An idea for the Kerbal end game

[RocketBlam]

I've played through the tech tree at least four times now, three in beta and one in 1.02. So I've got a pretty good feel for the game. Of course I love the game, I wouldn't have put this much time into it if I didn't. I've achieved pretty much every feat that is supposed to be possible - I haven't ever "landed" on Jool, but I've done pretty much everything else, including returning a Kerbal from the surface of Eve, and hauling a Class C asteroid into an orbit around Bop.

So here is my observation: the game loses focus at the end. After you finish the tech tree, there is really no incentive to do anything else. I mean, since KSP is a sandbox game, you can always continue, but every time I get to the end of the tech tree, I lose interest because there's nothing left to "earn." This kind of sucks, because when you get access to all the cool stuff, you should really want to put it all to use.

Of course there are some (maybe even most) who don't have this problem, but I've noticed it with me.

So my suggestion is that there should be kind of a final "Grand Campaign." This should be a series of missions that only true Steely-Eyed Missile Men will be able to achieve. Some ideas for this, just off the top of my head:

1. Return a material sample from Eve. This will of course require landing a Kerbal on the surface.

2. Return a material sample from Tylo. Landing on Tylo was the second hardest mission I ever did. The combination of Delta-V and TWR was really hard to pull off.

3. Build a fully reuseable space plane that can ferry four Kerbals to an orbit of the Mun and return them.

These are just ideas. The point is, when you finish the tech tree, there should be some incentive to do something grand, rather than just "oh, I guess I'll go land on Tylo... not sure why, but... meh..."

Does this sound like a good idea? And what kinds of missions would you suggest?

Edited June 19, 2015 by RocketBlam

[Vanamonde]

This suggestion has been moved to Suggestions.

[tater]

Like it or not, people unconsciously play to reward systems. This has been well studied. The tech tree is THE reward system in KSP. Getting new missions doesn't help, as they have no reward.

[RocketBlam]

The reward could be a lot of reputation, and/or an achievement.

Currently the tech tree is the reward system, I agree. That's the problem. As I said, the fundamental problem is once you have all the tech, when you can finally make everything, the reward system goes away.

Edited June 19, 2015 by RocketBlam

[Tourist]

I know what you mean, once you've completed the tech tree, collecting science becomes completely unnecessary. On my last playthrough, I completed the tech tree before leaving Kerbins SOI! This meant I really had no need to send any science-y type equipment to on any of my trips to other planets... great for my weight and fuel needs of course, but not great for maintaining the challenge.

As a consequence my suggestion would be some kind of tech tree endstate.... , very much inspired by Scott Manley's Interstellar Quest series, have some kind of future tech that you need a lot of science to unlock, like a "warp drive". Essentially buying the tech just gets you a game over screen (although you can continue with the game). Maybe couple this with a building project the new tech would need to be built into.... ie have a ship with warp drive, room for X number of kerbals, power etc.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Tourist
horrible grammer and spelling.

[NFUN]

I feel like mods take care of this far more than stock ever could, and I even believe that the current late game is exactly where it should be. There can be no end, no game-over congratulations in order to hold some symbolism about neverending human endeavor or our eternal fascination with space, and the technologies last unlocked are satisfying enough for stock. It seems that the game just beckons for mods to be installed, with the player self-satisfied at completing the journey but unsure of what to do. At most, there should be a notification suggesting that the player gets mods upon the first exposure to the main menu screen after a file reaches tech completion.

[tater]

Many added mods are for parts. Parts are the reward in ksp (what you get for unlocking tech). I think there needs to be more stuff, frankly, though I have always thought that trading planetary science for rocket parts is absurd.

[basic.syntax]

Squad isn't done... by which some will re-raise that 1.0 wasn't a finished game, but ohwell.

They have more ideas about end-game activities, that we haven't seen yet. They don't even consider the latest big feature, resource mining, as "it."

I imagine some of Squad's unspoken ideas have been touched on by various suggestions and mods (NFUN advice sounds good: check out some mods or make your own,) this 2-year-old post/quote contains no hints about their other ideas.

that does not mean there isn't a need (and budding plans) for more end-game activities. I'm just saying that old plan for resource mining wasn't it.

[Tw1]

So here is my observation: the game loses focus at the end. After you finish the tech tree, there is really no incentive to do anything else. I mean, since KSP is a sandbox game, you can always continue, but every time I get to the end of the tech tree, I lose interest because there's nothing left to "earn."

Like it or not, people unconsciously play to reward systems. This has been well studied. The tech tree is THE reward system in KSP. Getting new missions doesn't help, as they have no reward.

