Why was adding aerodynamic stability removed?

[Roflcopterkklol]

Personally, The only reason i fire KSP up is for the space plane hanger so i can build, fly and have fun with planes, be it planes in the atmosphere or planes in space i just love planes in general...

but squad does not seem to share this love, jet engines have been rendered useless for navigating around kerbin due to how much fuel they suck, the atmosphere will no longer allow hypersonic flight even with rocket assistance and now SSTO's are completely useless as they need to be so large they cause unplayable lag and game crashes.

Here is a picture of my 1.0 SSTO at a 78km orbit, notice how much delta V was required to get there

here is my 1.0.2 version of the same SSTO design at the same altitude, notice the extra 1000 Oxidizer and 500 liquid fuel that has had to be squeezed into the craft just to be barely capable of an 80km orbit.

If i loaded this craft into 0.90 i could make it a single stage to duna and return vehicle...

Meaning we are left building things like my "new pride and joy"

Where is the fun in building something like this? it took me less time to build than it did to fly to orbit, anyone can replicate the design just by staring at the picture for 20 seconds and the skill cap is so low, there is not much better that can be done.

Maybe i just do not like change but i actually miss the souposphere....

never thought i would say that.... but at least it was fun.

I miss my white lightning mk5 which was a single stage to Mun and return craft.

I miss my hypersonic planes.

heck i miss my jet ATV, it flies in these new "realistic"aerodynamics so i cant use it anymore.

OMG SO REALISTIC! (same craft flies in the realistic aero... such a joke...)

So what is this hatred of the space plane hanger?

Or is it just a disregard for its existence?

Edit:

omg so realistic guys, look at my new 1.0.2 pod racer!

Edited May 3, 2015 by Roflcopterkklol

[Aanker]

I agree. Notice how before you could build a nice aerodynamic shell around your plane? Not anymore - drag severely limits how you can craft wings and place fuselage parts. 1.0 was managable after introducing wing austerity, 1.0.2 just outright killed my spaceplanes.

[Old Foxboy]

What do you expect? There's no jet that can leave the atmosphere in real life. The maximum you'll get is a Mach 3+ speed boost to pull up for a parabolic flight profile and go suborbital at best. To get into orbit, you'll always need rockets. However, i'd like to see an addition of experimental hypersonic flight engines that allow greater heights and speeds to achieve a near orbital flight profile.

[BagelRabbit]

So what is this hatred of the space plane hanger?

Or is it just a disregard for its existence?

As much as I loved the old aerodynamics, this sort of argument just doesn't make sense.

Your basic statement is "Making very unrealistic planes was fun! Now, I can't do it anymore. Therefore, SQUAD hates the spaceplane hangar and planes in general."

The reason you can't make hypersonic planes and SSTOs anymore is because they are all-but-impossible to make in real life. SQUAD wants to add more realism to the game, so it's trying to make planes and the like behave realistically. Apparently, you don't like this extra realism. Which is fine: I really miss some of my old, crazy designs too. But it doesn't mean that SQUAD hates the aerodynamics system. Why should it?

If you don't like realism, you can go back to an older version. But please don't claim that SQUAD hates aircraft because it's trying to make aircraft simulation better.

-Upsilon

[Vaporo]

I agree. Notice how before you could build a nice aerodynamic shell around your plane? Not anymore - drag severely limits how you can craft wings and place fuselage parts. 1.0 was managable after introducing wing austerity, 1.0.2 just outright killed my spaceplanes.

What are you talking about? You can still go insanely fast in 1.0.2.

In this case, the plane was still accelerating at quite a clip (look at the gee meter) when it exploded from overheating. And if you could do this even more easily in 1.0, then I call this an improvement.

Of course, I've been playing FAR for quite a while, so I'm probably used to more realistic aerodynamics.

I'll try to build an SSTO later.

[Robotengineer]

Just get used to the new aero.

[Dodgey]

Yes, why does Squad hate the area of the game that has received some of the most attention and expansions in the latest updates.

[MiltiTrace]

i agree with Roflcopterkklol, hangar to store alredy builded planes is must-be-building in ksp, and integrated building time to)

[Roflcopterkklol]

As much as I loved the old aerodynamics, this sort of argument just doesn't make sense.

