Why is there a limit to the amount of parts you can use per vessel in early career mode?

[abowl]

Hello,

I dont understand why there is a limit to the amount of parts you can use in career mode when starting out.

It becomes harder for no apparant reason to make a proper probe for example. Even struts count, and decouplers etc. You run out of "space" really quick. I know the idea is to limit people in early career but they are already limited by money and amount of modules available, and the weight that the launch pad allows. It makes sense that you need to upgrade the VAB if you want to build large vessels. But why cant the smallest VAB support vessels with say 30 or more parts? I dont think it makes sense

[Shadows2b]

Why?

Carrer is like "story mode" you start small to end big. That's why you can't build big things in the begining. Just do some contracts and upgrade your building.

[Goddess Bhavani]

The part limit is to encourage a trend of efficiency and to encourage innovation - sure it sounds counter-intuitive at first, what with innovation being stifled by restriction, but it's not necessary to construct a 500 part monstrosity when 50 parts with a thoughtful layout can do the job better and with much higher framerates.

You also get to lift the restriction to 255 parts in short order. Which is plenty.

[Cuky]

I have been to Mun, Minmus and have mission ready and waiting for transfer window to Duna and I still haven't used more than 50-60 parts on my crafts. Crewed missions to the Mun and Minmus were tight on dV for a while with 30 parts limit, but they are easily doable after few trials and errors.

[NovaSilisko]

I seem to remember a long time ago on one of the dev streams, someone or another on the team went on a big rant about part limits in games - spore, in particular, and made a point in saying KSP would never have such things

Personally, part limits are unneccessary. Your parts are already limited by mass, volume, and money. You don't need an arbitrary "NOPE WE REFUSE TO ATTACH THIS FINAL WINGLET DUE TO LABOR LAWS" thing on top of that.

[regex]

Part count restrictions are stupid, especially when you're forced to make your rocket out of tiny little tanks, as if you're not restricted by the parts themselves. Basically the restriction exists because someone couldn't find a more interesting mechanic to level the VAB/SPH by. Blame the generally slapped-together and incoherent nature of career mode.

[G'th]

Well its not really arbitrary. It's limited because of the limits of your VAB. Can't exactly build a Saturn V in a typical garage.

That being said, height and weight restrictions are more accurate in this vein of thinking.

A better way might be to make the height and weight restrictions more constricting and then just get rid of the cap on part count.

It makes sense the level 1 VAB couldn't handle the complexity of a fully loaded Saturn V. But it doesn't make sense that you couldn't add an extra fin (that wouldn't add any significant weight or height) to your Mercury-Redstone just because it would mean you had 41 parts instead of 40.

Edited May 23, 2015 by G'th

[Fleb]

I also dislike the part count restrictions, they make the early parts of career dull because every rocket launch is almost identical. I would rather the only limit be how much it costs to build, compared to how much the contract is worth.

[SAI Peregrinus]

Remember that career mode is essentially the "hard mode" of KSP. It's best for advanced players who want an extra challenge. When you realize this all of the aspects that make it terrible for new players suddenly make sense.

[Bill Phil]

It's rather easy to deal with. You don't need big ships early on. I don't expect many people to go off to Minmus or the Mun on your first launch. I know I couldn't do it, and I'd say I'm an average player. Maybe I'm wrong, but I know the limit is there to prevent just that, going to Minmus on your first launch.

[regex]

It's rather easy to deal with. You don't need big ships early on. I don't expect many people to go off to Minmus or the Mun on your first launch. I know I couldn't do it, and I'd say I'm an average player. Maybe I'm wrong, but I know the limit is there to prevent just that, going to Minmus on your first launch.

Why prevent it? Just to hobble advanced players for some dumb reason? Consider that the next step (255 parts) is really no constraint once you've opened up enough of the tech tree to have large fuel tanks. Really all it does it make building a tedious process early on. E: If it's to create some sort of artificial "progression", well, I've done all that before, I don't need progression. New players will naturally have their own progression and don't need to be hobbled.

G'th makes an excellent point that height, width, and mass restrictions are much more meaningful than part count restrictions because they consider the size of the VAB rather than some strange constraint that really makes no sense.

Edited May 23, 2015 by regex

[hoojiwana]

Remember that career mode is essentially the "hard mode" of KSP. It's best for advanced players who want an extra challenge. When you realize this all of the aspects that make it terrible for new players suddenly make sense.

Remember that career is actually intended for new players and is supposed to be there to slowly ease them into playing the game. That is why the tech tree introduces parts slowly, that is why the contracts system leads you on a path to orbit and beyond, that is why tourists pay to repeat simple launches at the start of career (to let the new player practice those things and not feel like they're wasting time).

[WinkAllKerb'']

"historical" tech knowledge progress over time is somehow emulated this way (it could at least no ?).

Also it encourage the habit to use as less part as possible wich is pretty relevant on some aspect even if mass&++ are too on some others.

Edited May 23, 2015 by WinkAllKerb''

[LittleBlueGaming]

I actually like it, and I haven't played in sandbox mode yet. Yeah, you could limit by mass or something else instead, but I don't want to be able to launch to the Mun for a science run by stacking a bunch of FL-T100s in parallel. It's a good mechanic for forcing you to progress in career mode naturally. You need to start small, research new tech, upgrade your facilities.

It could be a little annoying if you can't just attach your fins, but when that happens I just figure out what else I can do without. This has forced me to try to be more efficient, which I think is a good thing. Later on I tend to build too much delta-v, because I can and don't care that much about a little extra cost.

