Phasing out PNGs and TGAs from mods?

[almagnus1]

So, should KSP eventually phase out support for PNGs and TGAs textures, only leaving support for DDS's?

[adinfinitum]

Any particular reason? I don't really know the pros/cons of .dds vs .png, so I'm just curious.

[Commander Zoom]

Creating and editing .dds tends to require more specialized tools/plugins to than .png, which many graphics programs these days handle out-of-the-box.

[Alshain]

Any particular reason? I don't really know the pros/cons of .dds vs .png, so I'm just curious.

1.0 converted the stock textures to DDS and that resulted in the new faster load times you may have noticed. However, I think it is the responsibility of the modder to update, not the responsibility of Squad to force them to. Ideally if possible all modders would convert their parts as we have seen what a great improvement it offers, but some modders aren't around but their part-only mods still work. I don't want to see those mods stop working.

[nightingale]

1.0 converted the stock textures to DDS and that resulted in the new faster load times you may have noticed. However, I think it is the responsibility of the modder to update, not the responsibility of Squad to force them to. Ideally if possible all modders would convert their parts as we have seen what a great improvement it offers, but some modders aren't around but their part-only mods still work. I don't want to see those mods stop working.

Yup, this. One day I'll get around to converting stuff in my mods to .dds, but it's just not a priority, and there's no reason it should be forced. Contract Configurator, for example, has exactly three 16x16 PNGs... I doubt it will have a noticeable impact on anyone's load time if I never get around to DDSing those.

[Hobbes Novakoff]

Really, there isn't any point in blocking off modders from doing something. Frankly, the instant you plonk something into GameData besides the Squad folder, any guarantees Squad has made on how the game will work (including faster load time etc.) are invalid. Squad has no obligation to make the game work as advertised-or even work at all-when mods are installed.

[soulsource]

Although converting to dds is meanwhile as simple as running `convert inputfile.something -flip outputfile.dds` on the command line (given that imagemagick is installed, which is a part of most Linux default installations), I wouldn't drop support for png and tga. If I'm not mistaken, S3TC is lossy, so directly editing the .dds files is a bad idea. For modders, and also users who want to mess with textures it's therefore much more convenient to have the option to directly load lossless textures into the game, even if they are only used for testing before converting them to dds in the end.

[Sky_walker]

IMHO: Using DDS textures should be very strongly encouraged, however it shouldn't be enforced as it creates additional obstacle for newcomers into modding.

[KerbMav]

IMHO: Using DDS textures should be very strongly encouraged, however it shouldn't be enforced as it creates additional obstacle for newcomers into modding.

Is it possible that some mods need png jpg ... files to work?

Or could I just go ahead and convert my installed mods myself? (Looks at TextureReplacer folder ...)

Which program should I use?

[soulsource]

Is it possible that some mods need png jpg ... files to work?

Although I don't really know why, yes it happened to me once that a mod doesn't work correctly after simply converting the textures to DDS format. This nevertheless happened only in one case, the other mods were working fine even after simply converting their texture files. I'd say, just try converting and if something breaks, reinstall the mod.

Or could I just go ahead and convert my installed mods myself? (Looks at TextureReplacer folder ...)

As implied above, yes you can do this for almost all mods. I personally can confirm that TextureReplacer is working fine using .dds textures in 1.0.2. Nevertheless there is one thing you need to keep in mind: The color channels for normal maps are different for DDS normal maps. PNG normal maps are (afair) in RGBA format, while for .dds normal maps you'll need to convert them to GGGR before converting them to DDS.

Which program should I use?

I'm a friend of simple tools, so I'd recommend to use ImageMagick. If you're using Linux, chances are extremely high that it is already installed, and all you need to do would be to run

convert INPUTFILE.WHATEVER -define OPTIONS -flip OUTPUTFILE.dds

The options you can use are:

• dds:cluster-fit=true|false Enables the dds cluster-fit.
  
• dds:compression=dxt1|dxt5|none Sets the dds compression.
  
• dds:mipmaps=value Sets the dds number of mipmaps.
  
• dds:weight-by-alpha=true|false Enables the dds alpha weighting.
  

There are of course other tools available, for more details see the DDSLoader thread.

Anyhow, I personally got bored with converting textures manually, and simply installed ActiveTextureManagement, which will convert all textures to .dds automatically the first time KSP is being run after installing ATM.

[fairytalefox]

One day I'll get around to converting stuff in my mods to .dds, but it's just not a priority, and there's no reason it should be forced.

It's exactly why dds should be forced: to make the transition your top priority. Without being enforced to do things properly, people tend to just fool around and make up random excuses. This mod kinda works, that mod kinda works, they don't work together, nobody of those who cares can fix the situation, nobody of those who can fix the situation cares, the modders are the master race, the users should shut up and eat what they've got because beggars can't choose. If it is not racism, I don't know what is.

[Sky_walker]

Nvidia made texture tools that allow you to export files in DDS format.

[sarbian]

It's exactly why dds should be forced: to make the transition your top priority. Without being enforced to do things properly, people tend to just fool around and make up random excuses. This mod kinda works, that mod kinda works, they don't work together, nobody of those who cares can fix the situation, nobody of those who can fix the situation cares, the modders are the master race, the users should shut up and eat what they've got because beggars can't choose. If it is not racism, I don't know what is.

I think you should take a chill pill and look up the definition of racism. If you want to call it something call it discrimination but that would still be ridiculous since it does not stop you from using the mod.

Modders have no obligation whatsoever to do anything and nothing stops you from converting the texture if it is such a priority.

[KerbMav]

because beggars can't choose.

