fixed next NFLV version. 

[Elthy]

Is it a small config rewrite? If yes, could you post it here so we can fix it (and continue building) before you upload the next version?

[Nertea]

Check the dev branch of the main repo it should be there.

[Cawdeen]

So I'm curious about something. I've had this mod for a little while and I feel like I'm missing something. I find its always more efficient to use the normal mixed fuel in pretty much every scenario. If I think of an upper stage just in terms of mass and delta V, any way you look at it, the cryogenic engine is the worse choice. I can get more (future) delta V into orbit that weighs less, costs less, and takes up less room if I go with regular mixed fuel.

I'm assuming I'm missing something or I've installed this wrong.

Other than the fact that I almost never use them, they look great.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Cawdeen

[AccidentalDisassembly]

1 hour ago, Cawdeen said:

So I'm curious about something. I've had this mod for a little while and I feel like I'm missing something. I find its always more efficient to use the normal mixed fuel in pretty much every scenario. If I think of an upper stage just in terms of mass and delta V, any way you look at it, the cryogenic engine is the worse choice. I can get more (future) delta V into orbit that weighs less, costs less, and takes up less room if I go with regular mixed fuel.

I'm assuming I'm missing something or I've installed this wrong.

Other than the fact that I almost never use them, they look great.

Huh, I was just thinking this myself. I've had roughly the same experience; I don't understand the use case of the cryo engines over others. They *seem* to have lower TWR than most and to require vastly more tankage - not just somewhat more. Their higher ISP doesn't *seem* to balance things out to where they're preferable, but maybe I'm also missing something. I'd like to figure it out though! Is there some situation where LH2/Ox is the better way to go?

Edited November 3, 2017 by AccidentalDisassembly

[blowfish]

2 hours ago, AccidentalDisassembly said:

Huh, I was just thinking this myself. I've had roughly the same experience; I don't understand the use case of the cryo engines over others. They *seem* to have lower TWR than most and to require vastly more tankage - not just somewhat more. Their higher ISP doesn't *seem* to balance things out to where they're preferable, but maybe I'm also missing something. I'd like to figure it out though! Is there some situation where LH2/Ox is the better way to go?

You'll see the most benefit for long-burning upper stages.  The tankage looks like a lot more but it actually masses less.

[Cawdeen]

I actually experimented a bit and discovered that the main benefit really only shows up in low TWR examples.  My experiment looked like this:

Since the efficiency of these engines is supposed to be greatest in vacuum that was my focus. I used mechjeb's delta V calculations. I would pick a number like 3,000 delta V and make a stage using cryo engines and lox/H combo fuel and another using stock vacuum engines and mixed fuel. At TWR greater than 2 it didnt make sense to use the cryo engines, not only because of the size of the stage, but because the mass of the stage that gave 3k DV was greater than the mass of the stock stage that gave 3k DV. Regardless of that stages engine ISP it would take more lower stage Delta V to get that 3k Delta V into orbit so its worthless. Lower TWR stages seem to get lighter than the stock stages i guess because the cryo engines are heavier. At a TWR of 1 the cryo stage had about 5% more delta V than the stock (stages were the same TWR and same overall mass, meaning any lower stages would be the same for both to get to LKO. At .50 TWR the cryo stage had close to 10% more delta V than the stock. At a TWR of .30 the cryo stage had about 12% more Delta V. Good to know.

I guess this info is stated already on page 1 but in the past I was always shooting for higher TWR and the cryo stage always had more mass than the stock for the same DV. I didn't see the point before but now I get it.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Cawdeen

[doorhanger93]

Accidental post oops

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by doorhanger93

[coyotesfrontier]

Is there any way to disable the boil-off for LH2? As ElectricCharge generation/use is inaccurate at high time warp, my tanks still lose LH2 even with a proper electric setup. I'm thinking about deleting SimpleBoiloff.dll, but I'm worried that it'll break other parts of the mod.

