Career Mode, Planes Only

[Old_Gaming_Geezer]

Hi all,

I guess this is more of a request for discussion, but I'm also looking for advice. I am currently attempting to do a career mode using the SPH and the Runway only, to build and launch. I'm using normal difficulty level and I'm having some problems. I have sort of hit a wall and I am unsure how to proceed. I have only unlocked the basic jet engines and I am currently trying to get science from around Kerbin, materials, goo, EVA and crew reports. The basic jet engines are not really good enough to power a space plane to a high enough speed/altitude to get a space plane into orbit so I'm not able to get orbit science nor complete the Get Vehicle into Space contract.

What I really want to know is, am I wasting my tiime? is there enough science on Kerbin to unlock the tech I need to launch space planes? Can anybody give me any advice with this? What are your thoughts?

I am not trying to plug my youtube channel here, but below is a video I made last week of the beginning of my attempt. I have not proceeded much further than this, only flew a couple of science gathering plane missions since this was made.

https://youtu.be/QuYNibJ0O3g

Edited May 21, 2015 by Old_Gaming_Geezer

[Janos1986]

There's not enough science on Kerbin to do that, Ramjets are way up in the tech tree and I think they're nerfed now with the new atmo (just speculation, I haven't unlocket them yet).

And forget the RAPIERs.

[ratchet freak]

There's not enough science on Kerbin to do that, Ramjets are way up in the tech tree and I think they're nerfed now with the new atmo (just speculation, I haven't unlocket them yet).

And forget the RAPIERs.

There is no reason to not use rockets for a boost to outside the atmosphere after pitching up ditching your wings and jets, it's just a bit of a hassle

[KSK]

I think it's going to be extremely challenging but I don't think you're wasting your time. I've built a rocket plane to do some of the Kerbin survey missions (since I couldn't get up to 18,000m with the basic jet engine), which was capable of getting out of the atmosphere. Getting to orbit would be a whole different thing though.

[Janos1986]

There is no reason to not use rockets for a boost to outside the atmosphere after pitching up ditching your wings and jets, it's just a bit of a hassle

Yeah but you'll need a ton of fuel to get in orbit and do other stuff. At some point you'l just get a horizontal rocket and I'm missing the point of doing that instead of just building a rocket or a shuttle.

[n0xiety]

There is enough science to do that actually... If you have all the science equipment just crate an easy vtol and start collecting data from the KSC. You might not know this but KSC has more than 30 biomes of its own each with atleast 75 science when everything is done. Every rooftop, every sideroad, on top of those radar dishes(each of them) every one of those water towers, even the frikin flag pole has a biome of its own. Add that to the land biomes and you will have more than 3000 science. Or you could collect all these reports and send them to orbit with a lab to get 15000 science out of them. Use this: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/119562-1-0-2-x-Science!-KSP-Science-report-and-checklist?p=1907551#post1907551 . It will help you keep track of your science. If you ask me this should be a stock feature.

Edited May 19, 2015 by n0xiety

[heng]

What about strategies?

You can easily cash in a lot(*) of science by converting funds from survey contracts.

As for the "horizontal rocket" argument:

So what? Launch a plane (think 'Sänger') as a first stage. Granted, juggling the two vessels after separation will be tricky, but hey, that's what you asked for.

--

(*) granted, you would have to do a lot of contracts, but hey, you will be doing these anyways, right?

Edited May 19, 2015 by heng

[UnusualAttitude]

Hi,

A plane-only career is a cool challenge! I've been experimenting with basic jet spaceplanes recently, like this one...

I use FAR, so I don't really know if this would work or not in stock. Probably, if you manage to find the right combination of jet power, rockets and fuel.

It weighs 36 tonnes fueled (two jets, two Thuds and an LV909) and it barely gets a 1.2 tonne payload to low orbit, but it's quite possible to build small probes to send back science from Mun and Minmus within this limit. A couple of science experiments onboard, then go biome-hopping for Science!

