Saitek Farming Simulator Side Panel... Does this look perfect for KSP?

[Mat2ch]

Good morning (it's early here. "eaaarly"),

well, since I'm working for a company that makes flight simulator parts I really thought about creating a dedicated controller for KSP (in my spare time, otherwise nobody could or would pay for that). But, as you might guess, it's still not easy to create something like the Farming Side Panel for a reasonable price, except you know your target group very well. I thought about a kickstarter campaign and open hardware style. This way it would be possible to see how many would like to have such a controller. But I don't know if there is a market here. If I do some price calculations most of you will say: KSP plays pretty well with the keyboard! And yes it does! Squad has done a very good job here! Anyway, it'd be nice to have a KSP Side Panel, but it will be too expensive to make... (except there are 500-1000 orders. But I doubt that. And I'm really wondering how many orders Saitek will get).

I just found out that the Farming Sim Side Panel costs 299 USD. Pretty much...

Edited June 13, 2015 by Mat2ch

[Johno]

I think I'm glad some people like farming. Some of them are actually real life farmers, and because of them the rest of us get to eat. Top job, folks.

[wossname]

3dConnexion make some nice hardware. I bought a SpaceNavigator and it works brilliantly in KSP for EVA, RCS maneuvers, docking and flying planes in an atmosphere. The RCS and EVA thrusters work proportionally with the amount of pressure you apply to the controller. This makes it possible to glide around smoothly like a pro! You can even hover a few feet over the Mun without hammering keys. Very cool.

The top level units have many configurable buttons but I have the simple mushroom type controller. The hardware build quality is top-notch and you can always use it for CAD design work (sketchup or solidworks). I'm trying to get work to buy me one for solidworks.

Edited June 13, 2015 by wossname

[Mat2ch]

Is it just me who finds it very unrealistic to have "throttle control" on RCS?

And the 3dConnexion stuff is not cheap either For 300 EUR I'd build my own controller for KSP.

[Wolf Baginski]

I hadn't thought of it like that, you I think you may be right. I know too much about real farming to be interested, but farm-by-wire is a feature of modern tractors.

Flight Simulator, you could use real-world aviation resources. Train Simulator and the like don't need steering, but managing a steam locomotive is a lot like managing the delta-V.

They're all a bit simplified.

I'd want to see somebody else telling us what the controller is really like before I spend money. I had mechanical linkages between control lever and hydraulic valves and that's a totally different feel. When I last bought a joystick it was still all analogue. But it does look plausible as a general purpose controller.

My ancient Thrustmaster hardware was programmable, and it's a plausible project to convert it to USB with something such as an Arduino board. It was expensive, and very well-constructed. Even then there were cheaper alternatives which maybe didn't have the reliability.

You know the sort of hardware they use with game consoles. It's USB and can be plugged into ordinary computers. There can be drivers. The older Playstation/XBox styles of controller are almost a standard

Jebediah, no!!!!

[Red Iron Crown]

Is it just me who finds it very unrealistic to have "throttle control" on RCS?

No more so than throttleable rockets at all. Possibly less so, it's not uncommon for spacecraft to have multiple ports in each direction, by activating different numbers of them different amounts of thrust can be delivered.

And the 3dConnexion stuff is not cheap either For 300 EUR I'd build my own controller for KSP.

It pays to shop around. The SpaceNavigator (possibly the best name for a KSP controller ever) has an MSRP of about $120 where I live, I found a new-in-box one on ebay for less than $60 shipped.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Red Iron Crown
Fixed subtle typo.

[Mat2ch]

The SpaceNavigator is around 100 EUR, but I was talking (but not saying, my fault) about the SpaceMouse, which has additional keys and everything. Something like this for KSP would be really great. But still, hard to make around 150 EUR.

[lajoswinkler]

I dont understand the appeal of these "sim games" that are popping up. Flight sims I get. Racing sims I get. I even get the humor for the surgery sim game, it is fun.

