Squad is slowly reintroducing soup o' sphere with 1.01

[StevenJ]

http://kerbalx.com/Stevenj61/SP-101-Silversword

I had created this craft in 1.0, flew it to space, and survived re-entry. Now it can't even break mach one on ascent because of the 'drag fixes'. I checked the drag parameters now in the debug menu and the MK3 cockpit had something like 80 to 100 drag at just below mach 1! Really squad? Everything else in the update seemed fine but now MK3 bodies are way too hard to use for SSTO planes when it worked just fine literately yesterday. I'll even link my twitch stream where I built it live and flew it just fine in 1.0, now with 1.01 it's a brick all MKIII parts! Even after removing the MKIII cockpit with a MKII it still could just barely break mach 1! I have KER installed, TWR was well over 1, close to 1.3 to 1.5 and now nothing, can barely break mach 1 because of these 'supposed' drag fixes. Please lower the ridiculously high drag values on the MKIII parts! It's like soup o' sphere all over again for these parts! I even added an extra pair of rapiers to the craft totally 12! Still couldn't go faster than mach 1 with TWR greater than one above 10k!

[r4pt0r]

Squad is slowly reintroducing soup o' sphere with 1.01

By god, its the perfect crime!

but no, 1.0 was unbalanced in a few regards, and now your unbalanced craft has been rebalanced by the patch, it is just a bit inadequate.

[RocketPilot573]

So let me guess, it's most efficient to fly a rocket straight up to 10 km and turn 45 degrees again?

[funk]

Similar experience here with rockets, perhaps because something changed with the mass of fairings. For a standard 2.5m rocket with light payload I suddenly need 1/3 more fuel and therefore a Mainsail.

[silenced]

Well, I grinded my way to the resource stuff, built a base on Minmus, now I fly everything into Minmus orbit, refuel -> go anywhere else. Takes time, yes, is unefficient, YES, is annoying, YES, but hey, it works.

The only pain left: level up the engineers! But hey, even this is working out.

I also stopped turning at all, just straight up to 70km, turn, go out a bit further, align with Minmus, suicide burn, suicide brake -> refuel.

It's like working with a sledgehammer, but it works.

[Bandock]

I thought it seemed strange that when I unleashed a rocket with just the RT-5, it was significantly weaker (or nerfed).

[RocketPilot573]

What I'm worried about is that Squad spent a long time fine tuning the values for 1.0.0, but this 1.0.1 change may have been a rushed and not very well thought out change. Why? Because my planes cant break the sound barrier anymore. I get that 800 m/s is too fast but my plane with a TwR of 3+ can suddenly only go 300.

[Godot]

So let me guess, it's most efficient to fly a rocket straight up to 10 km and turn 45 degrees again?

The big question is, if it is a good idea ...

if you fly straight up and jettison any stages during the first kms, there is a big danger that they hit the Launchpad or other nearby KSC buildings

[Guest]

Stop.

Take a deep breath.

Climb to 10.5km, build up about 275m/s.

Enter a shallow dive to gain speed. You'll want to be going about 450m/s at 8km altitude. You do this to overcome the vessel's drag and punch through the transonic barrier.

Once your RAPIERs have kicked into high gear, start climbing back.

You should be going about 1km/s at 24km. Switch modes and into space.

Congratulations.

PSA: This may not work for every craft and takes a bit of practice, but I have successfully brought a 1.0 spaceplane into space using 1.0.2.

[StevenJ]

Regex, I did exactly that, I was above 10k with a shallow aoa of about 10 with 12 rapiers TWR greater than 1.0 and it still wouldn't go faster than Mach 1. I'm pretty sure if I redesign the craft with all MKII parts it will work. I stand behind what I said, MKIII parts have way too much drag and that's the issue. I've flown SSTO planes with FAR, DRE, and 6.4 to orbit and back. I know all about proper ascent profile.

What I'm worried about is that Squad spent a long time fine tuning the values for 1.0.0, but this 1.0.1 change may have been a rushed and not very well thought out change. Why? Because my planes cant break the sound barrier anymore. I get that 800 m/s is too fast but my plane with a TwR of 3+ can suddenly only go 300.

