[Philosophy] Value

[Xannari Ferrows]

So I've been selling Alumunium ingots for a while now, with the price at 209 Tynes per Kilogram. That should convert to $1.74 USD.

I myself have used a few for building small trinkets every now and then, but along the road, I decided to build a makeshift Arc furnace that could melt gold. Since I had some, I decided to use carbon rods from 2 large batteries as electrodes. It worked well, and now my supply is gone. I sold the resulting gold ingots for only 60 Tynes per Kilogram, but after the fact, I decided to look up how they typically sell. Yeah...

Apparently, I could have sold them for 1165870 Tynes per Kilogram on average, but that makes no sense to me, even now. Gold is not strong, therefore not useful for building. It is not common, but rare, so there is no use in even trying to find enough of it to build anything.

Even if you aren't looking to build something, it is still next to useless. It is difficult to atomically react with, for example.

So, why is it valued so high?

For that matter, why is anything valued high? Or at all, ultimately? Why invest so much money into something that you can't do anything with? It is dense, static, soft, and just uninteresting. I value even plastic higher than gold. At least it will keep my sandwich from the harmful atmosphere.

How is value defined? Why are abundant, versatile, light, and durable objects valued so low? I have a supply of the perfect example of this: Biosteel.

Unbelievably strong, lightweight, flexible, and thermal tolerant. It is the perfect material for my organic electrodynamic fluid compound [a fancy way of saying my home power generator].

But the question is; why was it practically dirt cheap? Why are other metals, heavier, softer, less malleable, and more static valued more than ones that are useful?

Now I ask you: How do you define value? What do you see in things that make them worth something to you?

[SargeRho]

Value is based on how rare something is compared to the demand for it. We like shiny things, but gold isn't exactly the most common element, and it doesn't tarnish, that's why it's expensive. There are ways to "abuse" that however. A prime example are Diamonds. Diamonds are not at all rare, their rarity is artificially created.

Value is also based on how hard something is to create. Titanium is so common that we used it as white pigment to paint walls with in the form of Titanium Dioxide. But it's very hard to machine, requiring special tools. It's also very hard to actually produce in its elemental form, which makes it expensive as well.

Edited June 7, 2015 by SargeRho

[vger]

Don't knock the value of gold too much. It's used in a lot of electronics and doesn't just exist as a "pretty thing." It's not as important as silicon, but there's enough of it in computers that some folks have been known to melt down broken machines to extract and resell it.

But yeah, generally, rarity has the most influence on price. "Durability" and "how it is utilized" both impact rarity, because the more it is needed, the more rare it is likely to be. There are exceptions to this, such as water. It's in high demand since we all need it, but our planet has a bajillion tons of it. Even so, the threat of a global water shortage isn't outside the realm of possibility. Expect the price of water to skyrocket when that happens.

Edited June 7, 2015 by vger

[Xannari Ferrows]

Don't knock the value of gold too much. It's used in a lot of electronics and doesn't just exist as a "pretty thing." It's not as important as silicon, but there's enough of it in computers that some folks have been known to melt down broken machines to extract and resell it.

There is? I've never used nor seen gold in any electronics before. That's not to say it's because I built them myself, but no one I know either. Is that actually true?

EDIT: It is! ...Well, not a lot, but enough to nab a few hundred Tynes.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Xannari Ferrows

[vger]

http://www.instructables.com/id/Gold-recovery/

[SargeRho]

Yes, Gold is often used to plate contacts in computers. For example, for RAM modules and graphics cards, also for the pins of CPUs and CPU Sockets.

[mardlamock]

You guys need some Subjective theory of value here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective_theory_of_value.

[Kryten]

The value of an item is what somebody is willing to pay for it, simple as that. Rarity and utility factor into that somewhat, but demand can come from completely abstract (and potentially bs) factors like 'intrinsic value' or 'collectibility'. I've done some work in the antique toys business, and I've encountered plenty of items that are in good condition, have good build quality, are quite rare and are literally worthless because nobody collects them. If we get stuff like that in an auction lot, it either goes to a charity shop or is left at a car boot sale with a sign saying 'take me'.

[Xannari Ferrows]

I never really purchase anything cosmetic, but when I do get anything decorative, I don't buy it. I don't pay someone for the item, but for the work they put into making it, and I say it's worth more if they made it in full spirit.

[Nuke]

There is? I've never used nor seen gold in any electronics before. That's not to say it's because I built them myself, but no one I know either. Is that actually true?

EDIT: It is! ...Well, not a lot, but enough to nab a few hundred Tynes.

i think the thing they recover is actually silver. most of the actual gold is really just a thin plating on contacts to keep them from corroding. but some solders have as much as 15% silver by weight. there is also copper as well which is probibly also valuable and is most of the weight. the good news is all the heavy stuff is the valuable stuff. you could mechanically shred the boards, stick the shreds into a vacuum furnace (microwave heating) and accumulate the metals in a mold at the base, extract the ingots and sent them to a metal refinery to separate the valuable metals. the bad news is you can do the same thing with an old oil drum and some coal and a 3rd world workforce.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Nuke

[LordFerret]

What manner of currency are 'Tynes'?

[Shpaget]

Most definitely usability.

One of my pet peeves is a pen that doesn't work properly, or needs substantial effort to make it start writing. I am willing to spend 5 or 10 times more than regular pens cost on a pen I know works from the moment you take it in your hand.

