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What's With The Hate?

Lundmunchkins

By Lundmunchkins
in KSP1 Discussion

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Megan

Megan

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Posted

I agree that a channel that says right up front that you should pirate KSP because the devs don't deserve your money is an unreasonable channel. But they're honest (for some values of "honest"). And KSP doesn't magically become better when /kspg/ points out a flaw.

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regex

regex

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Posted

Why the hate? All the rapid changes. For an example, it's like, they ship the game with a certain feature and now it's gone, meanwhile parts have been added to accommodate the original feature. I'm still pretty happy with the game overall, though. For once in stock KSP I can fly an actual gravity turn during launch. Plus, all the new features are going to make Realism Overhaul that much better.

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Hary R

Hary R

Posted
Posted (edited)

Well my two cent here from one of the very inactive forum member (i only speak when i have something useful to say), I say that there were no hate in general (don't listen to the minority that always have to complain) more like a general "we warned you" after 1.0 came out.

Yes I've read a few comment like "Q & A don't do there job" style and that was not the way to go but I've also seen a lot of useful post in the bug support section that certainly helped fix bug. Sad to see that the I like to complain post is much more noticeable that the constructive post.

For the recent patch, Well a good real beta version would have fix that easily but well... better have a patch now for balancing then stick with 1.0.2 aero. didn't like it much.

I'd like to point out here also that blaming the dev team (harvester and co) for a decision they certainly have no or very little control over is not something we should do. They can't go against the management decision.

I'm sure it's not what you want to say but in some post it's like you blame the Dev team (and not the company) to have rushed the 1.0 version.

Sorry but it's easy to misread that.

See ya!

Edited by Hary R
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kiwi1960

kiwi1960

Posted
Posted (edited)
I'm sorry to hear that. And I already know there's nothing I can say or do to ease your mind. We are also not a bunch of monkey automatons bandying about on the forums. We are humans, and we aren't necessarily able to see all and hear all. Nor do we wish to "keep down" the forums. I can't swear that rules are always 100% enforced in a perfectly balanced manner in every circumstance, again because we are all human.

Also, perhaps in a more constructive manner, you could explain what the moderators have done to promote hate on the forums, because that certainly isn't what we want. Nearly all the hate I see on the forums is how people like or hate MechJeb, like or hate FAR, like or hate x64, like or hate what Squad decides to do with their own game, and so on. If you feel you are being unduly attacked by a moderator, we have a process of review.

We do, in fact, have moderators on the team that are about your age. I'm also sorry if that's a measuring factor of what's a "good moderator" for you. Not that age is a strict measure of who is "above" who, and who deserves being sucked up to, because none of the moderators should be getting sucked up to anyway.

Cheers,

~Claw

maybe you misunderstood... the monkey comment was saying that Squad are human, not monkeys. I was defendingn them and the game from the "haters" although that may well be too strong a word.

As for the moderators, maybe I over stated the problem, generally, if they leave my posts alone then I don't have a problem with them, so, I accept that most of the time, things are good, but only if they don;t stomp on my posts... normally, if I screw up, fair enough, but when others gets away with what i didn't... resentment creeps in.

FYI, I used to run a forum myself, and it was Vbulletin. I know that moderators are under appreciated, and hated... for doing a job people do not get... to create a place for EVERYONE to like, and to stop flame wars before they start. Having a forum go critical and suffer a meltdown is just what Moderators want to prevent, so yeah, I know all about that. But when I had my team of moderators, I told them to be fair but hard, not to allow one to get away with something another wasn't allowed to...

...but more importantly, I told them not to be over enthusiastic it interpreting the rules, to allow some leeway. Closing threads down for the silliest of reasons creates more problems than it cures. So, allow some leeway.

The first thread I posted on this forum, well, one of the first, was about "The Mun landing being a hoax".... that KSP faked it for the funding... I asked if anyone else could think of any... and they posted their theories about a face in the ocean... etc etc. That thread was closed down because conspiracy theories were against the rules. GIVE ME A BREAK ALREADY!!!! Kerbal Space Program is make believe... how can a make believe conspiracy theory be against the rules?

lately... I have seen people post a few REAL conspiracy type posts... about phone numbers on heat panels.... and nothing happened. Yep... I even tested the theory and stated in that thread that conspiracy theories were against the rules.... STILL NOTHING.

