Sadness. Just found another thing that was broke in 1.0

[DerpenWolf]

Welp, Apparently the changes the ion engines and solar panels in ksp 1.0 just barely broke duna ion lander VTOL SSTO's. Hopefully we can get an atmospheric isp change for the ion engine or a solar panel buff so we can continue to build these ultra light flyers. Here are some pics of the fun while it lasted.

Edited June 6, 2015 by DerpenWolf

[Stratzenblitz75]

Why? Even with the ISP and solar power changes, Ion engines are still OP IMO. You can land a one man capsule on pretty much any planet smaller than the Mun with just battery power and ion engines (Yes this includes the outer planets/moons as well, you don't NEED solar panels for constant charge when 3K electricity can give an ion engine 6 minutes of burn time). It seems unnecessary that they should be able to get a TWR of >1 on Duna on top this. Anyways, I doubt that ion powered SSTOs are impossible on Duna. Have you tried using wings? An Ion powered glider should easily be able to make orbit.

[TheMegaPlane]

Why? Even with the ISP and solar power changes, Ion engines are still OP IMO. You can land a one man capsule on pretty much any planet smaller than the Mun with just battery power and ion engines (Yes this includes the outer planets/moons as well, you don't NEED solar panels for constant charge when 3K electricity can give an ion engine 6 minutes of burn time). It seems unnecessary that they should be able to get a TWR of >1 on Duna on top this. Anyways, I doubt that ion powered SSTOs are impossible on Duna. Have you tried using wings? An Ion powered glider should easily be able to make orbit.

Have you used them lately on kerbin they struggle to go above 3m/s on kerbin I highly doubt a stto would be impossible.

[mythbusters844]

Have you used them lately on kerbin they struggle to go above 3m/s on kerbin I highly doubt a stto would be impossible.

That's because Kerbin's atmosphere is much denser than Duna's so they have less Isp and therefore less thrust.

[NovaSilisko]

The state of ion engines in general brings me great frustration. The thrust is far, far too high. They flat-out should not work in an atmosphere of any kind. They're supposed to be for very small spacecraft, orbit-to-orbit only. Not landers. Never landers.

[Richy teh space man]

If they did have realistic thrust though, burn times would be ridiculous..

[Captain Sierra]

If they did have realistic thrust though, burn times would be ridiculous..

There is was a mod that nerfed the hell out of them and then let them burn at time warp. I believe the vessel still had to be focused and it also did not take into account SAS holding a variable vector (such as prograde or retrograde), but it existed for a time.

[NovaSilisko]

If they did have realistic thrust though, burn times would be ridiculous..

Well, there's a middle ground to be occupied between "realistic" and "ridiculous". Enough thrust that a small probe can perform orbital maneuvers in a reasonable timespan, but not enough for it to land on anything (except maybe gilly, which used to be the limit of what was possible with ion engines). Making it as large and heavy as it is right now was a bit of a mistake, in hindsight. Look at the size of Dawn's ion engines, for instance:

[Richy teh space man]

There is was a mod that nerfed the hell out of them and then let them burn at time warp. I believe the vessel still had to be focused and it also did not take into account SAS holding a variable vector (such as prograde or retrograde), but it existed for a time.

Time warping with them more then physics warp can would make it tolerable..

Well, there's a middle ground to be occupied between "realistic" and "ridiculous". Enough thrust that a small probe can perform orbital maneuvers in a reasonable timespan, but not enough for it to land on anything (except maybe gilly, which used to be the limit of what was possible with ion engines). Making it as large and heavy as it is right now was a bit of a mistake, in hindsight. Look at the size of Dawn's ion engines, for instance:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/08/PIA18922-DawnSpacecraftArrivingAtCeres-ArtistConcept-20150302.jpg/800px-PIA18922-DawnSpacecraftArrivingAtCeres-ArtistConcept-20150302.jpg

Yeah fair play. I do agree taking off from a planet with them is op but I also find burns with them at present to be lengthy. I usually let them burn and alt tab out of game when going interplanetary.

[Foxster]

...They're supposed to be for very small spacecraft, orbit-to-orbit only. Not landers. Never landers.

Say's who? Show me where the game specification lists that. And don't give me BS about 'realism'...these are little green men living on an alien planet in a universe with different physics to ours.

[r4pt0r]

Say's who? Show me where the game specification lists that. And don't give me BS about 'realism'...these are little green men living on an alien planet in a universe with different physics to ours.

Bruh.

normally Im on board with ya about different physics/different universe argument, but can you really try to defend atmospheric ion landers?

EDIT: lol that too RIC, good point.