Yes. As I, and a few others have long been saying, these two points are why the career mode design is fundamentally flawed.

Career mode's main features are things that will come to an end. Contracts keep going, but a lot of them feel like busywork, just there to let you earn the funds you need to do other things.

A much better approach would have been to make gameplay more about sustaining, than completion. Yes, you'd earn stuff and make new discoveries, but the main career mode challenge would come from management. Can I afford to keep restocking my research station? Do I need to hire more crew? What park of the solar system has not been investigated recently?

Feedback would be telling you "you're doing well in this area", rather than "You've done that bit! Good!", encouraging you to continually refine and improve.

In addition to that, a lot more could be done to make it feel like you're actually exploring space. Visual enhancements would be one thing, but there actually being interesting things to do while on a planet's surface would add a whole other layer to gameplay. A great experience could be its own reward. At the moment, KSP shoots itself in the foot a little bit here, as it sets you up to want to get things ticked of fast, then move on to the next thing.

Some of my best KSP memories come from times when I've been taking it slow, absorbing the scenery, or investigating something for myself.

I've written more about alternate game set up ideas here, http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/entries/3444-An-aproach-to-Time-based-funding and here, if anyone's interested. http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/entries/1767-Science-is-pretty-shallow-Could-it-be-shaken-up-a-bit

With a bit of smarter planning, KSP wouldn't have left any need for any final missions, or anything like that.

You wouldn't run out of things to do- you'd do it until you'd had enough.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Tw1

[tater]

You should want to explore just to see new worlds. This would require a randomized Kerbol system, such that you never know what you might find.

[NFUN]

You should want to explore just to see new worlds. This would require a randomized Kerbol system, such that you never know what you might find.

The devs have come out strongly against that, saying that they want everybody's experience to be relatable. We get excited and happy for one another after a forumgoer posts their first Eve success, but how might we feel when someone animatedly talks about landing on Smeve, when everybody else has only returned from Sleeve or Steve? Even if it was only an option that advanced, jaded players picked, it would still be somewhat alienating.

[tater]

It would have to have a default seed, then once you have discovered THAT, then you move to new systems.

[Tw1]

The devs have come out strongly against that, saying that they want everybody's experience to be relatable.

I personally agree with this approach. Planets, even KSP's shrunken ones, have a lot of room on them. If they could be made more interesting, then each planet would have a lot of things worth visiting on its own.

[Daveroski]

I have seen people give up because they can't get a ship into orbit or land a craft on the mun or build a spaceplane that they can fly into space or even land on the runway.

I don't need to use MJ but I wouldn't dream of spoiling the fun of those who do.

I can set my own limits in a game. I don't need them hard coded into the software.

Sometimes I will use the challenge of difficulty settings in the setup but if they weren't there I'd sew up my own pockets.

I can't imagine myself being so selfish that I would ruin the game for anyone just because they were using a play aid yet there seems to be so many people who play who feel justified in limiting the fun of others because they are not able to set their own limits. Very sad.

[Daveroski]

Whoa, man! That escalated quickly...

Not trying to limit anyone, so perhaps a "Verified" or "Clean" mode that doesn't allow easy-mode mods, and can be used for achievements/tracking excellence among those who enjoy a challenge?

A computer generated report certifies honour? Remarkable!

Yes, I'm aware that the entire community would immediately lose their minds over it, but it would be MUCH better for the game.

And that's how I know you are fishing and why I bit for you.

But seriously, the only way that anyone can get verification on how wonderful they are at KSP is if impartial witnesses see it. Get it streamed, let anyone see any screen data they ask to see. Those who watch may well believe what they see.

Personally I always have doubts about those who need to prove themselves to others. It may be a flaw in my character but I'll live with it.

If it's someone I care about and they are disappointed in me for some reason, well, I will move mountains, crawl on red hot embers etc.

But a stranger trying to prove they are better at something than strangers?

Normally, I don't care enough to reply more than once to the post of someone with a viewpoint which clashes with my own.

Maybe I found your viewpoint interesting enough that I felt the need to respond again.

Or maybe I'm just messing with you... so don't quote me

[tater]

End game requires a reward system that goes past Kerbin SoI (I'm usually done or nearly done with the tech tree by the time the first lowest energy window to Duna pops up).

To have an "end game," the dev need to decide what the point actually is for career. That's step one. Honestly, if that was done, it would change everything about career, because then they would have designed it with a goal in mind.

If the goal had been exploration, there would be a kind of 'fog of war" where you learn things about the kerbol system by exploring it. Mapping might become more important (more like scansat). The point is step one, rather than tacking on an "end game" to a career that is poorly thought out.