Those promo pens that companies give away are usually unusable for my taste.

That being said, another example was a wooden box I made recently. After assuring its usability I tried to make it as pretty as possible. However, prettification shall not interfere with functionality.

I don't wear jewelry and don't want stuff just because they are rare.

As an exception to this little rule of mine and one of the items I do very much wish I had is the mechanical calculator Curta. It is quite expensive, due to relative rarity, and is absolutely beautiful machine. In these modern times where you can buy a more powerful digital calculator for less than a McDonalds meal, spending $1000+ seems rather stupid, but I am fascinated by the mechanical engineering of the little thing. I most definitely do not need that calculator and the value I put on it is very low compared to price.

Contrasting this low value / high price situation is the oscilloscope I bought which I consider to be high value / (relatively) low price (the low price must be the result of the oscilloscope not looking nearly as beautiful as the Curta:sticktongue:).

[dharak1]

Wait you sold a kilo of gold for 50 cents?

[Xannari Ferrows]

Wait you sold a kilo of gold for 50 cents?

If that's what you call it, I guess I did. It's not worth much to me, and now my supply is gone. This MacGuyver style Arc furnace really does the trick.

- - - Updated - - -

As an exception to this little rule of mine and one of the items I do very much wish I had is the mechanical calculator Curta. It is quite expensive, due to relative rarity, and is absolutely beautiful machine. In these modern times where you can buy a more powerful digital calculator for less than a McDonalds meal, spending $1000+ seems rather stupid, but I am fascinated by the mechanical engineering of the little thing.

The technologies are not as strong, but engineered with far more sophistication for their time than they are now. I hear ya.

I remember seeing an analogue console at an old Battleship once. I believe it was the USS North Carolina, I can't remember. That thing was absolutely beautiful... I still want one, but I have nowhere near the Tynes to purchase it.

[Nibb31]

What is a Tyne ?

[Xannari Ferrows]

What is a Tyne ?

It's an arbitrary label I use for something that has value. It is represented as a token, the smallest being 1.2 Tynes, and the largest being 5290. Sometimes I use coins from what I receive as payment to make them.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Xannari Ferrows

[randomness5555]

For value, technically the most valuable things are probably food, water, heat, light and good company. After all, gold is no use when you're dying of de-hydration in a desert somewhere. But they're so easy to obtain nowadays that they've lost the value they hold in other poorer countries, and more complex things that at first don't seem inherently valuable become more so because people want different things.

Edited June 8, 2015 by randomness5555

[Lukaszenko]

As has been mentioned, it all comes down to how much somebody will pay for it. That's what it's worth. YOU might not care about gold, I don't much either, but many people do. Maybe it's for stupid reasons or maybe it's not, but it doesn't change the fact that enough people want it and are willing to pay for it, and there's not much of it. And that's why it's expensive. Again, the reasons WHY they want it are beside the point. People like the bling. People like rarity. People like status symbols. Marketing takes advantage of these and more to further add value.

Don't underestimate the value people place on looking good (or rich). Again, you might not give two ....s, but with 7 billion people, somebody does. And if that somebody has money, well, sometimes all it takes is one.

[YNM]

Value is arbitrary. Think of land spaces: they mostly costs you for maintenance yet they sold very high. An equal area for a patch of land in the middle of a city and in the outskirt will be valued differently - while in fact, physically, they're both the same.

Safe to say, value isn't just what seen, value is also about what you can do with it, and how many needs it. A patch of land in the middle of a city would have many buyers ; if we built something on it it's mostly more profitable and attractive (houses, apartments, flats, shops). While a larger land outside might costs the same to buy, but there's not much need for it.

Value is arbitrary and depends on the people - if you need it, value it higher than anybody else.

[RainDreamer]

Relevant video:

[Xannari Ferrows]

Value is arbitrary and depends on the people - if you need it, value it higher than anybody else.

If it is needed, it does not cost anything. Every basic biological need can be obtained for free, if just with hard work. I also despise those that increase the value of anything in high demand, to make a note of.

[YNM]

Value is arbitrary and depends on the people - if you need it, value it higher than anybody else.

If it is needed, it does not cost anything. Every basic biological need can be obtained for free, if just with hard work. I also despise those that increase the value of anything in high demand, to make a note of.

Yeah ! That's the point. Hard work. If you need more, work harder. Work is cost, you know (makes you tired for one, many others). In the past, it was direct. Today, it's indirect by the presence of a currency.

And raised values in high demand - why do you blame the seller ? People still buys them, that means they value it as much as the seller values it. Next time, just stop buying things when prices rise, they'll fall off due to lack of sales. Problem solved.

[Xannari Ferrows]

And raised values in high demand - why do you blame the seller ? People still buys them, that means they value it as much as the seller values it. Next time, just stop buying things when prices rise, they'll fall off due to lack of sales. Problem solved.

It is an exploit. Increasing the price of something by the same amount, in small increments at a time, makes it so that it goes up in smaller and smaller fractions each time, making people believe that it is only a small increase, and still worth the buy. It's just another way to pull money from people because of greed.

[RainDreamer]

And raised values in high demand - why do you blame the seller ? People still buys them, that means they value it as much as the seller values it. Next time, just stop buying things when prices rise, they'll fall off due to lack of sales. Problem solved.

Another relevant video:

[78stonewobble]

All of the options and more... o.O

Which presumably explains supply and demant pretty well.