Edited June 6, 2015 by r4pt0r

[Red Iron Crown]

Say's who? Show me where the game specification lists that. And don't give me BS about 'realism'...these are little green men living on an alien planet in a universe with different physics to ours.

Just for amusement, check out who you're replying to and then look in the .cfg for the ion engine and see who authored it. NovaSilisko is uniquely suited to say authoritatively what the engine was intended for.

[WOODY01]

Say's who? Show me where the game specification lists that. And don't give me BS about 'realism'...these are little green men living on an alien planet in a universe with different physics to ours.

The stats for the ions do that with no need to state it somewhere else. Low thrust, high vac ISP, low ISP in atmo simply means they are usually a good choice for low mass vehicles that need a lot of Delta-V. There is no specification saying that the MainSail is designed as a 1st stage engine but it stats most definatley define it's role.

[mythbusters844]

*sigh*

@PART[ionEngine]
	{
	@MODULE[ModuleEngines*]
	{
		@atmosphereCurve
		{
			!key,1 = delete
			!key,2 = DELETE
		}
	}
}

Install ModuleManager, copy this, paste into notepad, save in GameData directory as IonISP.cfg, watch your ion engines have pre-1.0 ISP curves, and stop begging Squad to change the game just for you. This is why games are moddable.

Edited June 6, 2015 by mythbusters844

[Mister Kerman]

Rip him apart boys.

[Superfluous J]

1.0 also "broke" physicsless parts. Your COSes all impart their mass onto the ship now instead of being magically massless.

I personally am okay with this. Better than. I'm happy with it.

[r4pt0r]

1.0 also "broke" physicsless parts. Your COSes all impart their mass onto the ship now instead of being magically massless.

I personally am okay with this. Better than. I'm happy with it.

seconded.

[Laie]

Well, there's a middle ground to be occupied between "realistic" and "ridiculous". Enough thrust that a small probe can perform orbital maneuvers in a reasonable timespan,

That's where we are right now. Don't know about you, but the Ion probes I come up with accelerate at 0.1-0.2g. At that rate, a straightforward 1000m/s transfer to Duna is still doable, but requires you to expend ~1300m/s. Any more than that and you have to resort to splitting maneuvers or other shenanigans. I posit that the engine can't be much weaker if you want it to remain playable.

That this little thrust still allows one to land on many bodies is unfortunate, but then again...

may be utterly unrealistic, it's nonetheless wonderful.

[tater]

The state of ion engines in general brings me great frustration. The thrust is far, far too high. They flat-out should not work in an atmosphere of any kind. They're supposed to be for very small spacecraft, orbit-to-orbit only. Not landers. Never landers.

Couldn't the atmospheric values be dropped to nil to prevent such exploits?

[Captain Sierra]

Couldn't the atmospheric values be dropped to nil to prevent such exploits?

This only really fixes the issue on Duna, one planet of many. They'll still be doable on Bop, Pol, Gilly, etc.

[tater]

True, but at least that kills any use in atmosphere. Given that they are forced to be grossly OP due to the inability to model constant thrust trajectories on rails, perhaps they could be given a spool up and spool down time, and not throttling. An ion thruster set could be added for attitude control, and fine orbit changes.

[Dedjal]

That this little thrust still allows one to land on many bodies is unfortunate, but then again...

may be utterly unrealistic, it's nonetheless wonderful.

This is offtopic, but I just have to say that, that video was amazing! I tend to build big, bigger, biggest. But that video was inspiring.

[Crzyrndm]

True, but at least that kills any use in atmosphere. Given that they are forced to be grossly OP due to the inability to model constant thrust trajectories on rails, perhaps they could be given a spool up and spool down time, and not throttling. An ion thruster set could be added for attitude control, and fine orbit changes.

This should kill any atmospheric use completely (when I say completely, even the very upper reaches of the atmo are going to be horrendous), and gives it a small throttle delay time

@PART[ionEngine]
{
    @MODULE[ModuleEngines]
    {
        %useEngineResponseTime = True
        %engineAccelerationSpeed = 0.1
        %engineDecelerationSpeed = 0.1
        -atmosphereCurve {} // remove the old one for clarity
        atmosphereCurve
        {
            key = 0 4200 0 -1
            key = 0.001 0.001 0 0
        }
    }
}

[Caelib]

I don't remember which update it was, but the thrust from ion engines used to be more realistic, which made the engine almost worthless because I don't really want to stare at my screen for 45 minutes waiting for my burn to finish.

KSP is first and foremost a GAME. If a gameplay mechanic isn't fun, then it will probably be tweaked to be less realistic.

[tater]

I understand the rationale for grossly buffing the ion, but the undesirable consequence of them being used for anything other than deep space craft should then also be (even if arbitrary/unrealistic) addressed.