Why the hate towards x64?

[JeeF]

I've been using the workaround to get the 1.0.3 (and since 1.0) running in 64 bits. Only reason behind this is performance, ability to use more mods.

Currently I run the game with 108 mods installed, RSS with 8k textures, textures full rez in the options, a special version of EVE + AVP.

Game takes between 12-16gb of ram depending on what I'm doing, but at least 8gb just loading to the menu.

I normally don't close the game, I just tab out and do other things, mainly cos it takes so long to load, over 40k patches from MM.

Rock-stable. Not a flinch.

Got two friends of mine hooked into the game, and after a few dozen hours playing the original, they wanted to get into using mods and I helped them get the x64 version running.

They've got no issues with it.

I've spoken to many members of the community and I'm still unable to find a single person that told me "Yeah, x64 is too unstable for me, can't get it to work." All I hear is praising.

I'm not trying to start a war here, and I know some people (specially modders) are very sensitive to the subject, to the point where I'm sure some of you reading this already have your blood boiling over, even just the title of this thread.

But in an amicable manner, being polite with each other here, could you guys please explain to me, and to a lot of other folks who I'm sure are wondering the same thing: why the hate?

I'd like to believe that all of us, users of x64 version, have the brains to know not to ask or demand support for the experimental version of the game.

Why can't mods be released without tools to stop it from working on x64 versions?

Why can't you guys just say in big bold red letters: please don't ask support for x64 versions?

Why the hate?

So many wonderful mods out there, it's really a shame to be limited to only a few of them. We all have plenty of ram, we all have 64 bit processors and it's damn time to start taking advantage over it.

You guys who criticize the use of x64 workarounds so much should try having a separate install of the x64 and playing it for your own sake, I'm sure you'd be surprised.

If everybody was playing it, if all mods were build without disabling themselves in x64, I'm sure the push for an "official" x64 version of the game would be greater and speed up the process from the devs.

So, again, without throwing the wrenches, express your opinion.

Thank you!

(p.s. Moderators, please let this run for a little while, I'm hoping people will be able to talk peacefully. Feel free to delete the thread if the community proves me wrong.)

[peachoftree]

My personal theory is that when x64 was widely available, everyone was trying to use it, even people with janky systems that really shouldn't. Now that it is a much more technical hack, the people running x64 are much more likely to have stable systems and know what they are doing. This is also where the support issues come in. If you don't have the proper know-how to have a sufficiently stable system, you are much more likely to run for help instead of solving the problem yourself.

I run linux myself, so I can't comment on the actual stability. This is just an idea I had on the spot.

[DuoDex]

The hate, as I view it, is from modders who got sick of x64 causing crashes and then being blamed. x64 for you may be stable, but when it came out modders were inundated with bug reports that were not their mods, just x64 instability, and they got sick of that.

Didn't help that a lot of the x64 crowd then (and maybe now, too) were whiny, arrogant, [insert rant here] users who refused to believe that they might be in the wrong.

[KAO]

are you using the 64-bit version for Linux? or Windows?

last time I used the 64 bit version was only when the hack was introduced, so I don't know if stability has improved or what. I would really like to try it out for use with the Realism Overhaul suite of mods, but it seems the crucial ones are disabled on 64 bit.

[*Aqua*]

> Rock-stable. Not a flinch.

Congratulation! You are one of the few player who don't have problems with KSP x64. But there are a lot more players (like I) who can't run that without a lot of problems.

> Why can't mods be released without tools to stop it from working on x64 versions?

Because modders don't want to run after bugs in the Unity Engine.

> Why can't you guys just say in big bold red letters: please don't ask support for x64 versions?

Because some users don't read that. For example in the FAR thread you still stumble upon players which try to use that mod in KSP x64 and complain that it doesn't work, not knowing that it disabled itself.

> Why the hate?

There's no hate. It just that the modders feel bugged by stuff they aren't responsible for.

[OddFunction]

I'll play devils advocate for a minute. (anti 64bit)

From this perspective 64bit is not stable no matter how many people claim to the contrary. In fact a closer analysis of the data shows that many people do in fact have issues with certain mods that never worked well in win64bit. For example, people trying to run FAR with the win64 bit hack and the workaround are running code that hasn't been updated in a long time... I read this from a Ferram post. Basically mod authors are not updating for win64bit and the success you have with it is probably because you don't know enough to see whats going wrong.

Secondly no matter how many warnings, disclaimers, and red-bold text messages say "DO NOT BUG MOD AUTHORS ABOUT PROBLEMS EXPERIENCED ON A WIN64 PLATFORM", they doubtlessly get pestered. Who knows how many times they spent minutes or hours on a problem before it occured to them that the bug-filer is running win64... which would explain everything. It's a waste of time trying to fix bugs on a platform you don't support. And pretty disrepectful to be honest.

These guys put time, effort and love into their mods... and all they ask, really, is that we don't give them worthless bug reports on win64bit. And while I realize the smartest of us would never bother them with something they aren't going to fix anyways, its not hard to imagine that many people do. To quote a mod author,

"You're making our lives harder, son."

tldr: if you use win64bit and never report problems with mods, you are fine. If you use win64bit and report problems with mods, you are inconsiderate on many levels.