UA

[Wanderfound]

In FAR or stock, a plane-only career is very doable. Basic jet spaceplanes are possible (but not hugely useful), and low-tech suborbital hoppers are very simple to build.

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[Hyomoto]

I know this was already said but the biggest problem is the tech tree. The game is heavily weighted towards space, despite the abundance of science experiments and biomes on Kerbin, and you basically have to supplement your science by doing missions outside the Kerbin SOI, which is problematic because you then need to spend science on rockets to perform more missions for more science. That's not to say it's impossible, I believe there is around 500 science on Kerbin itself, but it's a particularly strict path. However, like any challenge, in the case of a stock career you'll have to upgrade your SPH and runway to at least open up the freedom to pursue less orthodox methods.

[Geschosskopf]

Here's a link to how Katateochi did a planes-only career back before 1.x. While of course things are different now, the general idea behind this stuff is still the same.

On the biomes of KSC, you don't need a VTOL as you can get into each biome at ground level. A rover (which until you get actual rover wheels will be a wingless airplane) suffices.

You can always build conventional rockets in the SPH and launch them vertically on the runway, but that rather defeats the purpose. Still, maybe you could do a shuttle? The main problem with any such option, however, is that it can leave launch clamps on the runway, which can complicate your landing .

[KerikBalm]

Ramjets are way up in the tech tree and I think they're nerfed now with the new atmo (just speculation, I haven't unlocket them yet).

The turboramjets are very good, and you can make SSTOs with them that have very good range and payload capacity with just lvl 2 facilities.

As far as I can see... Basic jets aren't very useful... I tried to make a basic jet:LV-T45 spaceplane, and couldn't get to orbit with it.

What you may be able to do, is make a suborbital rocket glider that just takes off, goes straight up into space, gets some science, and falls back down.

Its a plane, just not an airbreather.

Likewise, you may be able to do a 2-stage design, a suborbital design that launches a small orbital rocket plane.

What do you mean planes only?

They have to be horizontally launched?

They have to land horizontally.

Would something like the space shuttle oribter count?

Do you need everything to be recoverable?

Do you need everything to be recoverable at KSC for 100% refunds?

I didn't transition to using planes until lvl 2 facilities and turbojets were unlocked.

Now I'm doing spaceplanes only.

[Old_Gaming_Geezer]

Gentlemen,

thanks for all the information. Hopefully over the next few days I'll get a chance to get back to my game (DAMN YOU REAL LIFE!!!) and I will look at the science in the KSC, try some rocket plane designs. My next major goal is to get sub-orbital, which I think I can do with what I have but I will be sucking the KSC dry of all science before I do that.

To answer KerikBalm's specific questions:

What do you mean planes only? - In general, yes.

They have to be horizontally launched? - That's a rule I will try to stick to yes.

They have to land horizontally. - Not a deal breaker if I have to parachute a capsule back to kerbin.

Would something like the space shuttle oribter count? - I have done this before and this time I want to go different, so no.

Do you need everything to be recoverable? - No

Do you need everything to be recoverable at KSC for 100% refunds? - No, but I will try to get as close as I can.

[legoclone09]

What I would do is make a tech tree with 3 paths - Mk2/Mk3, SSTOs, and Science. Do something like the Mk2 SSTOs needing the Mk2 parts, and Mk3 SSTO needing Mk3 normal. The SSTO path might have LFO tanks and LFEs. I want to do this too, but a custom tech tree like what I described, and the VAB+launchpad blocked. There is a tech tree editor on the forums somewhere, and it works pretty good.

[Slam_Jones]

Heh, I did something sorta similar is 0.90. It was my "No VAB" save, which is pretty self-explanatory. Actually ended up getting really good at SSTO's on that save...

[Old_Gaming_Geezer]

I did the KSC science and managed to get a couple of sub orbital flights. Thank you everyone. Let the experiment continue.

[KerikBalm]

To answer KerikBalm's specific questions:

What do you mean planes only? - In general, yes.

That was more of a question asking you to define what a "plane" is, as the distinction can become quite blurry.

So far, it just seems to be a matter of horizontal launch.