[Nertea]

1 hour ago, coyotesfrontier said:

Is there any way to disable the boil-off for LH2? As ElectricCharge generation/use is inaccurate at high time warp, my tanks still lose LH2 even with a proper electric setup. I'm thinking about deleting SimpleBoiloff.dll, but I'm worried that it'll break other parts of the mod.

Well, there's a mod called DynamicBatteryStorage that ships with this package. It resolves those kind of issues... so you may have run into some kind of unhandled edge case. If you could provide the following please:

• Screenshots of the DBS debug window (Ctrl+Shift+K) in x1 timewarp and in the problem timewarp
• Screenshots of the vessel in question with PAWs open for the tanks that are losing fuel and preferrably the power producer, again, at x1 and the problem timewarp
• The log of these events
• A craft file with required modlist

This will help you and everyone else!

 

[coyotesfrontier]

18 hours ago, Nertea said:

Well, there's a mod called DynamicBatteryStorage that ships with this package. It resolves those kind of issues... so you may have run into some kind of unhandled edge case. If you could provide the following please:

• Screenshots of the DBS debug window (Ctrl+Shift+K) in x1 timewarp and in the problem timewarp
• Screenshots of the vessel in question with PAWs open for the tanks that are losing fuel and preferrably the power producer, again, at x1 and the problem timewarp
• The log of these events
• A craft file with required modlist

This will help you and everyone else!

 

Thanks for the response! I've linked to an Imgur album and two Dropbox downloads, which contain your requested items. Craft is fully stock aside from CryoEngines and its bundled mods.

Album

Log

Craft

[Nertea]

11 minutes ago, coyotesfrontier said:

Thanks for the response! I've linked to an Imgur album and two Dropbox downloads, which contain your requested items. Craft is fully stock aside from CryoEngines and its bundled mods.

Album

Log

Craft

That's pretty weird, haven't seen that before. It looks like there is some miscalculation of the RTG power production and possibly some derivative issues. 

I'll try to reproduce this when I next get some development time.

[Nertea]

23 hours ago, coyotesfrontier said:

Thanks for the response! I've linked to an Imgur album and two Dropbox downloads, which contain your requested items. Craft is fully stock aside from CryoEngines and its bundled mods.

Album

Log

Craft

Tracked down and corrected - there will be a new release on monday or tuesday with the fix. If you need it badly, you can get the .dll from the dev branch on git. 

Seems like there was a change to how some things were defined in 1.3.1 that I didn't notice. 

[Hardcard]

19 hours ago, Nertea said:

Tracked down and corrected - there will be a new release on monday or tuesday with the fix. If you need it badly, you can get the .dll from the dev branch on git. 

Seems like there was a change to how some things were defined in 1.3.1 that I didn't notice. 

Hey there Nertea. 

Is this the .dll you were referring to? > https://github.com/ChrisAdderley/DynamicBatteryStorage/tree/dev/GameData/DynamicBatteryStorage/Plugins

I've been trying it today, no luck so far, problem still persists. Btw, the issue is present even without Cryogenic Engines installed.  

If I remember correctly, there was a similar issue back in 1.3, but it could be "solved" just by running nuclear power generators at low output.

Now in 1.3.1 that trick doesn't work anymore, the only way to avoid massive LH2 boiloff is to run time warp from the tracking station screen.   

 

Here's my report:

Album

Log

Craft

This ship requires the following mods:

-KW Rocketry Rebalanced 3.2.3

-NovaPunch Continued 0.1.4.1

-Pretty much all your latest NFT releases

-Kerbal Atomics 0.4.9

-KSPIE 1.16.1  (required to load the ship, but it definitely isn't the culprit, since the issue was already there before I installed it) 

 

I'm also using the following mods, but I don't think they are required in order to load/use the ship. Also, I think these aren't the culprit, since the problem was already present before I installed them:

-Cryogenic Engines

-Heat Control

-TweakScale

The rest of mods I'm using are mostly cosmetic, with the exception of Kerbal Engineer Redux, Editor Extensions Redux, Real Chute , KerbalJointReinforcement, RCS Build Aid Continued, Docking Port Alignment Indicator, etc.