Rocket, was your plane a MKIII fuselage system? I'm curious if you are having the same issue I am with MKIII parts and insane drag.

Edited May 1, 2015 by StevenJ

[HavinAlmassi]

The big question is, if it is a good idea ...

if you fly straight up and jettison any stages during the first kms, there is a big danger that they hit the Launchpad or other nearby KSC buildings

Do they? I thought your debris in the atmosphere despawned once it got more than 2.5 km away from the active vessel. It seems unlikely that your spent stages would hit the ground before you were that far above it.

[EladDv]

Do they? I thought your debris in the atmosphere despawned once it got more than 2.5 km away from the active vessel. It seems unlikely that your spent stages would hit the ground before you were that far above it.

this got increased to 22.5 KM and it kicks in at below 22.5 Km on atmo so yeah if you are going straight up you will never despawn stuff

[Grumman]

Do they? I thought your debris in the atmosphere despawned once it got more than 2.5 km away from the active vessel. It seems unlikely that your spent stages would hit the ground before you were that far above it.

No, 1.0 fixed it so it was possible to have your spent stages parachute back to the ground.

Then 1.01 unfixed it so that the parachutes burnt up and it smashed into the ground anyway.

[RocketPilot573]

I would greatly appreciate it if one of the devs could explain what exactly was done to the atmosphere in 1.0.1 and why....

[Guest]

Regex, I did exactly that, I was above 10k with a shallow aoa of about 10 with 12 rapiers TWR greater than 1.0 and it still wouldn't go faster than Mach 1. I'm pretty sure if I redesign the craft with all MKII parts it will work. I stand behind what I said, MKIII parts have way too much drag and that's the issue. I've flown SSTO planes with FAR, DRE, and 6.4 to orbit and back. I know all about proper ascent profile.

Your plane game is bugged:

The inboard engines are within the detection hitbox of the cargobay and need to be moved outwards.

Edited May 1, 2015 by regex

[panzer1b]

I have to say i was MUCH happier with 1.0's drag then 1.01.

Not saying its a bad update, but i feel it was exponentially more fun with 1.0 drag, as you could (even if you risked explosions) go like 700m/s at sea level, now its very very VERY hard to pull it off, unless you are ofc abusing some exploits to bypass drag (they seemed to have cut down the amount of exploits but they still exist), forget the abusrdly fun velocities rapiers could get you to!

Im gonna like with most updates, just adapt and get used to it, but it seems that every update has been reducing the fun and feasability of SSTOs. I understand they are very tough to make irl, but why should SSTOs be more or less pointless compared to rockets?

At least with the old souposphere, jets were so overpowered you could actually go orbital with em, now not only are jets nerfed (a nerf i agree with as the old ones were basically sci-fi territory), but the atmo is actually starting to return to what it was before when it comes to drag and how much dV it takes to pull anything off. I dont know how much extra dV it takes to go orbital, but im not really liking all these nerfs to aircraft (and rockets too).

[RocketPilot573]

I have to say i was MUCH happier with 1.0's drag then 1.01.

Not saying its a bad update, but i feel it was exponentially more fun with 1.0 drag, as you could (even if you risked explosions) go like 700m/s at sea level, now its very very VERY hard to pull it off, unless you are ofc abusing some exploits to bypass drag (they seemed to have cut down the amount of exploits but they still exist), forget the abusrdly fun velocities rapiers could get you to!

Im gonna like with most updates, just adapt and get used to it, but it seems that every update has been reducing the fun and feasability of SSTOs. I understand they are very tough to make irl, but why should SSTOs be more or less pointless compared to rockets?

At least with the old souposphere, jets were so overpowered you could actually go orbital with em, now not only are jets nerfed (a nerf i agree with as the old ones were basically sci-fi territory), but the atmo is actually starting to return to what it was before when it comes to drag and how much dV it takes to pull anything off. I dont know how much extra dV it takes to go orbital, but im not really liking all these nerfs to aircraft (and rockets too).

I am more worried about rockets, is a gravity turn starting at 1 km still most efficient?

[StevenJ]

Hm odd Regex i did not have that issue, I can reinstall the game that's fine. That's weird the inward engines worked fine for me on my game. I'll try and reinstall it.

