Constellation Mission Packs Discussion Thread!

[Mad Rocket Scientist]

Got it!  It was a strut endpoint, clipped into the DAV.

[Majorjim!]

2 hours ago, Mad Rocket Scientist said:

Got it!  It was a strut endpoint, clipped into the DAV.

 

Glad you found it mate!

 How many parts in your cargo lander may I ask?

[Mad Rocket Scientist]

10 hours ago, Majorjim said:

Glad you found it mate!

 How many parts in your cargo lander may I ask?

550 with the aeroshell, 460 without.  

[Majorjim!]

Just now, Mad Rocket Scientist said:

550 with the aeroshell, 460 without.  

About the same as mine, maybe a little less. I get realtime gameplay with over 600 parts on screen in one vehicle now, over 800 realtime with multiple craft, its awesome!

[pTrevTrevs]

Oops.

[Majorjim!]

11 hours ago, pTrevTrevs said:

Oops.

Yeah that happens sometimes.. What came before that 'moment'?

[pTrevTrevs]

3 hours ago, Majorjim said:

Yeah that happens sometimes.. What came before that 'moment'?

The fairing flipped over, presumably because the center of mass was too far back with the aeroshell attached, and the lander didn't slow down enough for the parachutes to deploy soon enough to slow the lander. Once the lander flipped, I was unable to get it back, and it crashed into Duna.

[Majorjim!]

Just now, pTrevTrevs said:

The fairing flipped over, presumably because the center of mass was too far back with the aeroshell attached, and the lander didn't slow down enough for the parachutes to deploy soon enough to slow the lander. Once the lander flipped, I was unable to get it back, and it crashed into Duna.

The aeroshell flipped backwards or upside down during descent? If you are using the stock procedural fairings I would recommend facing the aeroshell nose to radial out or in other words enter nose up. It presents a much large surface to the airflow and will slow you sufficiently and at a good altitude to allow plenty of time to deploy the aeroshell, chutes and descent engines without the lander flipping at all. The stock fairings are super slippery.

 To perform a proper EDL with an aeroshell you do not want it to flip at all. it's not only unrealistic but dangerous! Just one of the many major challenges to overcome in making a constellation mission!

Edited June 21, 2016 by Majorjim

[NSEP]

16 hours ago, pTrevTrevs said:

Oops.

But hey! You made it to Duna right? Or did u just use HyperEdit to test it out.

[pTrevTrevs]

35 minutes ago, Majorjim said:

The aeroshell flipped backwards or upside down during descent? If you are using the stock procedural fairings I would recommend facing the aeroshell nose to radial out or in other words enter nose up. It presents a much large surface to the airflow and will slow you sufficiently and at a good altitude to allow plenty of time to deploy the aeroshell, chutes and descent engines without the lander flipping at all. The stock fairings are super slippery.

 To perform a proper EDL with an aeroshell you do not want it to flip at all. it's not only unrealistic but dangerous! Just one of the many major challenges to overcome in making a constellation mission!

The aeroshell flipped backwards so that the end with the docking port was facing the direction of flight. It wasn't enough to cause the ship to  burn up (because Duna's "atmosphere" is a joke anyway), but it couldn't slow down enough to let the drogue chutes open high enough to do anything, which also meant the mains deployed too late. I see two option to fix this, since I'm already high on part count and stick fairings are really my only option left. I could spam reaction wheels in an attempt to manhandle the aeroshell in position throughout the entire EDL, I could place a counterweight in the front of the aeroshell to offset the heavy fairing bases, or I could do both.

23 minutes ago, NSEP said:

But hey! You made it to Duna right? Or did u just use HyperEdit to test it out.

Hyperedit, of course. I don't want to spend nearly an hour (real time) flying a lander to Duna only to have it fail on me because of an easy mistake.

