RIP SSTO, long live SSTO?

[Foxster]

Unlike pre-1.0, spaceplane SSTOs aren't really that good these days. You have to build a pretty expensive beast just to get a spare tank into orbit. Beyond the Kerbin system is not nearly as easy or practical with an SSTO now.

Seems that most of the spaceplane SSTOs show-cased now are more for looks or the hell of if rather than something to pop over to Jool aboard.

What might be more practical is to use a rocket SSTO that gets 'chuted with or without rocket-assist back to Kerbin. Only uses the cost of the fuel.

This kind of thing:

Thoughts?

[cicatrix]

I use Stage Recovery. If you're against mods then simply a computer core with a battery on your first stage and parachutes then make them deploy with the decoupler. There's a fair change they will land safely and you will be able to recover it.

[Foxster]

I use Stage Recovery. If you're against mods then simply a computer core with a battery on your first stage and parachutes then make them deploy with the decoupler. There's a fair change they will land safely and you will be able to recover it.

Umm, I've not succeeded with that so far. I tend to lose one or the other ships. And, yes, modding that process would be step too far for me.

[Pecan]

...Beyond the Kerbin system is not nearly as easy or practical with an SSTO now.

Which part of 'To Orbit' was ever meant to go beyond Kerbin system?

[Goomblah]

SSTOs are probably the best way to get cargo and Kerbals to and from a Laythe base, if reusability is a concern. One capable of taking an orange tank to orbit would be handy for a refueling station around Laythe, since you could mine the surface for fuel, then take the ore/fuel (depending on your refining preferences) to orbit, as opposed to sending a tanker from a distant location like the Kerbin system.

[Pecan]

SSTOs are probably the best way to get cargo and Kerbals to and from a Laythe base, if reusability is a concern.

If reusability is a concern then all your landers had better be SSTOs, just as mine are.

Or did you mean spaceplanes?

[GoSlash27]

Foxster,

SSTOs were never really intended to lift large assemblies or take you all the way to Jool. The latter, especially, is an inefficient use of resources.

SSTOs are still the way to go for ferrying kerbals and supplies to stations in LKO. For large structures and assemblies, you don't save very much by building a big complex SSTO vs. a disposable lifter.

Best,

-Slashy

[KerikBalm]

Confirming SSTOs are terrible for getting payloads to orbit...

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/11377237_10103614966819343_815094391064797949_n.jpg?oh=f227d7fe95add6604c86c4448736b3b6&oe=55C1B44D

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/10441055_10103614966504973_7518848353140663427_n.jpg?oh=3cfe12cd27942e0856ea072c806e3bc0&oe=5600DA04&__gda__=1438608730_0c3bc409c5c907d21eaac086fca6680d

(Note, tanks did not start full)

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/t31.0-8/s720x720/11000540_10103582135358853_5504031967368108229_o.jpg

(wait, did you mean Kerbit orbit, or orbit of the Mun?)

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/11128372_10103556941692163_5969436014410157581_n.jpg?oh=b71914d4075df682d1fff2b38be508f0&oe=55F3AF15

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/11169977_10103556941876793_5047754620428730733_n.jpg?oh=e3e9c168448b23cfeb27fe7e036e0b03&oe=55FCE8BA&__gda__=1443132161_e2747edbc62d92bebdb15ba47c8e301a

(why bother lifting that much fuel when you have ISRU anyway... see first pic for lifting an ISRU setup intended for duna- hence the chutes)

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t31.0-8/s720x720/11032221_10103550674651363_2148940416804389397_o.jpg

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/11164685_10103550674182303_2013766903372658940_n.jpg?oh=e1dd17466d64fa6ca9843eb6f1b7bd00&oe=55FA3B68

Ok, yes, those are expensive... but so is a disposable rocket launching payload of that size...

The fuel costs are no insignificant... but take an orbital tourist or two, and its paid for.... just land it at KSC.

A rocket (non-airbreathing) SSTO will have even higher fuel costs, and be even harder to get full recovery.

No thank you

[Slam_Jones]

I dunno, in 0.90 they could certainly be put to good use... and I wasn't even very good at them.

A station, and the SSTO that ferried each module up to it.

I haven't been as successful in 1.0x, but I'm sure it's still possible to build a station using only modules taken up via spaceplane.

[Tankman101]

Beyond the Kerbin system is not nearly as easy or practical with an SSTO now.

TIL: Single Stage to Orbit actually means Single Stage to Laythe

[TimePeriod]

I never really liked SSTO's.

I can throw together a rocket at a fraction of the cost.

So to me, they are not useless but just - very limited.

[Red Iron Crown]

IP SSTO is still a thing, if you're inclined to want one. Build one big enough for an ISRU system and SSTJustAboutAnywhere is possible (stay away from Tylo and Eve, though).

[GoSlash27]

I never really liked SSTO's.

I can throw together a rocket at a fraction of the cost.

So to me, they are not useless but just - very limited.

I have always liked SSTOs, but this analysis is pretty spot-on.

Rockets are cheaper for initial outlay, but SSTOs are cheaper to operate long term *provided* they are actually safe, reliable, and designed to do an SSTO's job. A good SSTO is also much more difficult to design and operate than a disposable rocket.

They are indeed very limited, but the best thing going within their limitations.

Best,

-Slashy

[problemecium]

SSTO rockets have always been practical. It's just that now that the aerodynamic model is making people rethink their strategies, people are realizing that planes aren't always the answer.

Also, in my experience so far a spaceplane is still a practical solution for getting Kerbals and small bits of cargo off and back to Kerbin without spending oodles on a massive rocketship.