But farming sim, trucking sim, train sim(and its dlc, that you can purchase all of for only $2500, and thats the 50% off price today) I just dont understand.

Me too. I think it's a fad. Weird things just happen.

[comham]

Niche sims have always been around, but I guess the recent increase in graphical quality helped them get into the mainstream. It's not a fad, it's just a new genre, like walking simulators.

[wossname]

Is it just me who finds it very unrealistic to have "throttle control" on RCS?

As unrealistic as controlling a space ship with a keyboard and mouse?

And the 3dConnexion stuff is not cheap either For 300 EUR I'd build my own controller for KSP.

I'm inclined to agree. I bought the simplest model for 100 Euros as a good compromise.

[Freshmeat]

But the Space Navigator does not look very Kerbal, though.

[Mat2ch]

But the Space Navigator does not look very Kerbal, though.

Yeah, no kabels sticking out, no sharp edges... how am I supposed to work this way?

[magnemoe]

Is it just me who finds it very unrealistic to have "throttle control" on RCS?

And the 3dConnexion stuff is not cheap either For 300 EUR I'd build my own controller for KSP.

No its realistic, real world rcs is pulsed for fine adjustments. For small rcs probes and kerbals on eva it would be very nice to throttle it down.

[Luckless]

Is it just me who finds it very unrealistic to have "throttle control" on RCS?

Micro jets and pulse width modulation. You can 'throttle' something like RCS rather easily by including multiple (and thereby redundant) outlets on the same vector which can be toggled individually, and then you can turn some/all of them on and off for different durations to effectively control the level of thrust from a given point.

As for more on topic content, personally I would be very interested in building custom controllers if I had more time and space. No idea how well the Saitek controller really is or how useful it would be.

To me a big thing I would want in my control panels would be safety controls. Most push buttons shouldn't be a simple push button, but also include an inline switch and state indicators. Staging would probably get rigged with a self-resetting inline toggle switch. Flip the switch to arm the staging, press the button to fire the staging, and then the switch gets flipped back to the safe mode automatically. And of course it would have a big safety cover over the whole section with the switch and button.

An even cooler option would be if it could include in game feed back so you could control stage section modes. So launch section modes might have stages 1, 2, and 3. By that point you would be in orbit, and wouldn't want to fire off your next stage any time soon, so the stage button should become inactive until you've manually advanced to the next section mode so you can ditch your transfer burn stages, and then advance again before you can fire off your parachutes or whatever.

On the topic of general simulators: I enjoy Euro Truck Sim 2. It is relaxing to fire it up and just move cargo around. Personally I think it really needs far more work put into the business modelling side as currently it is a rather shallow game play section that is really just a mindless grind. I would be all over a good trucking simulator if it included great physics and a strong Tycoon influence.

And yes, I find it very boring if you play it with excessive arcade mode kind of thing. Managing a large trailer in tight spaces and trying to get it parked properly and quickly? That's just a fun little puzzle.

[regex]

Got my stuff today. Gonna play with this one for a bit before I decide to buy the second and dig in:

[Shpaget]

Nice.

Can you comment on the joystick? Is that 2 or 3 axis (twist)? How does it feel?

Can you test the precision? Do the values of the pots move smoothly with the deflection or do they jump around?

[regex]

Nice.

Can you comment on the joystick? Is that 2 or 3 axis? How does it feel?

Can you test the precision? Do the values of the pots move smoothly with the deflection or do they jump around?

I'll get to you on the precision tomorrow, but the 3-DOF joystick springs are nice and tight, feel really smooth. Hoping stringing up a test rig will be simple enough that I can try a launch tomorrow.

[richfiles]

Got my stuff today. Gonna play with this one for a bit before I decide to buy the second and dig in:

That looks nice and smexy!

Regex already asked all the questions I had though... How does that stick feel and so on. I don't need to ask all the same things again. It does look nice though!