So, my attitude now is... some mods don't deserve to be mods, they do more harm than good... they act more like dictators than mods, people they know (and like?) get away with murder... and others do not.

So, it is very rarely now that I will start a thread... I did post about Valentina being on the Mun and the Tech at KSP turned the radio off so they could enjoy the silence... and YET AGAIN... the thread was locked because it was ... sexist.... REALLY? Didn't Squad have a backlash for being sexist and not having females? Seems to have been OK then for anyone to make sexist posts either for or against females...

...BUT.... (calming down now).... I, like a few others, will now not ever post a new thread because we know what will happen. I see the haters can post what they like, their threads are not locked... so, here I am in someone elses thread posting because I won't now ever start a new thread because I just KNOW what will happen.

The other mods are all fine.... but you know what... the bad mods make you good ones look bad too. That is just somethign you will have to live with.

Now, let me repeat.... Squad = GOOD! Game = GOOD! Forums = NOT as much fun as they should be... MODS = ..... most are good. Lets leave it at that.

Edited by kiwi1960
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Megan

Megan

Posted
Posted (edited)

Mods can't see everything. Blaming them for what they miss misses the point. If they're right when they tell you to knock it off, stuff your pride in your shoe, and just knock it off.

Don't say "but but but X said Y and you didn't tell HIM to stop!" Irrelevant. Are you in the right? Keep on doing what you're doing and get banned for it if it means that much to you. Are you in the wrong? Suck it up and knock it off even if someone else got away with it earlier.

Are you sincere? That's the only real question. If you are, you shouldn't care how someone else was treated. And if you're sincere, you also shouldn't care if you get banned. It's just a forum about a game.

Be nice, be as polite as you'd be to anyone else, because we're all made in the image of God. But stop predicating your actions on how someone else might act. Just do the right thing.

Yeah, I know, "just." The real four-letter word.

"If introspection reveals the self to be unjust, then no matter how base the opponent may be, will I not be afraid? If introspection reveals the self to be just, then I will go even though against a thousand or ten thousand men."

- Gichin Funakoshi

"God is a most generous host, but He demands payment in full. He does not allow you to default."

- Hans Frank

(edit: really? "N---" is censored? Come on.)

Edited by Megan
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John FX

John FX

Posted
Posted

Well back to the topic of the thread, being hate for the Devs not the moderators, IMHO going 1.0 so quickly was not the right thing to do if the intention was to reduce pressure. Myself I would suggest a protracted beta, allowing time for expectations to settle down through the process of first declaring the game feature complete then going through bug fixing and a comprehensive balancing of the features would make a lot of people start wondering why the game was not being released.

Then, at the point where threads wondering exactly that started appearing on the forum, release version 1.0...

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Kuu Lightwing

Kuu Lightwing

Posted
Posted
Well atleast I know there are still Bronies on the forums.

But seriously I don't like how negative the KSP community has become at all. It's just so, unpleasant.

I'm not exactly a brony, just an MLP fan. Maybe even an "ex" fan, although I still like some ponies.

But anyways, I think people on the internet are just like that - the exaggerate everything. Fairings separate in panels? The WORST THING EVER, game is RUINED! Meh. It's okay, don't be too sensitive about that.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, is it the Hate Monday?

kHHqtrp.png

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technicalfool

technicalfool

Posted
Posted (edited)

The first thread I posted on this forum, well, one of the first, was about "The Mun landing being a hoax".... that KSP faked it for the funding... I asked if anyone else could think of any... and they posted their theories about a face in the ocean... etc etc. That thread was closed down because conspiracy theories were against the rules. GIVE ME A BREAK ALREADY!!!! Kerbal Space Program is make believe... how can a make believe conspiracy theory be against the rules?