[Mister Dilsby]

They may not be much good for payloads anymore, but in V1.x my payloads don't really come from Kerbin anyway. Freighters carry loads of ore from the minty mines of Minmus to orbital stations, where they are converted into fuel and oxidant. Exploration vehicles, asteroid tugs and other capital ships travel from station to station and never land.

What I do use SSTOs for is to ferry crew to and from stations in LKO. My best design is a LF-only (TRJ and nuclear) plane that gets to orbit in about 10 minutes of real time and can dead-stick the runway from orbit. The 'science' variant carries a full experimental suite, the 'transport' version seats six. Am considering scaling the design up to a "v90" style medium cargo hauler, for missions that require ore to be brought to the surface. So yeah, still useful, IF you use them in a realistic SSTO mission and are not expecting to be able to fly a single-seat fighter from Tatooine to Dagobah.

[Orbital Vagabond]

Unlike pre-1.0, spaceplane SSTOs aren't really that good these days. You have to build a pretty expensive beast just to get a spare tank into orbit. Beyond the Kerbin system is not nearly as easy or practical with an SSTO now.

I assume "Spare tank" refers to a full orange tank, weighing in 36t total, 32t of which is reaction mass.

It's always seemed a bizzare standard by which an SSTO's utility is judged, but seems to be widely used by the community. Most of my LKO payloads weigh less 20% of that, and most of my modular stations weighed less than 36t in their entirety.

The closest functional spacecraft we have IRL to compare to an SSTO is the shuttle. The shuttle made something like 15 or 16 fights to the ISS, which consists of more than 20 modules (including the various trusses). Even the shuttle couldn't carry a load comparable to an orange tank to the station, and it's not even an SSTO.

Basically my point is that I don't think it's fair to claim "SSTOs are dead" because it's more difficult for them to get an oversized payload to orbit.

- - - Updated - - -

What I do use SSTOs for is to ferry crew to and from stations in LKO.

This has always been the most appropriate mission for an SSTO: Moving crew and material between the KSC and LKO. It just makes more sense to let other specialized vehicles handle everything else. In fact, that was job description of the shuttle in the original description of the Space Transportation System.

[problemecium]

BTW, I made this to clear things up for people:

As everyone has been saying, don't say "SSTOs are dead" and only mean spaceplanes (and those aren't dead anyway, but we've covered that).

[magnemoe]

TIL: Single Stage to Orbit actually means Single Stage to Laythe

This, note that taking an SSTO able of doing landings is rough terrain to Laythe is an smart move.

You obviously refuel at LKO, go to Minmus for an second refuel drop to LKO again for the boost and it cost you 1500 m/s to reach Jool. here you might dock with an tanker before landing.

- - - Updated - - -

BTW, I made this to clear things up for people:

http://i.imgur.com/l03WwUv.png

As everyone has been saying, don't say "SSTOs are dead" and only mean spaceplanes (and those aren't dead anyway, but we've covered that).

This, the only two who don't exist real life it the SSTO and the SSTO spaceplane.

Fighter planes with drop tanks was used regularly during WW2.

[Geschosskopf]

This, note that taking an SSTO able of doing landings is rough terrain to Laythe is an smart move.

You obviously refuel at LKO, go to Minmus for an second refuel drop to LKO again for the boost and it cost you 1500 m/s to reach Jool. here you might dock with an tanker before landing

To be useful for rotating crews, a spaceplane needs a docking port. If you put this on one end of the fuselage instead of using an inline port, you can hook a transfer tug to the spaceplane once in orbit and take it wherever. Then you don't need a refueling station in LKO. Putting the tug on the nose is probably best, so you can aerocapture at both Jool and Laythe using the tug as the heavy, shielded thing in front and the spaceplane's wings in the back pointing the right direction through the atmosphere. Once at Laythe, the spaceplane just needs enough fuel to deorbit and then, if you don't come down in the right place, fly however far to the designated LZ where it will be refueled via ISRU. Thus, you can send the spaceplane out with essentially empty tanks, making the transfer tug's job easier, and maybe top it up with a little leftover tug fuel as needed prior to descent.

Spaceplanes are IMHO the best way to go for reusable Laythe landers, PROVIDED you give them good STOL and off-road capabilities and find a good LZ for them. Their advantage over conventional landers is that heat shields go away eventually and can't be replaced in the field. Plus it's easier to hit some of the smaller islands with a plane than a lander

[kStrout]

I find that SSTO's in 1.0 need to be very areodynamic, flat wings just don't work, but if you make something that looks like a skinny arrowhead, it works quite well.

[Mister Dilsby]

BTW, I made this to clear things up for people:

+rep, but maybe a picture of a plane WITH drop tanks in the cyan?

[BDelacroix]

I'm not so good at making space planes and already have more than a few candidates that just need an engine that will work beyond 12k to get into OUTER SPACE!!!

[Red Iron Crown]

To be useful for rotating crews, a spaceplane needs a docking port.

How quickly we forget when crew transfer was EVA only.

[Geschosskopf]

How quickly we forget when crew transfer was EVA only.

Isn't it still that way in stock? If not, I had no idea. Besides, if you're got to move a dozen Kerbals, it's a lot easier with the units docked so they don't drift too far apart or, worse, into each other .

But anyway, you'll probably still have to refuel the thing in Laythe orbit, and you need a port for that.

[Mesklin]

I know that SSTO impractical in every areas of space activities, except delivering cargo and passengers to Kerbin and Laythe orbit and for round-trip flight to Laythe, but creating these things so interesting engineering task, so attractive . And now I am finishing my old dream: SSTO with infinity range, with ISRU and drills on board (all bodies accessible, except Tylo and Eve)