[NSEP]

Just now, pTrevTrevs said:

The aeroshell flipped backwards so that the end with the docking port was facing the direction of flight. It wasn't enough to cause the ship to  burn up (because Duna's "atmosphere" is a joke anyway), but it couldn't slow down enough to let the drogue chutes open high enough to do anything, which also meant the mains deployed too late. I see two option to fix this, since I'm already high on part count and stick fairings are really my only option left. I could spam reaction wheels in an attempt to manhandle the aeroshell in position throughout the entire EDL, I could place a counterweight in the front of the aeroshell to offset the heavy fairing bases, or I could do both.

Hyperedit, of course. I don't want to spend nearly an hour (real time) flying a lander to Duna only to have it fail on me because of an easy mistake.

 

Just now, pTrevTrevs said:

The aeroshell flipped backwards so that the end with the docking port was facing the direction of flight. It wasn't enough to cause the ship to  burn up (because Duna's "atmosphere" is a joke anyway), but it couldn't slow down enough to let the drogue chutes open high enough to do anything, which also meant the mains deployed too late. I see two option to fix this, since I'm already high on part count and stick fairings are really my only option left. I could spam reaction wheels in an attempt to manhandle the aeroshell in position throughout the entire EDL, I could place a counterweight in the front of the aeroshell to offset the heavy fairing bases, or I could do both.

Hyperedit, of course. I don't want to spend nearly an hour (real time) flying a lander to Duna only to have it fail on me because of an easy mistake.

Oh.

[Majorjim!]

Just now, pTrevTrevs said:

The aeroshell flipped backwards so that the end with the docking port was facing the direction of flight. It wasn't enough to cause the ship to  burn up (because Duna's "atmosphere" is a joke anyway), but it couldn't slow down enough to let the drogue chutes open high enough to do anything, which also meant the mains deployed too late. I see two option to fix this, since I'm already high on part count and stick fairings are really my only option left. I could spam reaction wheels in an attempt to manhandle the aeroshell in position throughout the entire EDL, I could place a counterweight in the front of the aeroshell to offset the heavy fairing bases, or I could do both.

Do neither. When you are in the high Duna atmosphere set the position of the aeroshell and then touch nothing. Do not adjust it's position again until you deploy it. Unless you already do that and it flips backwards all the same?

[pTrevTrevs]

Just now, Majorjim said:

Do neither. When you are in the high Duna atmosphere set the position of the aeroshell and then touch nothing. Do not adjust it's position again until you deploy it. Unless you already do that and it flips backwards all the same?

I've been trying to keep the nose pointed about 30 degrees above the horizon throughout the descent, until I past the area where reentry heating occurs, at which point I try and make it more level before deploying the aeroshell and the chutes.

[The_Shortline_Gamer]

Hello! I know it's probability a little bit too late to join this thread, but I have wanted to do something like this for a long while. I haven't had the time to undertake a huge project about this because of finals, but now I am on summer break I will finally be able to do this. I've been looking thorough this thread, and everyone has really nice crafts. I will try to match the quality of everyone else craft. However I might want to wait until KSP V1.1.3 due to the mods I have installed.  

Edited June 21, 2016 by The_Shortline_Gamer
Forgot Some Info

[Majorjim!]

Just now, pTrevTrevs said:

I've been trying to keep the nose pointed about 30 degrees above the horizon throughout the descent, until I past the area where reentry heating occurs, at which point I try and make it more level before deploying the aeroshell and the chutes.

Try setting the shell nose up nearly 90degrees to show a large surface area to slow you properly and don't adjust the position (don't touch the arrow keys) until after the shell and chutes deploy. It should stop the shell from flipping.

Just now, The_Shortline_Gamer said:

Hello! I know it's probability a little bit too late to join this thread, but I have wanted to do something like this for a long while. I haven't had the time to undertake a huge project about this because of finals, but now I am on summer break I will finally be able to do this. I've been looking thorough this thread, and everyone has really nice crafts. I will try to match the quality of everyone else craft.  

Welcome! It is never too late to start a constellation pack man, as long as there is KSP there will be people trying to do it!