I would find it strange that these have anything to do with the problem, tbh.

 

Thanks for all your great mods and dedication!

 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Hardcard

[Nertea]

That looks like a completely separate issue. 

Those don't look like stock solar panel modules. Uninstall KSPIE and get back to me, I don't know what kind of crazy things that mod does to panels.

[Hardcard]

6 minutes ago, Nertea said:

That looks like a completely separate issue. 

Those don't look like stock solar panel modules. Uninstall KSPIE and get back to me, I don't know what kind of crazy things that mod does to panels.

Hi

Those solar panel modules are from your NFT Solar pack. KSPIE added more information to their PAWs (since it adds the option of powering them with lasers and stuff), but as I said, the problem was already there before I installed KSPIE.  

[Nertea]

*shrugs* that's the thing though... Solar panel detection was working fine last night. Since those panels aren't even being detected, I have to assume that something in your install is screwing with the modules.

I will of course have a look tonight before I do any release, but I can't support any advanced features with KSPIE installed. It makes too many changes to the game to ensure stability.

It's possible that your original problem was fixed with that update but there is another one related to panel detection that has been revealed.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Nertea

[Hardcard]

58 minutes ago, Nertea said:

*shrugs* that's the thing though... Solar panel detection was working fine last night. Since those panels aren't even being detected, I have to assume that something in your install is screwing with the modules.

I will of course have a look tonight before I do any release, but I can't support any advanced features with KSPIE installed. It makes too many changes to the game to ensure stability.

It's possible that your original problem was fixed with that update but there is another one related to panel detection that has been revealed.

No problem, mate.

I've removed KSPIE and redone the whole thing with a previous version of that vessel which didn't include any KSPIE parts. The problem persists, as I expected it would, 

Album

Log

Craft

 

 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Hardcard

[Hardcard]

I think I've finally figured it out! 

 

It wasn't KSPIE, it was freaking Kopernicus!!! I don't even recall installing it (or why I did it), . In any case, seems really strange that a planet mod would affect LH2 boiloff/power module detection like that...

After removing Kopernicus, I've run the test again with and without KSPIE, LH2 boiloff at 100000x time warp seems to be almost completely contained (there's still a tiny boiloff which only applies for a fraction of a second, but then it stabilizes at 0).

I'm gonna try with the old .dll (from Kerbal Atomics 0.4.9), now, see if something changes. 

EDIT: Tried with the old .dll (Kerbal Atomics 0.4.9) and didn't notice any difference. I forgot to mention that in order for the boiloff to be stopped, I've had to run my two MX-0 "KerboPower" fission generators at 80% (generating 46 electric charge each), any lower than that and the boiloff would return. Is it a coincidence that 46 electric charge is almost the exact amount consumed by each H1000-1152 Hydrogen tank?

It almost seems like the K90-ML Trio Solar Panels don't work properly at 100000x, although they're now correctly detected by BDS... 

Anyway, as long as those fission generators stop boiloff at 100000x, I'll be content. 

 

Btw, this is the ship I used for the latest tests (no KSPIE parts on it).  EDIT: here's an improved version of that same ship (improved staging and other minor stuff)

It requires the following mods:

-KW Rocketry Rebalanced 3.2.3

-NovaPunch Continued 0.1.4.1

-Latest NFT releases

-Kerbal Atomics 0.4.9

 

Edited November 27, 2017 by Hardcard

[Nertea]

20 hours ago, Hardcard said:

It wasn't KSPIE, it was freaking Kopernicus!!! I don't even recall installing it (or why I did it), . In any case, seems really strange that a planet mod would affect LH2 boiloff/power module detection like that...

 

Ah yes. Kopernicus replaces all the solar panel modules with its own so that it can handle multiple suns. I can resolve that.

 

20 hours ago, Hardcard said:

It almost seems like the K90-ML Trio Solar Panels don't work properly at 100000x, although they're now correctly detected by BDS... 

My superb test craft seems fine. 