So this basically requires wheels to be unlocked by collecting science around KSC.

Pure LFO engine designs are still OK I imagine? If I were to try this... I'm imagining starting with basically just rockets on wheels with a slight angle, and a lot of fins until jets are unlocked....

Even with basic jets... staging is needed, and it will be hard to recover the airbreather part.

So... designs like an X-15, with some strap on SRBs are the best I can come up with right now

[Old_Gaming_Geezer]

Sorry KerikBalm, I misread the question. What I mean by planes is all vehicles must launch horizontally from the runway. Last night I managed to get a successful sub-orbital flight using a rocket with jet engines and wings strapped to the sides using radial decouplers, in order to get airbourne. I then tilted up, staged away the wings and jet engines and engages the rocket engine. This took many attempts to get right.

- - - Updated - - -

What I would do is make a tech tree with 3 paths - Mk2/Mk3, SSTOs, and Science. Do something like the Mk2 SSTOs needing the Mk2 parts, and Mk3 SSTO needing Mk3 normal. The SSTO path might have LFO tanks and LFEs. I want to do this too, but a custom tech tree like what I described, and the VAB+launchpad blocked. There is a tech tree editor on the forums somewhere, and it works pretty good.

I really want to do it with stock parts, stock tech tree, to see if it can actually be done. I know that I could do it very easily if I have a modded tech tree, but that is not what I am trying to do at this time. Don't get me wrong, I love mods, use them all the time. But in this case I am only using things like KER and Science Alert for convenience.

[Lithocirkus]

Hey! you really inspired me with this idea .

I've been doing a plane only mode for the last week now and its awesome, really nice challenge and a good bit of ropeplay story for my kerbals. I became a little stuck at the same point, trying to unlock the nodes for turbojet. i ended up only taking the science and aero routes so my kerbals had a great idea... To help design a plane that works in space we needed to study planes in zero-gravity! So Jeb and Bill ran around KSC collecting all the things they would need to build tiny planes and asteroids and then we designed and built a zero-G plane, complete with a play roo...i mean a zero-g serious tiny plane testing bay. After diving from 14000m to get zero-g while 'analysing' how the timy planes behaved they were able to get a lot of data. 3 zero-g test flights later and after about a year and a half of analysis I just managed to get to my first SSTO plane and now trying to build to launch a satellite payload to get science from the mun and minimus SOI.

(sure i know strapping the MPL to a plane and diving about isn't neccessarily useful, but it made sense for my game and meant i had a viable reason to spend a year an a half warp for the science wall)

let me know how its going for you! really interested to see how you're tackling it!

[Pappus]

Shut up are you seriously getting spaceplanes done with basic jet engines? What is this madness. I am struggling to do it with turbojets

[Lithocirkus]

It depends what you mean by spaceplanes, sstos I'm not sure can be done with basic jets. At least without basically building a rocket with wings.

The way I went suborbital is described earlier in the thread, 2 thuds and a basic jet. There's nowhere near enough dV in that to circularise though.

Basically I took the funds-> science strategy at 25% ASAP and then did contracts and Kerbin biomes with the occasional suborbital hop to get the science I needed for turbos. Now building turbojet lifters to push probes further for more science!

[kcs123]

I know this was already said but the biggest problem is the tech tree. The game is heavily weighted towards space, despite the abundance of science experiments and biomes on Kerbin, and you basically have to supplement your science by doing missions outside the Kerbin SOI, which is problematic because you then need to spend science on rockets to perform more missions for more science. That's not to say it's impossible, I believe there is around 500 science on Kerbin itself, but it's a particularly strict path. However, like any challenge, in the case of a stock career you'll have to upgrade your SPH and runway to at least open up the freedom to pursue less orthodox methods.

I recommend to try SETIctt mod. Link is in my signature. You will still need to build a rocket or two for some basic probe placement, but building successful plane is possible much earlier in tech tree. Also it is quite useful to build ordinary plane/vtol that is going to provide much needed money from contracts or enough science to unlock early tree nodes without too much grinding to loose interest doing it at all.