We've been through two CMs and a whole bunch of moderators since then. I guess it didn't help that you posted it in Forum Games rather than the Space Lounge. In any case, the moderation team has changed drastically since then, and with it, our approaches to moderation. What hasn't changed is the whole "discussing moderation actions in public" thing, so I'm not going to say any more on that particular thread.

lately... I have seen people post a few REAL conspiracy type posts... about phone numbers on heat panels.... and nothing happened. Yep... I even tested the theory and stated in that thread that conspiracy theories were against the rules.... STILL NOTHING.

Try using the report post button. Calling people out in-thread is even less likely to get the result you want, and is more likely to get your post deleted (and possibly theirs) because back-seat moderation is.. well.. against the rules. Mostly, I suppose, to prevent any rewarding of the kind of "sucking up to the moderators" behaviour that is so despised by so many (including some of the moderators).

So, my attitude now is... some mods don't deserve to be mods, they do more harm than good... they act more like dictators than mods, people they know (and like?) get away with murder... and others do not.

I'll say here that you aren't privy to what goes on behind the scenes. More than once, one of the "forum personalities" has decided to go on a bit of a bender and left one or more moderators tearing their hair out over it. Speaking personally, if a problem post with someone I know crops up, I'll declare "conflict of interest" and let the rest of the team handle it.

And again, this is discussing moderator actions in public, which is strictly-speaking against the rules.

So, it is very rarely now that I will start a thread... I did post about Valentina being on the Mun and the Tech at KSP turned the radio off so they could enjoy the silence... and YET AGAIN... the thread was locked because it was ... sexist.... REALLY? Didn't Squad have a backlash for being sexist and not having females? Seems to have been OK then for anyone to make sexist posts either for or against females...

I haven't seen that thread, but to be fair it does sound like it could be construed in very much the wrong way.

(edit: really? "N---" is censored? Come on.)

It's unfortunate, but as I recall, there was something of a rash of people comparing each other to a 1930s German political movement. Let's not go there, eh?

Edited by technicalfool
Space Lounge, REALLY not Science Lab
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John FX

John FX

Posted
Posted (edited)
I'm not exactly a brony, just an MLP fan. Maybe even an "ex" fan, although I still like some ponies.

But anyways, I think people on the internet are just like that - the exaggerate everything. Fairings separate in panels? The WORST THING EVER, game is RUINED! Meh. It's okay, don't be too sensitive about that.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, is it the Hate Monday?

http://i.imgur.com/kHHqtrp.png

Maybe it's a new thing alongside Dev note Tuesdays?

Not sure I like the new theme.

If I were to make a thread titled "what I hate about the forum", I would probably say in the OP that it's threads that have titles that start with "what I hate about..."

Edit : wow, this is a busy thread

Edited by John FX
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kiwi1960

kiwi1960

Posted
Posted (edited)
We've been through two CMs and a whole bunch of moderators since then. I guess it didn't help that you posted it in Forum Games rather than the Space Lounge. In any case, the moderation team has changed drastically since then, and with it, our approaches to moderation. What hasn't changed is the whole "discussing moderation actions in public" thing, so I'm not going to say any more on that particular thread.

Try using the report post button. Calling people out in-thread is even less likely to get the result you want, and is more likely to get your post deleted (and possibly theirs) because back-seat moderation is.. well.. against the rules. Mostly, I suppose, to prevent any rewarding of the kind of "sucking up to the moderators" behaviour that is so despised by so many (including some of the moderators).

I'll say here that you aren't privy to what goes on behind the scenes. More than once, one of the "forum personalities" has decided to go on a bit of a bender and left one or more moderators tearing their hair out over it. Speaking personally, if a problem post with someone I know crops up, I'll declare "conflict of interest" and let the rest of the team handle it.

And again, this is discussing moderator actions in public, which is strictly-speaking against the rules.

I haven't seen that thread, but to be fair it does sound like it could be construed in very much the wrong way.

It's unfortunate, but as I recall, there was something of a rash of people comparing each other to a 1930s German political movement. Let's not go there, eh?