Edited June 23, 2015 by OddFunction

[steve_v]

Jeez people, why the 64bit shenanigans again? Squad pulled the Win64 build from the store, what does this tell you about it's stability and debug-ability? Especially as there's no Win64 editor to actually test things in...

Mods started with a "do not report Win64 bugs" warning, and it was ignored by entitled brats demanding support... because it couldn't possibly be the 64bit player unity causing problems.

If you are clued up enough to hack together an unofficial 64bit build, you're also clever enough to remove the 64bit check from the mods you want to use - with the exception of one notable mod it's pretty easy to find.

TL/DR: There's no hate, all the mods work on all the officially supported KSP builds. If you want to head into territory even Squad won't support, you're on your own.

[Robotengineer]

*Ahem* You need to put 'Windows' in front of the x64. Stable x64 has been used by Linux users since time began. (Not really, but you get the point.) It's a Windows specific problem, so please specify it as such.

[Captain Sierra]

tldr: if you use win64bit and never report problems with mods, you are fine. If you use win64bit and report problems with mods, you are inconsiderate on many levels.

THats unnecessarily harsh, and a straight up lie.

I ran x64 for a while and reported dozens of mod bugs, but I'd verify it as the only mod on an otherwise-stock 32 bit install first, as anyone should when reporting a bug.

[Capt. Hunt]

*Ahem* You need to put 'Windows' in front of the x64. Stable x64 has been used by Linux users since time began. (Not really, but you get the point.) It's a Windows specific problem, so please specify it as such.

Well, if you want to be specific, it's an issue with Unity for Windows x64, not windows x64.

[Guest]

Why can't mods be released without tools to stop it from working on x64 versions?

Because no one reads OPs.

Why can't you guys just say in big bold red letters: please don't ask support for x64 versions?

Because no one reads OPs.

Why the hate?

Because no one reads OPs.

See, the problem is that a modder can never be sure whether the issue is with Win x64 or with their mod, and that Win x64 is great for some and terrible for others, meaning there is tons of inconsistency, and that people can't be bothered to write up a proper bug report for a modder, much less for the KSP devs, which just exacerbates the entire thing, and that no one reads the OP which contains the big red letters saying "NO SUPPORT FOR WIN x64 DONT ASK SCRUB" but instead just post blindly complaining about how things don't work.

[Nansuchao]

The KSP engine, Unity 4 is unstable at 64 bit in Windows. Squad decided to remove the 64 versions due to this problem. The forum was full of bug reports (mainly mods) that weren't bugs, just instability. That's all.

In the next months Squad will hopefully release a 64 bit version with the new Engine, Unity 5. At that point, everyone will be free to use it. For now, if you have issues with 64 bit hack, please do not report bugs in the modding section or in other sections too. 64 bit is not again supported.

[NathanKell]

There's also the fact that we tried the "don't lock, just ask people not to report bugs" throughout .24.

It didn't work. We still got craptons of reports and, worse, got publicly blamed for "crashing KSP" in many, many other threads, replete with "advice" as to how to "stop the crashing" (which usually involved something catastrophically bad, like deleting ModuleManager).

We did not choose the "lock" approach first or lightly.

[JeeF]

I see.

From my understanding, people are supposed to submit accurate bug reports following a pre-determined form.

Should this form start by first asking "What version are you running, x32 or x64 bits?", and when the answer is x64, you can just simply ignore it, or, if you wish, test out on your x64 spare installation and see if you can locate the issue, in case you do have the time or interest. If not, I'm assuming it just easy to ignore the post altogether.

For the people claiming "Your mod broke my game", those ignorant people are a plague spread everywhere online, there's no avoiding it, you'll get the eventual idiot saying those things to .... you off regardless of the version he's running.

I still believe the current "hate" towards the x64 is back from the time when x64 was indeed very badly unstable, which doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

Isn't it worth opening the door only slightly to please the large % of us running 64? I mean, a tiny teeny line of comment in your OP stating "By the way, if anybody is interested in testing the highly experimental 64 bit version, there's a separate folder in my github which can be downloaded here.", and like I mentioned above, ignore any bug report that doesn't follow the form to the letter, and ignore the 64 bit reports in case you don't have patience or are not interested by it.

Trying to squash it down altogether like a cockroach is just... anti-progressive. 64 is the future. I find really hard to believe you guys are not at least a bit curious to try the 64 and be able to play with hundreds of mods and max textures. Heck, the 64 would even allow us to work with 10x bigger textures for mods like RSS, making the planet Earth look awesome.

Edited June 23, 2015 by JeeF

[sumghai]

- For every KSP_win_64er who promises to not to bug plugin authors with bug reports, two or three more will do so anyway, and continue to blame the author after the fact.

- Anecdotal evidence of KSP_win_64 working, even if non-trivial, is still anecdotal and unofficial.

- SQUAD has officially acknowledged KSP_win_64 as unstable for 1.0.x and foreseeable future versions, and has gone as far as (rightfully) removing all official KSP_win_64 builds from user's Steam installs.