Make an offer, pay for their work, make modding just for you worthwhile for them ... ?

[regex]

If it is not racism, I don't know what is.

Clearly you have no idea what racism actually is.

OP, forcing the issue never makes anyone happy. Instead you'd get someone making a mod that allows loading of pngs and tgas. A better idea would be to politely ask individual mod authors to move their work over and respect their wishes if they don't.

[Hobbes Novakoff]

Clearly you have no idea what racism actually is.

OP, forcing the issue never makes anyone happy. Instead you'd get someone making a mod that allows loading of pngs and tgas. A better idea would be to politely ask individual mod authors to move their work over and respect their wishes if they don't.

Indeed. It's not like adding red tape accomplishes anything here. If you don't want PNGs, you can convert the texture yourself. One of the things that makes KSP great is its free and open modding community, and I don't think that should be needlessly changed.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Hobbes Novakoff
Grammars

[almagnus1]

OP, forcing the issue never makes anyone happy. Instead you'd get someone making a mod that allows loading of pngs and tgas. A better idea would be to politely ask individual mod authors to move their work over and respect their wishes if they don't.

I understand that point, but at the same time, one of the problems we've had historically with KSP has been really bad memory management, of which the PNGs and TGAs have been the root cause. That's why Active Texture Management is a "must have" mod, because it helps users cope with memory management issues that, IMO, they shouldn't have to in the first place.

But at the same time, but Squad setting the bar of "your mod must have DDS", while it pushes the work of ATM off on the modders, also creates a better user experience, and helps KSP look a bit more polished as it helps hide the x86 memory limit curse that we've been dealing with for a long time now.

To make something perfectly clear: The entire point of this thread (and poll) was to poll the modders and community and see what they think.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Edited May 13, 2015 by almagnus1

[Mecripp]

I stop using ATM around .25 and don't have a problem and IMO this whole thread is a joke and the poll speaks for it self no one should be forced to display there art in one format and not texture look good in DDS format from what, I have seen.

EDIT- If someone really wants DDS format they can convert them there self and if a mod there using aren't DDS they can send the modder a PM link to the DDS textures they converted and say if you want to use them fine and if not fine really what is the problem or you just don't want to spend your time doing it ?

Edited May 13, 2015 by Mecripp2

[Alshain]

I understand that point, but at the same time, one of the problems we've had historically with KSP has been really bad memory management, of which the PNGs and TGAs have been the root cause. That's why Active Texture Management is a "must have" mod, because it helps users cope with memory management issues that, IMO, they shouldn't have to in the first place.

But at the same time, but Squad setting the bar of "your mod must have DDS", while it pushes the work of ATM off on the modders, also creates a better user experience, and helps KSP look a bit more polished as it helps hide the x86 memory limit curse that we've been dealing with for a long time now.

To make something perfectly clear: The entire point of this thread (and poll) was to poll the modders and community and see what they think.

Nothing more, nothing less.

There are other ways than forcing a modder to do something they don't want to. For example, you could not use that mod. These guys spend hundreds to thousands of hours making something for you and don't get paid to do it, and don't think the donation buttons get any activity because they don't. If you don't like the mod the way it is you can ask them politely to change it or not use it. (I'm not saying that to be rude, it sounds that way in text but I'm just pointing out the options and couldn't figure out a better way to phrase it).

You aren't fully taking into account the possibilities of such a change. If Squad were to force modders to do a lot of work they felt wasn't necessary, they could just decide they don't want to do it anymore, then we are all screwed. I think I said this already but several fully functional part mods were made well and haven't been updated in a very long time, but still work. Some of them are so small their file type isn't going to make a big difference. Since the modder is gone from the community, that mod automatically dies if such a change is made. (We already had such a disaster when Spaceport died, we lost a lot of good mods that we still haven't gotten back!)

You have blinders on, you're only seeing the one scenario directly in front of you. It's hard to take in the big picture of what could go wrong if you suddenly decide to needlessly force people's hand.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Alshain

[regex]

I understand that point, but at the same time, one of the problems we've had historically with KSP has been really bad memory management, of which the PNGs and TGAs have been the root cause. That's why Active Texture Management is a "must have" mod, because it helps users cope with memory management issues that, IMO, they shouldn't have to in the first place.

Why would you want to push the burden of memory management onto the modders themselves instead of asking Squad to fix their issue? For instance, Squad could have written an ATM-alike and kept a texture cache to load DDS files from instead of scraping from the entire GameData directory every time. Alternatively, Squad could fix the memory management problem they have. Instead, you're talking about forcing modders to make up for Squad's deficiency.

[smjjames]

Well, while I support changing the textures to DDS, there are parts of some mods (icons mostly) which won't work if they are DDSified. However, those wouldn't be the main graphical load, the parts would be.

[TheMoonRover]

Gar, I accidentally voted yes. I meant no. I have three points to make:

1) Obviously the PNGs and TGAs take longer to load over DDSs, so I think modders should be encouraged to convert textures to the new DDS format.

2) Aren't the stock flags PNGs?

3) I personally updated the textures for KHI (see signature) using a converter I found somewhere on the forums. It took less than five minutes, but one part texture failed to convert. Also, any icons would probably actually be more trouble to convert than they're worth, so I think support should be left open.

Edited May 13, 2015 by TheMoonRover

[sumghai]

While I personally am taking advantage of all that the new DDS texture format support offers, I strongly disagree with "forcing" add-on authors to phase on PNGs/TGAs.

My main reasoning is that PNGs are actually still used for toolbar icons and UI elements, where conversion to DDS in those specific cases actually leads to image quality degradation.