 I wish you good luck and I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

[The_Shortline_Gamer]

10 minutes ago, Majorjim said:

Welcome! It is never too late to start a constellation pack man, as long as there is KSP there will be people trying to do it!

 I wish you good luck and I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

I have made my Orion CEV/MPCV already. I made it back in V1.0.5, and I have to update it to V1.1.2 . It uses a Kodiak V3.0 lifter, however I can make an Ares I replica for it.

Edited June 21, 2016 by The_Shortline_Gamer
Grammar mistakes

[Majorjim!]

Just now, The_Shortline_Gamer said:

I have made my Orion CEV/MPCV already. I made it back in V1.0.5, and I have to update it to V1.1.2 . It uses a Kodiak V3.0 lifter, however I can make an Ares I replica for it.

Yeah getting all the craft made is a lot of fun! Feel free to share pics or keep them secret if you like!

[pTrevTrevs]

I tried another EDL with the advice @Majorjim gave me, but the outcome was still the same.

Atmospheric Entry Interface, SAS is set to Radial In, it looks good so far.

About a minute later the aeroshell flips. The SAS and aerodynamic forces are locked in a bitter struggle for the craft's attitude, which stays about halfway between the retrograde vector and Radial In. Altitude is 6km above terrain, speed about 750 m/s.

1,000 meters above terrain, rocks are discernible, but the craft is still in the wrong attitude and going to fast for the parachutes to safely open.

At 1,000 meters altitude and a speed of over 600m/s, not even the engines can save the lander. It crashes into the surface once again.

Edited June 21, 2016 by pTrevTrevs
Why the hell is SAS underlined? It shouldn't be underlined.

[Majorjim!]

Just now, pTrevTrevs said:

I tried another EDL with the advice @Majorjim gave me, but the outcome was still the same.

Hmm.. Well It will have slowed you better in that position but the fact it flips even with no inputs during descent is concerning.

  There are other solutions but they are not ideal in a replica of this kind. You could try using airbrakes? and or rear mounted drogue chutes?

 The best solution is the hardest sadly and that is to make a custom fairing. They have perfect drag for a nose first entry and can be configured in any way you like. Maybe give one a go?

OH OH! I just had a thought. What is your Pe for aerobraking? I have done extensive testing and 30,000 is the butter zone. If done right you wont see and entry plasma/flames. Try that nose up position, no input touching and Pe at 30,000 and report back.

 

[pTrevTrevs]

20 minutes ago, Majorjim said:

Hmm.. Well It will have slowed you better in that position but the fact it flips even with no inputs during descent is concerning.

  There are other solutions but they are not ideal in a replica of this kind. You could try using airbrakes? and or rear mounted drogue chutes?

 The best solution is the hardest sadly and that is to make a custom fairing. They have perfect drag for a nose first entry and can be configured in any way you like. Maybe give one a go?

OH OH! I just had a thought. What is your Pe for aerobraking? I have done extensive testing and 30,000 is the butter zone. If done right you wont see and entry plasma/flames. Try that nose up position, no input touching and Pe at 30,000 and report back.

 

I think I'm going to try using a fuel tank or ore tank as a counterweight in the nose of the fairing. I think that it's going to flip no matter what, because it has always flipped around the same altitude, so I'm guessing its caused by the atmospheric pressure, not so much the speed or the presence of reentry heating. 

Custom Fairings are not really a possibility for me, since the lander alone is already 500 parts, with the Ares V or the NTR stage plug a custom fairing, there is a chance it will be too much for my computer to handle. From what I understand, 1.1 didn't remove the limit at which parts begin to cause lag, it just raised it a lot higher. Besides, lots of parts still cause FPS drop, at least for me, and I'm trying to keep it as economical as possible (while sacrificing as little detail as possible) for anyone who may want to try the pack but has a bad computer.