A complete moratorium on KSP_win_64, at least until SQUAD has officially published a stable release, means less headache for plugin authors for the low, low price of a few disappointed KSP_win_64ers.

[OddFunction]

THats unnecessarily harsh, and a straight up lie.

I ran x64 for a while and reported dozens of mod bugs, but I'd verify it as the only mod on an otherwise-stock 32 bit install first, as anyone should when reporting a bug.

It's not a lie and its not harsh. What is harsh and a lie is calling me a liar. So please, think before you post.

I was saying it is inconsiderate to report win64 bugs as a general rule. Obviously, OBVIOUSLY if you try it again on a 32bit system and confirm that the problem exists on both then there's no problem.

But for you to twist my post for the sole purpose of coming at me?

Petty.

[DuoDex]

Relevant link to the official position on x64 and mods.

[JeeF]

Like I said, 64 is the future.

This just saddens me. The decision to stay away from it to avoid stress from the community. I can understand and relate to it, I've been modding games for the past 10 years. But still, saddens me greatly.

For me this decision is just like Ferrari announcing that from now on they'll only manufacture front-wheel-drive cars due to the complaints from buyers about the car spinning out in turns when they slam the acc pedal to the metal while in second gear. Those who don't know how to drive spoil the life of everybody else.

[Guest]

Be patient for the Unity 5 release of KSP, recompile the mods yourself, or install Linux. Win x64 KSP is a steaming pile of dung that may or may not work and very few modders want near it.

[Red Iron Crown]

Like I said, 64 is the future.

This just saddens me. The decision to stay away from it to avoid stress from the community. I can understand and relate to it, I've been modding games for the past 10 years. But still, saddens me greatly.

For me this decision is just like Ferrari announcing that from now on they'll only manufacture front-wheel-drive cars due to the complaints from buyers about the car spinning out in turns when they slam the acc pedal to the metal while in second gear. Those who don't know how to drive spoil the life of everybody else.

There is some glimmer of hope. Unity 5 brings a lot of improvements, including better debugging tools for 64-bit Windows (which are essential for figuring out exactly what is causing troubles with Win64 KSP). So with the upcoming transition to U5 I'm hopeful some progress will be made with the Win64 version.

Another point is that modders aren't against the idea of a Win64 version; indeed, the ability to use more memory for more mods would relieve a lot of headaches and sources of crashes for modded installs. If a stable Win64 version emerged I think you might see support for Win32 versions start to evaporate (too many memory problems). It's just that the current Win64 isn't reliably stable for all or even most users, so sticking to Win32 is the lesser of two evils.

[gogozerg]

I've spoken to many members of the community and I'm still unable to find a single person that told me "Yeah, x64 is too unstable for me, can't get it to work." All I hear is praising.

Really?

Around 0.24.x I was playing Win x86_64 and I was having major issues even on unmodded installs, possibly Unity related (like having to click 15 times on a part to open a menu). Then I realized there was a 32 bits version around, and it changed my life.

I certainly was not the only one. But since 0.24.x things may have changed.

Edited June 24, 2015 by gogozerg

[Laie]

Like I said, 64 is the future.

I think almost everybody is aware of that. SQUAD certainly is. You've been around since May, have you completely ignored the devnotes?

[Tankman101]

Heck, the 64 would even allow us to work with 10x bigger textures for mods like RSS, making the planet Earth look awesome.

Not really, KSPs memory management means it would just fill up the rest of the RAM.

If we want amazing textures then we'll need a better system to load stuff onto memory

[JeeF]

Be patient for the Unity 5 release of KSP, recompile the mods yourself, or install Linux. Win x64 KSP is a steaming pile of dung that may or may not work and very few modders want near it.

Thank you, but you're missing the point. I'm already running win64 version with all the mods I could wish for. I don't need anything for MYSELF.

I'm rather fighting for an ideal, while trying to understand the community and modders in general, since I'm fairly new around here (been reading the forum and playing the game since 2 weeks prior the release of 1.0).

I think almost everybody is aware of that. SQUAD certainly is. You've been around since May, have you completely ignored the devnotes?

I've read it and I've read as much as I could about the subject, which seems to have died down, so I wanted a more "fresh" opinion on what's what, and maybe start a debate to open new doors.

Maybe I'm a dreamer... but I'm not the only one.

Not really, KSPs memory management means it would just fill up the rest of the RAM.

If we want amazing textures then we'll need a better system to load stuff onto memory

Indeed. But doesn't change the fact that we could do wonders with x64 and 32gb of ram XD

@Topic, Thank you all who shared their opinions, lots of good information. I'm happy we're keeping this civilized.

Edited June 24, 2015 by JeeF

[Guest]

I'm rather fighting for an ideal

That's nice and all, but the "ideal" is a Win x64 that's stable for everyone, not just a few special people, and that modders actually want to support, and there's no way you can have that now because Squad has pulled Win x64. Wait for the Unity 5 update, recompile yourself, install Linux, or suffer through your current install.