The uniqueness of a custom rig is the only thing that really has me holding back on biting with the Saitek purchase. I've already posted pics of some of the hardware I've got. I am very tempted to still get the saitek, but to basically gut it for it's HID compliant internals and stick, and mount it all in a custom panel. For me, since I actually play BOTH Farming Simulator and KSP, it almost makes more sense to drive my tractor with a Saitek built Command Module!

[regex]

That joystick I bought is pretty nice. Resolution seems good although the Arduino may need to be smoothed (either that or our test program was a bit twitchy). I got the plugin working and an SAS indicator light as well but I'm not receiving any analog or digital inputs from the board in the game so I'm going to have to track that down. Once that's done I'll transition to my own thread or blogs for this thing. Anyway...

[Shpaget]

Thanks for the feedback. Good luck.

[richfiles]

I'll be honest... I've been planing a custom kerbal controller for a LONG time now, and have been collecting parts/learning Arduino. I guess pointing out the potential with the Farmnig Simulator side panel's potential use in KSP is for those who are not hardware savvy... Not everyone wants to spend a fortune on a custom command module controller that can only be used for Kerbal Space Program. I have plans for a massive custom controller, built into my desk. I made the desk in 2001, when I had 3 CRTs. Now I have 3 LCDs, and a LOT of empty space. This is what I'm aiming for...

If I can build a sturdy pivot, I might lower the control surface to keyboard level, and rig a swing out keyboard tray (instead of a slide out tray). It would attach to the right side of the controller to secure and stabilize it, and rotate to the left side of the controller. The mouse tray would still slide out. I am also considering a pair of "notches" on either side of the controller to serve as a place to hold a tablet or two, etc. As far as the desk goes, I only have to cut out the notch. to make room for the controller.

I doubt I'll actually buy the Saitek Farming Simulator side panel, but only because I already have so much invested in a custom Kerbal controller already... I would like to integrate a selectable mode option though, HID+keyboard emulation or kerbal specific control mode. I have QUITE a few other "toys" saved up for the day I figure out how to coding on an Arduino... Yeah, I've always been a hardware guy... I haven't programmed since I used BASIC on my Commodore 64 and my TI-86. I'm learning Arduino and C now.

Anyway, I have some pics earlier in this thread, so no need to repost... They were on Page 5, I think. Besides those pics, there is also these:

My 4 inch (10 cm) Vertical Velocity indicator (aka, the "Am I gunna die" meter). Note, that I'll make a custom faceplate for it, and indeed, for ALL my meters.

My 6 inch (15 cm) edgewise meters, along with my 10 inch (25 cm) VFD screens, and my Abort and Stage buttons. Note the nice color insert in the staging button, vs the cruddy old temporary insert from the pic on page 5.

Finally, there is my FDAI... aka, the navball!

This type of FDAI uses a 115 volt 400 Hz signal, driven through synchro control transformers (rotated by the gyro assembly). There are 9 synchro signal lines (3 per synchro) as well as the base inverter reference signal going into it. My FDAI has not yet arrived as of this writing (ARU-11A, from an Israeli F-4 Phantom simulator)... Mil spec site says 3 axis, specifically "Three axes attitude indicator used to provide continuous pitch, roll and azimuth information". Funny, I used to BUILD synchros for both the US DoD and some weather tracking equipment suppliers at my old job! IF ONLY I STILL HAD SOME SYNCHROS!!!

Unit displays: PITCH OF ACFT; BANK OF ACFT; GLIDE SLOPE; BANK STEERING; PITCH STEERING; RATE OF TURN; INCLINOMETER

Elsewhere, I found the pinouts: "The heading, pitch and roll can be moved using synchros. Pin connections are: A=Ground, B=115 V- 400 Hz, F=Heading-x, G=Heading-y, H=Heading-z, J=Glide-slope-flag+, K=Glide-slope-flag-, P=rate-gyroscope-power-warning-flag+, R= rate-gyroscope-power-warning-flag-, S=glideslope-pointer+ , T=glideslope-pointer-, U=vert-ptr-flag+, V=vert-ptr-flag-, W=horiz-ptr-, X=horiz-ptr+, Y=vert-ptr-, Z=vert-prt+, a=pitch-x, b=pitch-y, c=pitch-z, d=roll-x, e=roll-y, f=roll-z, g=lighting (5 V), h=lighting (GND), C,D,E,L,M,N and j not used.