It doesn't take long at all to get the first upgrade for the VAB either.

[basic.syntax]

I would agree that it is not realistic, in the sense that early rocket builders never had a parts limit imposed on them. Apparently this is a debatable concept even inside Squad, but, I think adding an easily overcome early-game 30-part count restriction to mass/dimensions, is as legitimate of a game concept to include, as other arbitrary things folks come up with in the spacecraft challenge thread. It's a puzzle challenge. Again, the key part for me is the first tier restriction is easily overcome.

I think it's less easily overcome than it could be, perhaps due to the missing upgrade Tier, which may have increased the planned first upgrade cost. Tier 0 was planned from the beginning but yanked close to release after forum outcry over design and polish. The intended cost and limit numbers may have been compressed. 3-tier 30/255/unlimited could become something like 4-tier 30/125/255/unlimited. I don't think they would increase "30", because the most the first batch of contracts intend for us to do, is achieve orbit & perhaps fly by the moons. They might go even lower when Tier 0 is finalized.

[Wallygator]

Career mode is completely synthetic and has no bearing on any dimension of realism or fantasy.

It is only a means to introduce players to a plethora of parts imho.

It should be scrapped and redesigned if it is to be properly criticized.

[Bobnova]

arbitrary "NOPE WE REFUSE TO ATTACH THIS FINAL WINGLET DUE TO LABOR LAWS" thing on top of that.

I don't know, that sounds pretty realistic to me.

[WinkAllKerb'']

(xDr remind me someone whinning to me about his 35hour/week, hey guy do you know i used to do 40hour per day ? ; )

[Bill Phil]

Why prevent it? Just to hobble advanced players for some dumb reason? Consider that the next step (255 parts) is really no constraint once you've opened up enough of the tech tree to have large fuel tanks. Really all it does it make building a tedious process early on. E: If it's to create some sort of artificial "progression", well, I've done all that before, I don't need progression. New players will naturally have their own progression and don't need to be hobbled.

G'th makes an excellent point that height, width, and mass restrictions are much more meaningful than part count restrictions because they consider the size of the VAB rather than some strange constraint that really makes no sense.

There's sandbox, you know. I assume you play that much more often.

I'm not saying it's perfect, it's just easy to deal with, so easy that I don't see a problem. In fact, it forces me to be more thrifty in earlier rocket designs, which is a good thing to keep in the later stages of the game.

[Lord Aurelius]

That 30 part limit is easily one of the most annoying restrictions introduced with upgradeable buildings (right along with limiting action groups). For me, it's very much an artificial limitation that seems to be a poorly thought out attempt to limit players to simpler craft early in the game, but in my experience it simply means I have to grind to upgrade the VAB ASAP (or increase my starting funds so I can just upgrade it right off).

At least there's a mod now that lets you change the limits: CustomBarnKit

[samstarman5]

Why prevent it? Just to hobble advanced players for some dumb reason? Consider that the next step (255 parts) is really no constraint once you've opened up enough of the tech tree to have large fuel tanks. Really all it does it make building a tedious process early on. E: If it's to create some sort of artificial "progression", well, I've done all that before, I don't need progression. New players will naturally have their own progression and don't need to be hobbled.

G'th makes an excellent point that height, width, and mass restrictions are much more meaningful than part count restrictions because they consider the size of the VAB rather than some strange constraint that really makes no sense.

If it really bothers you so much, realize you do have a handy tool to give yourself enough funds to upgrade the VAB or SPH at the start. It doesn't have to hold you back, and there are valid points presented to the reasoning of restricting part counts. Foaming at the mouth over something that is actually rather trivial when you think about it is a bit overboard. Sometimes I wonder from your posts that you might be taking this game way too seriously.

[Red Iron Crown]

Also it encourage the habit to use as less part as possible wich is pretty relevant on some aspect even if mass&++ are too on some others.

That's a good point. To some degree the mechanic teaches the player to think about part count, which is the most important thing to minimize for best game performance.

[GoSlash27]

I like the early career part limitation.

It doesn't stop you from doing what you're trying to do, it just forces you to find ways to make do with less and gives you a reason to want to upgrade the VAB.

I was able to do LKO science, orbit, rescue, and munar flyby with the 30 part limit. By the time all that's done, there's plenty of money to upgrade and nothing competing for the funds.

Best,

-Slashy

[regex]

Foaming at the mouth over something that is actually rather trivial when you think about it is a bit overboard.

How am I foaming at the mouth? Seriously, if my post is what constitutes over-emotionalism around here then I'm certainly not the problem...

[PB666]

I seem to remember a long time ago on one of the dev streams, someone or another on the team went on a big rant about part limits in games - spore, in particular, and made a point in saying KSP would never have such things

Personally, part limits are unneccessary. Your parts are already limited by mass, volume, and money. You don't need an arbitrary "NOPE WE REFUSE TO ATTACH THIS FINAL WINGLET DUE TO LABOR LAWS" thing on top of that.

Obviously since you can make parts you can combine two parts into one and bypass the limit.

1. Mod a capsule with mechjeb installed in it.

2. Mod a tank with your favor engine.

3. Mod parts to make the stronger and not need strut connectors.

4. Capsule with a builtin antenna, or solar cells.

5. Mat science with goo.

BTW, I liked spore . . . . . a real space stage..... Conquered the galaxy, at least the grox part of it.

I particularly liked the part about dropping volcanoes on cities.

- - - Updated - - -

I have only one real complaint about early game . . . . . .I need wheels... training wheels will do.