My trajectory is usually a somewhat shallow suborbital trajectory, although it may turn out differently during an actual mission. The small maneuvering engines don't have enough fuel to slow the craft enough for this kind of trajectory, but I try it anyway because I'm not willing to trust Duna's sparse atmosphere unless I'm absolutely sure to hit the ground. (seriously, I usually start the lander in an orbit of about 60km, which only allows me 10x time warp. if I were to fail to land and had to come around again, the wait time would be excruciating

[Majorjim!]

Just now, pTrevTrevs said:

I think I'm going to try using a fuel tank or ore tank as a counterweight in the nose of the fairing. I think that it's going to flip no matter what, because it has always flipped around the same altitude, so I'm guessing its caused by the atmospheric pressure, not so much the speed or the presence of reentry heating. 

Custom Fairings are not really a possibility for me, since the lander alone is already 500 parts, with the Ares V or the NTR stage plug a custom fairing, there is a chance it will be too much for my computer to handle. From what I understand, 1.1 didn't remove the limit at which parts begin to cause lag, it just raised it a lot higher. Besides, lots of parts still cause FPS drop, at least for me, and I'm trying to keep it as economical as possible (while sacrificing as little detail as possible) for anyone who may want to try the pack but has a bad computer.

My trajectory is usually a somewhat shallow suborbital trajectory, although it may turn out differently during an actual mission. The small maneuvering engines don't have enough fuel to slow the craft enough for this kind of trajectory, but I try it anyway because I'm not willing to trust Duna's sparse atmosphere unless I'm absolutely sure to hit the ground. (seriously, I usually start the lander in an orbit of about 60km, which only allows me 10x time warp. if I were to fail to land and had to come around again, the wait time would be excruciating

I understand the part count issue. I have done successful EDLs with a stock fairing but it absolutely required that Pe of 30,000m

 I know Duna EDL very well and a Pe of 30,000 will drop you in EVERY time. You will have to set it at round 50,000 to go round twice dude. Even for an interplanetary aerobrake, which you should try at some point as it will differ somewhat from a testing hyper edited orbits. I use it too, I know what a godsend it is but the first lander, the cargo lander to arrive at Duna aerobrakes at interplanetary speeds.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Majorjim

[pTrevTrevs]

7 minutes ago, Majorjim said:

 I know Duna EDL very well and a Pe of 30,000 will drop you in EVERY time.

Do you know anything about pinpoint landings? I've been wondering how I'm going to land the Crew Lander right next to the Cargo Lander when I've only ever ever done an EDL on Duna about three or four times, and none of them were targeted landings.

[Mad Rocket Scientist]

5 minutes ago, pTrevTrevs said:

Do you know anything about pinpoint landings? I've been wondering how I'm going to land the Crew Lander right next to the Cargo Lander when I've only ever ever done an EDL on Duna about three or four times, and none of them were targeted landings.

I'm not sure how well trajectories is working with the new atmo, but have a look at it: 

 

 

And I'm testing out the new NTRPS:

[MrMeeb]

3 minutes ago, Mad Rocket Scientist said:

I'm not sure how well trajectories is working with the new atmo, but have a look at it: 

 

 

And I'm testing out the new NTRPS:

Is that just the Mk3 cargo bay? It looks too round!  

[Majorjim!]

Just now, pTrevTrevs said:

Do you know anything about pinpoint landings? I've been wondering how I'm going to land the Crew Lander right next to the Cargo Lander when I've only ever ever done an EDL on Duna about three or four times, and none of them were targeted landings.

Well when it worked the trajectory mod worked great. It may have been updated but the new aero broke it I think. 

 For normal orbits you just need to make sure you are burning at the same point and for the same duration as the landed target vehicle. Even with the trajectories mod and with the lack of guidance computers it is very tricky. 

 For a constellation mission it is doubly so as the first lander aerobrakes at interplanetary speed and the second from a stable orbit. 

---------------------------------

Looking good @Mad Rocket Scientist but why a white tank for it? Also, one honest criticism, the fairing could be cleaned up a little with the rotation tool.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Majorjim