However, I bit the bullet, downloaded those mods and opened your ship. It seems like there's another issue - at very high time warp, the Trio panels sometimes block themselves for a tiny fraction of a second when they're oriented at particular angles to the sun (at least that's what it seems to me - DBS corresponds to what's shown in the solar array PAW precisely, so the problem is there). That causes the "pulse" of low power on your ship. I'll look into this but this has historically been a very tough problem to solve with large solar arrays in general. 

I'm also not really sure why this occurs with your ship and not mine. Probably some anomaly related to how the panels are mounted.

 

edit - I made some tweaks to the location of the suncatcher that reduces the frequency of this problem. I have an NFS update ready that I will send off when I get a chance

 

Edited November 27, 2017 by Nertea

[Hardcard]

20 hours ago, Nertea said:

Ah yes. Kopernicus replaces all the solar panel modules with its own so that it can handle multiple suns. I can resolve that.

 

My superb test craft seems fine. 

However, I bit the bullet, downloaded those mods and opened your ship. It seems like there's another issue - at very high time warp, the Trio panels sometimes block themselves for a tiny fraction of a second when they're oriented at particular angles to the sun (at least that's what it seems to me - DBS corresponds to what's shown in the solar array PAW precisely, so the problem is there). That causes the "pulse" of low power on your ship. I'll look into this but this has historically been a very tough problem to solve with large solar arrays in general. 

I'm also not really sure why this occurs with your ship and not mine. Probably some anomaly related to how the panels are mounted.

 

edit - I made some tweaks to the location of the suncatcher that reduces the frequency of this problem. I have an NFS update ready that I will send off when I get a chance

 

 

Loved your test craft, 

Now that you mention the orientation of the solar panels, I'm thinking Editor Extensions Redux might've played a role in all this. I always use the custom angle snap this mod provides for all radial attachments. 

So I've removed the mod and reattached all radial components of my test ship (including the solar panels) using stock angle snap and... tadaaaa.

The electric discharge problems at high time warp seem to have almost disappeared (they are very sporadic now, electric charge remains full most of the time)...it's a bittersweet feeling, really, since I freaking love Editor Extensions and I freaking love your mods  

In any case, I'm attaching the modified test craft . Could you please confirm that the ship works as expected on your end too? 

If this turns out to be the issue... is there any way to make NFT Solar and Editor Extensions fully compatible? I mean, if it's just a matter of introducing new angle snap stuff in config files, I'll do it myself if need be, 

 

Thanks for your great support

EDIT: I've been playing around some more and I've noticed that when I disable both H1000-1152 Hydrogen tanks, something weird happens to LH2 boiloff. Electric discharge still happens (very sporadically), there's also marginal boiloff happening from time to time, but Kerbal Engineer Redux doesn't account for any DeltaV loss...that's weird, right? 

 

Edited November 28, 2017 by Hardcard

[Nertea]

 

On 11/27/2017 at 1:48 PM, Hardcard said:

If this turns out to be the issue... is there any way to make NFT Solar and Editor Extensions fully compatible? I mean, if it's just a matter of introducing new angle snap stuff in config files, I'll do it myself if need be, 

I'm not convinced that it's the reason. At any rate, stock pointing doesn't have much to do with my stuff... I don't control any of that code. You should get the new version of NFSolar though, I tested it with your ship and it seemed... better. 

On 11/27/2017 at 1:48 PM, Hardcard said:

EDIT: I've been playing around some more and I've noticed that when I disable both H1000-1152 Hydrogen tanks, something weird happens to LH2 boiloff. Electric discharge still happens (very sporadically), there's also marginal boiloff happening from time to time, but Kerbal Engineer Redux doesn't account for any DeltaV loss...that's weird, right? 

Like disabling the tank icon or something?

 

CryoEngines 0.5.10

• Updated DynamicBatteryStorage to 1.2.0
  •  Fixed a bug that caused the buffer to be destroyed every second time it was created
  •  Fixed solar panel handling when Kopernicus is installed