Your basic statement is "Making very unrealistic planes was fun! Now, I can't do it anymore. Therefore, SQUAD hates the spaceplane hangar and planes in general."

The reason you can't make hypersonic planes and SSTOs anymore is because they are all-but-impossible to make in real life. SQUAD wants to add more realism to the game, so it's trying to make planes and the like behave realistically. Apparently, you don't like this extra realism. Which is fine: I really miss some of my old, crazy designs too. But it doesn't mean that SQUAD hates the aerodynamics system. Why should it?

If you don't like realism, you can go back to an older version. But please don't claim that SQUAD hates aircraft because it's trying to make aircraft simulation better.

-Upsilon

realistic, yeah is that why my Jet ATV which in .90 was sucked to the ground by downforce flies in these new aerodynamics?

They are broken, the only thing more realistic about the new aero is the fact that there is a heating effect and you can do over 200m/s at sea level.

[adinfinitum]

I agree. Notice how before you could build a nice aerodynamic shell around your plane? Not anymore - drag severely limits how you can craft wings and place fuselage parts. 1.0 was managable after introducing wing austerity, 1.0.2 just outright killed my spaceplanes.

This is definitely a legitimate concern, but the problem isn't so much the drag, it's that wings now function much better as wings, so if you use them for aesthetics it's gonna mess up the plane. It really doesn't take much wing area to get liftoff now, so any wings past that are just adding drag. A better option than changing the drag would be to add in more structural parts, that way you can make something that isn't just a fuselage with wings sticking out horizontally, and not have it screw with your drag and lift.

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

Honestly? I just wish SQUAD pay more attention the space exploration side of the game... you know... the reason the word "space" is in the game tittle.

No offense intended, I have nothing against people like you that enjoy building planes, but this is a space game, reading all this complains about the aerodynamics is starting to get old. Forget about planes I say, git me my /*@! space to explore with my rockets already.

[Vaporo]

realistic, yeah is that why my Jet ATV which in .90 was sucked to the ground by downforce flies in these new aerodynamics?

They are broken, the only thing more realistic about the new aero is the fact that there is a heating effect and you can do over 200m/s at sea level.

Of course it's not perfect. It will never be perfect (thought that is a pretty big flaw that you've found there). Even Ferram Aerospace allows for some pretty crazy things:

Just out of curiosity, though, I may try to rebuild your Jet ATV and tweak it to fly it in FAR. Who knows. It may work perfectly.

[Tiberion]

Don't spam wingparts (or other parts)

I know it looks cool and it was awesome to build a shoebox and fly it into space like a jetplane, but don't do that, it doesn't work anymore. Even that jet in your 1st picture is overbuild

You can also change the settings, use the debug menu or edit the physics file and make it super easy again if all you want to do is build the Empire State Building and then launch it to Jool. Nothing stopping you.

However when it comes down to either having a proper simulation or allowing you to build a flyable Star Destroyer, the simulation should win.

[Hodo]

Personally it is the only reason i fire KSP up, so i can build, fly and have fun with planes, be it planes in the atmosphere or planes in space i just love planes in general...

but squad does not seem to share this love, jet engines have been rendered useless for navigating around kerbin due to how much fuel they suck, the atmosphere will no longer allow hypersonic flight even with rocket assistance and now SSTO's are completely useless as they need to be so large they cause unplayable lag and game crashes.

Here is a picture of my 0.90 SSTMun just for reference, this is the craft both of the craft below are supposed to be "upgraded" versions of, this craft flew to orbit, then to the mun and then back to kerbin with a part count of 240, a very satisfying and complicated craft to build.

The problem is you were used to a couple of things that SQUAD fixed.

1st was the craptastic souposphere that you could get craft to fly to space without engines at all using the "krakken drive" bug.

2nd, Jets were EXTREMELY overpowered in the previous versions of KSP, this was fixed.

3rd, Intake spam/Airhog in the previous version and fly a 10 ton jet to Eeloo in a single stage. Now that isn't really possible thanks to the intake and jet engine nerfs.

Lastly if you were a serious airplane person you would have FAR or NEAR and know how to design a working aircraft so this wouldn't be a shock to you. I know it took me 15min to build a SSTO spaceplane when 1.0 came out, without any mods. It took me longer to get used to the new parts then to figure out how to fly it.