[Guest]

Hm odd Regex i did not have that issue, I can reinstall the game that's fine. That's weird the inward engines worked fine for me on my game. I'll try and reinstall it.

Well, what I meant is that the game might be bugged but, yeah, if you simply overwrote your old version with the new one things~ might have happened.

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

http://kerbalx.com/Stevenj61/SP-101-Silversword

I had created this craft in 1.0, flew it to space, and survived re-entry. Now it can't even break mach one on ascent because of the 'drag fixes'. I checked the drag parameters now in the debug menu and the MK3 cockpit had something like 80 to 100 drag at just below mach 1! Really squad? Everything else in the update seemed fine but now MK3 bodies are way too hard to use for SSTO planes when it worked just fine literately yesterday. I'll even link my twitch stream where I built it live and flew it just fine in 1.0, now with 1.01 it's a brick all MKIII parts! Even after removing the MKIII cockpit with a MKII it still could just barely break mach 1! I have KER installed, TWR was well over 1, close to 1.3 to 1.5 and now nothing, can barely break mach 1 because of these 'supposed' drag fixes. Please lower the ridiculously high drag values on the MKIII parts! It's like soup o' sphere all over again for these parts! I even added an extra pair of rapiers to the craft totally 12! Still couldn't go faster than mach 1 with TWR greater than one above 10k!

Stop ranting and present your issues in a helpfull way.

[Guest]

Stop ranting and present your issues in a helpfull way.

How about reading the OP/thread before crapping on it?

[mythbusters844]

I don't know how helpful this is, but here's the old physics.cfg from 1.0:

dragMultiplier = 6.0
dragCubeMultiplier = 0.06
angularDragMultiplier = 2
liftMultiplier = 0.038
liftDragMultiplier = 0.03
bodyLiftMultiplier = 8
aeroFXStartThermalFX = 2
aeroFXFullThermalFX = 3.5
aeroFXExponent = 3
thermalMaxIntegrationWarp = 100
spaceTemperature = 4
solarLuminosityAtHome = 1360
solarInsolationAtHome = 0.15
convectionDensityExponent = 1
convectionVelocityExponent = 3
fullConvectionAreaMin = 0.2
fullToCrossSectionLerpStart = 0.8
fullToCrossSectionLerpEnd = 1.5
machConvectionStart = 2
machConvectionEnd = 3.5
partEmissivityExponent = 4
radiationFactor = 1
convectionFactor = 40
newtonianConvectionFactorBase = 1
newtonianConvectionFactorTotal = 1
conductionFactor = 10
internalHeatProductionFactor = 0.03
aerodynamicHeatProductionFactor = 1
standardSpecificHeatCapacity = 800
DRAG_TIP
{
	key = 0 1 0 0
	key = 25 1 0 0
}
DRAG_SURFACE
{
	key = 0 0.02 0 0
	key = 0.85 0.02 0 0
	key = 0.9 0.0152439 -0.07942077 -0.07942077
	key = 1.1 0.0025 -0.005279571 -0.001936768
	key = 2 0.002083333 -2.314833E-05 -2.314833E-05
	key = 5 0.003333333 -0.000180556 -0.000180556
	key = 25 0.001428571 -7.14286E-05 0
}
DRAG_TAIL
{
	key = 0 1 0 0
	key = 0.85 1 0 0
	key = 1.1 0.25 -0.02215106 -0.02487721
	key = 1.4 0.2287166 -0.01326022 -0.001389867
	key = 2 0.275 0.03981932 0.03981932
	key = 5 0.3333333 -0.003474526 -0.02333333
	key = 25 0.1428571 -0.004285714 0
}
DRAG_MULTIPLIER
{
	key = 0 0.5 0 0
	key = 0.85 0.5 0 0
	key = 1.1 2 0 -0.6
	key = 2 1.2 -0.5444444 -0.5444444
	key = 5 0.6 0 0
	key = 10 0.8 0.06700063 0.06700063
	key = 14 0.93 0.006815632 0.006815632
	key = 25 1 0 0
}
LIFTING_SURFACE_CURVES
{
	LIFTING_SURFACE
	{
		name = Default
		lift
		{
			key = 0 0 0 1.965926
			key = 0.258819 0.5114774 1.990092 1.905806
			key = 0.5 0.9026583 0.7074468 -0.7074468
			key = 0.7071068 0.5926583 -2.087948 -1.990095
			key = 1 0 -2.014386 -2.014386
		}
		liftMach
		{
			key = 0 1 0 0
			key = 0.3 0.5 -1.671345 -0.8273422
			key = 1 0.125 -0.0005291355 -0.02625772
			key = 5 0.0625 0 0
			key = 25 0.05 0 0
		}
		drag
		{
			key = 0 0.01 0 0
			key = 0.3420201 0.1 0.1750731 0.1750731
			key = 0.5 0.4 4.557837 4.557837
			key = 0.7071068 2.828427 4 4
			key = 1 4 4 0
		}
		dragMach
		{
			key = 0 0.25 0 -0.8463008
			key = 0.15 0.125 0 0
			key = 0.9 0.375 0.7227947 0.7227947
			key = 1.1 1 0 0
			key = 1.4 0.65 -1.29191 -1.29191
			key = 1.6 0.5 -0.4376471 -0.4376471
			key = 2 0.42 -0.1475873 -0.1475873
			key = 5 0.275 0 0
			key = 25 0.4 0.0006807274 0
		}
	}
	LIFTING_SURFACE
	{
		name = BodyLift
		lift
		{
			key = 0 0 0 1.975376
			key = 0.309017 0.5877852 1.565065 1.565065
			key = 0.5877852 0.9510565 0.735902 0.735902
			key = 0.7071068 1 0 0
			key = 0.8910065 0.809017 -2.70827 -2.70827
			key = 1 0 -11.06124 0
		}
		liftMach
		{
			key = 0.3 0.167 0 0
			key = 0.8 0.167 0 -0.3904104
			key = 1 0.125 -0.0005291355 -0.02625772
			key = 5 0.0625 0 0
			key = 25 0.05 0 0
		}
		drag
		{
			key = 0 0 0 0
		}
		dragMach
		{
			key = 0 0 0 0
		}
	}
	LIFTING_SURFACE
	{
		name = SpeedBrake
		lift
		{
			key = 0 0 0 0
		}
		liftMach
		{
			key = 0 0 0 0
		}
		drag
		{
			key = 0 0.01 0 0
			key = 0.3420201 0.1 0.1750731 0.1750731
			key = 0.5 0.4 4.557837 4.557837
			key = 0.7071068 2.828427 4 4
			key = 1 4 4 0
		}
		dragMach
		{
			key = 0 0.25 0 -0.8463008
			key = 0.15 0.125 0 0
			key = 0.9 0.375 0.7227947 0.7227947
			key = 1.1 1 0 0
			key = 1.4 0.65 -1.29191 -1.29191
			key = 1.6 0.5 -0.4376471 -0.4376471
			key = 2 0.42 -0.1475873 -0.1475873
			key = 5 0.275 0 0
			key = 25 0.4 0.0006807274 0
		}
	}
}

I don't know if the new changes were hard-coded in the game or just a change to this config, but if they are, you should be able to revert by copying the old Physics.cfg somewhere safe in case you want to revert back to 1.0.2's config, selecting the code above, copying it, pasting it in notepad, and saving it as "Physics.cfg" in your KSP_win directory. Of course, be careful as I haven't tried this yet, and remember to keep your old physics.cfg in case something goes wrong.

[NathanKell]

Physics is not hardcoded, so that's fine. Note, however, that you will end up playing with way-less-draggy-than-real aero if you do.

[Jovus]

So what seems to be the problem? Is drag increased across the board? Is drag significantly increased trans- and super-sonic, but not before, as an attempt to model 'real' Mach effects? Are jets (and possibly other engines) merely following a different power curve that has people up in arms?

Methinks some testing is definitely in order.

[RocketPilot573]

This is odd, in 1.0.0 I flew my rocket with a flight profile so that it was horizontal by 30 km. Now when I do that all vertical velocity bleeds off and the rocket falls back into the atmosphere (this is using the same exact rocket). Even at 2300 m/s drag in increased significantly.