You could do this two ways... You could use an arduino with 10 analog outputs (smoothed PWM) and processing to simulate the 10 phase shifted 400 Hz sine waves needed (one reference, and 9 synchro signals), and feed those into an amplifier that can drive the 115 volt outputs at that frequency...

The other way is to buy three synchros, and pair them to some stepper or continuous rotation servo motors, and drive the motors using a more traditional motor control program to represent the three axes. Then all you need is a single 115 volt, 400 Hz inverter to supply the FDAI and synchro control transformers.

Simple! Right!

As cool as all this is... Not everyone has the skill or time to do something as ambitious as this. I still stand by the assessment that the Farming Simulator side panel looks like an ideal kerbal space program controller. Pair it to another 3 axis primary stick, and you have all the controls you ever needed to lithobrake on Eeloo.

Edited June 30, 2015 by richfiles

[merendel]

This looks actually pretty cool. Ridiculous price for a large piece of plastic tho.

Well, they now belong to madcatz, so i'd be careful. Used to make some of the best low/mid priced adjustable joysticks i've ever seen, and now i'm already ....ed by being left-handed.

Judgeing by the "Updated" drivers and profile software to my old saitek joystick and gamepad the crap drivers still holds true. The rebranded madcatz profiler wont even detect the darn things dispite being downloaded specifically for that controller model for my OS from their site. Had to resort to useing steam bigpicture to reconfigure the buttons. so if the old fact of madcatz producing cheep knockoffs is mixed with that they got the worst of both worlds.

That said that is a prety neat layout if nothing else. I'd probably try to make my own though instead of paying that much for it though, looks rather cheeply built.

[Tandoori]

Now that's it's been out for a while, has anyone tried playing the game yet with this? I'm considering picking one up and mounting it above my monitors, so that the tranlsation stick is positioned vertically under my monitor, with the buttons and switches angled upwards, as one would find in a cockpit. Also used in conjunction with a HOTAS, assuming there are no conflicts.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Tandoori

[godefroi]

On 6/11/2015 at 3:59 PM, regex said:

Shpaget said:

Using an Arduino and existing code available, combined with a KSP mod that outputs game data, you can make yourself a custom controller with a display showing whatever data you may like.

Depending on the joystick you pick you can make your own control panel for roughly half the price of that Saitek controller.

Some programming and soldering required.

Because of this thread I priced out initial components for a dual 3-axis joystick Arduino Uno-run box; I'm looking at some $80 for the hardware, no enclosure, and I haven't even started shopping around. Realistically, I think I can create a custom controller board for under $100 (USB, dual joystick, up to 14 switches), and I think others have done similar already. The best part is that I can get started for under $50 with one joystick plus the board and a few switches and go from there.

If you're interested in building a custom controller, then you might want to look into the range of NETMF devices by GHI. You write code for them in C#/VB.NET using Visual Studio, just like you would a KSP addon.

[regex]

4 minutes ago, godefroi said:

If you're interested in building a custom controller, then you might want to look into the range of NETMF devices by GHI. You write code for them in C#/VB.NET using Visual Studio, just like you would a KSP addon.

No, I program for a living, I want to do as little of that as possible outside my job to avoid imminent burnout.  Arduino is pretty simple and the examples are easy to modify.

One of the reasons I was stymied on my controller earlier this year was because the existing KSP plugin didn't support inputs from the Arduino on Linux (at the time, haven't checked lately).