Just saying that SQUAD didnt do anything to hate on SPH part of KSP. Just everyone has to learn how to do things differently than the exploit, bug ridden previous versions.

Welcome to 1.0!

[Aanker]

I'll post this image here too

This is definitely a legitimate concern, but the problem isn't so much the drag, it's that wings now function much better as wings, so if you use them for aesthetics it's gonna mess up the plane. It really doesn't take much wing area to get liftoff now, so any wings past that are just adding drag. A better option than changing the drag would be to add in more structural parts, that way you can make something that isn't just a fuselage with wings sticking out horizontally, and not have it screw with your drag and lift.

Yeah I could agree with that. The problem is however still that if you want to build larger wings, it's either lego many wings together (which adds drag) or use the insane new wing parts which aren't really compatible with anything else.

Don't spam wingparts (or other parts)

I know it looks cool and it was awesome to build a shoebox and fly it into space like a jetplane, but don't do that, it doesn't work anymore. Even that jet in your 1st picture is overbuild

It also happens to look much more realistic than the currently most efficient designs.

[Roflcopterkklol]

The problem is you were used to a couple of things that SQUAD fixed.

1st was the craptastic souposphere that you could get craft to fly to space without engines at all using the "krakken drive" bug.

2nd, Jets were EXTREMELY overpowered in the previous versions of KSP, this was fixed.

3rd, Intake spam/Airhog in the previous version and fly a 10 ton jet to Eeloo in a single stage. Now that isn't really possible thanks to the intake and jet engine nerfs.

Lastly if you were a serious airplane person you would have FAR or NEAR and know how to design a working aircraft so this wouldn't be a shock to you. I know it took me 15min to build a SSTO spaceplane when 1.0 came out, without any mods. It took me longer to get used to the new parts then to figure out how to fly it.

Just saying that SQUAD didnt do anything to hate on SPH part of KSP. Just everyone has to learn how to do things differently than the exploit, bug ridden previous versions.

Welcome to 1.0!

Hodo all my craft work in the old sock aero, NEAR and FAR....

The only one which does not is my B-2 spirit bomber because it was built to pitch up at 5 degree in the souposphere... i build craft correctly, do not accuse me otherwise unless you have actually flown something i build.

here is one of my "1.0" designs, literally a refit of one of my 0.90 planes.

but then again maybe i got all that rep for sucking at the game?

1.0 version in stock aero

0.90 version in stock aero

And yes i did like abusing the aero to build crap like this but im not going to complain about it being harder to do now, you can still do it though.

heck im going to re build this thing now to prove the aero is just as broken as before.

[WOODY01]

I do think they should add future tech engines, maybe ones with poorer performance at lower altitudes so there is a trade off the player has to consider. Maybe not realistic but I do know engines can be tuned to run better at certain temps and atmospheric pressures. I am seeing videos post 1.0 release where people are successfully using SSTO planes, so not sure why besides designs that worked well before do not or unable to carry the same payloads as before.

As for playing this game as a plane simulation it would be nice if squad could find a balance between focusing on rockets and planes. I purchased this game pre .90 release and I suspect their original concept was focused on rockets and they did not expect the popularity planes would have. I could be wrong and they intended to focus on planes and rockets equally and jueeded st started with rockets.

What I have seen from older videos is they did switch to focusing on plane parts a lot more when they saw the players' demand for it. Adding new plane parts, how jet engines perform more realistically losing thrust as the plane gains altitude and air hogging does not work any more. All of which can make some designs pre 1.0 obsolete or in need of some tweaking.

I have some rocket designs that needed to be adjusted after 1.0 simply because of the new aero. I will admit for rockets it is a little easier since a lot of the rockets just required adjusting the TWR or simply adjusting the launch profile. I have a SSTO plane design that I just abandoned since the new aero was intoduced and started a new design which I am still working on, not sure on the weight of the payload I can get to LKO yet, but it performs ok at the moment. Once I get that design working effiently and able to get a small satelite into LKO, I'll move to a larger design when I get the tech for better intakes and engines.

[Dodgey]

Normally I wouldn't agree with the "if you were serious than you would have done this" thought line but in this circumstance it is applicable. To say that the new aerodynamics are not as accurate as the old one is just factually wrong, FAR is most likely still more accurate but that's the point.

To compare it to War Thunder the old aerodynamics is arcade, the current is realistic and FAR is simulation. All that Squad did is make it more realistic which in turn ruined a lot of designs that wouldn't work (mostly) in real life. It's not going to change back to how it was so you can either get used to it, downgrade to 0.90 or install a mod to make it how you like it. I'm sorry but those are your only three options (you can always just keep complaining but what that accomplishes is debatable).

[Aanker]

All that Squad did is make it more realistic which in turn ruined a lot of designs that wouldn't work (mostly) in real life.

Again, plain wrong, most of my old designs look more realistic and aerodynamic than what I have to build now.

[Red Iron Crown]

Jet are fixed, not broken. They no longer consume 1/15th of what the fuel should and their thrust and Isp curves have received some much needed attention. The last three updates have been largely plane-focused parts-wise, with the new Mk2 parts in 0.25, the new Mk3 parts in 0.90, and a bunch of new wing parts in 1.0 as well as a better aero model. Have things gotten more challenging? Yes, not everything flies well anymore and airhogged turbojets aren't nearly-fuelless orbit achievers anymore, but these are good changes for anyone who cares about the fidelity of the simulation part of the game.

Certainly, there will be an adjustment period while players learn to work within the new systems, but it is completely unfair to say that Squad hates planes or the hangar. Clearly they think planes are important, so important that they fixed their broken physics and really fleshed out the plane part lineup.

[Roflcopterkklol]

Jet are fixed, not broken. They no longer consume 1/15th of what the fuel should and their thrust and Isp curves have received some much needed attention. The last three updates have been largely plane-focused parts-wise, with the new Mk2 parts in 0.25, the new Mk3 parts in 0.90, and a bunch of new wing parts in 1.0 as well as a better aero model. Have things gotten more challenging? Yes, not everything flies well anymore and airhogged turbojets aren't nearly-fuelless orbit achievers anymore, but these are good changes for anyone who cares about the fidelity of the simulation part of the game.

Certainly, there will be an adjustment period while players learn to work within the new systems, but it is completely unfair to say that Squad hates planes or the hangar. Clearly they think planes are important, so important that they fixed their broken physics and really fleshed out the plane part lineup.

Im getting to pointing out that the certainly did not fix the flight physics im about to abuse the heck out of the game and build things that should not fly but will.

the jet ATV is a great example, i never intended for that to ever fly so imagine what i can do in this aero when i put my mind to it.

They have made it so the spaceplane hanger is good for building low altitude planes, nothing else, SSTO's are no longer viable as i explained in the OP.

[Tiberion]

Im getting to pointing out that the certainly did not fix the flight physics im about to abuse the heck out of the game and build things that should not fly but will.

the jet ATV is a great example, i never intended for that to ever fly so imagine what i can do in this aero when i put my mind to it.

They have made it so the spaceplane hanger is good for building low altitude planes, nothing else, SSTO's are no longer viable as i explained in the OP.

Boy thats weird, those people in the thread showing off all their SSTO planes must be wrong then. You should go over and let them know to stop flying them.

[Roflcopterkklol]

Boy thats weird, those people in the thread showing off all their SSTO planes must be wrong then. You should go over and let them know to stop flying them.

I have seen them, heck i posted my own?

I stated what is wrong with them also.

[Vaporo]

heck im going to re build this thing now to prove the aero is just as broken as before.

Im getting to pointing out that the certainly did not fix the flight physics im about to abuse the heck out of the game and build things that should not fly but will.

the jet ATV is a great example, i never intended for that to ever fly so imagine what i can do in this aero when i put my mind to it.

*Points to previous post*

Even FAR allows for ridiculous broken things if you work at it, and FAR is pretty well-made. And Squad outright stated that they weren't going for the level of realism of FAR, so of course you are going to be able to break aerodynamics if you are actively trying to do so. You can break pretty much any physics simulation if you want to.

[Aanker]

*Points to previous post*

Even FAR allows for ridiculous broken things if you work at it, and FAR is pretty well-made. And Squad outright stated that they weren't going for the level of realism of FAR, so of course you are going to be able to break aerodynamics if you are actively trying to do so. You can break pretty much any physics simulation if you want to.

So why can't we creatively build realistic looking planes, but it's fine that it's possible to build riddiculously broken stuff?