The point was about my mini modding in that thread by suggesting it was against the rules was to see if any mod would put a stop to it, if I had reported it, then that would have been too easy, besides, the thread starter had a good point, it DID look like a phone number, and I wasn't about to get his thread closed on him on my account...

I'm glad the mod team has been revamped, but old habits are hard to die. Claiming my Valentina joke was sexist was a petty excuse, and now for you to claim that if could be construed in much the wrong way... seriously? ANY post can be misconstrued by anyone if they are willing to go that way. Look at the way THIS thread has ended up. That excuse seems to be your "get out of jail free' card to lock any thread for any excuse and then say that when you're questioned on it.

BUT... I'll take you at your word, I'll give you and the other mods the benefit of the doubt.

ANYHOW... getting back on topic, its seems from the posts I have read in this thread since my first post, that some of the haters expected version 1.0.0 to be perfect, that there would be NO bugs.... come of guys, either you're [CENSORED TO NOT VIOLATE THE RULES]... a version 1.0.0. only means its fit enough to be released that its a complete game.... it does NOT mean its perfect. NO game will ever be perfect... whether version 1.0.0 or version 9999.9999.9999.9999 .... for every 2 bugs they stomp, it creates 1 new bug.... for every 50 bugs created, it creates another 25 bugs in those areas where previously there were none... its a fact of life, pre version 1.0, the community here helped with the bug hunts... that is what "early release"and "beta" means... version one means the game is ready to be played... NOT that there are no bugs... there will always be bugs... I still own a game which I bought on CD, it was a Starship Troopers game.... I have never played it, it doesn't work, the loading screen come up and that is all... online, others have complained about the same thing, they NEVER released a fix, did not even bother to reply to the complaints... I keep it as a way to remind me that as long as a game loads, and works... mostly, then why complain... at least it works, unlike Starship Troopers....

OK... got that, or do I need to repeat it a third time?

Edited by Red Iron Crown
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Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted

If I might respond to the original post:

The line between unfinished and finished software is getting increasingly more hazy.

This attitude by game developers is what I hate. Just because AAA game developers have the resources to pour into huge marketing campaigns for their ....ty, unfinished products, doesn't mean that is the way the market should be run from now on.

Apparently, in spite of asking us to pay for it, and announcing it's official release, SQUAD had no intention of delivering a finished product to their customers.

Imagine buying a new car, and having it fall to pieces while you're driving it home. You might be inclined to go back to the dealership and complain, but when you do they say, "It's not our fault, the factory never finished building it."

That sums up my thought process, when 1.0 was released people expected a finished product, but what they received was a game not welded together properly.

The worst part of it is, instead of admitting they made a mistake, and simply asking us to hold off while they finish the game, SQUAD seems to think they can just 'patch away' their problems.

And to anyone who thinks I'm just waffling, all you have to do is look at the file structure for the game. There are unused and abandoned folders still sitting in the main game directory, that have never been removed. For some reason, they're still a part of the current game installation.

A developer that doesn't even clean up even their basic file structure before announcing a release, is a developer who has no intention of releasing a finished product.

- - - Updated - - -

(SNIP)

OK... got that, or do I need to repeat it a third time?

There is a difference between unfinished, and broken.

Kerbal Space Program is unfinished. It continues to be developed, because it was never finished in the first place.

Starship Troopers is broken. It was abandoned by the developer, because they couldn't make it work at all.

Do you see the difference? It's a huge difference. While I might complain about an unfinished game, I don't give two ....s about a broken game.

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TicTacToe!

TicTacToe!

Posted
Posted

I think if the current releases we're seeing, that is 1.0 through to 1.04 had been released as beta versions (0.91 etc. or what have you), then most of the sharpened pitchforks would have been left in the shed.

Even if it disgruntles you, if you bought the game in beta, or in alpha even more so, you kind of had to accept the fact that it was early access, and you should have read the label, your saves might break and other unfortunate things may happen. Most of the people (myself included) who have an issue with the current state of affairs is that you can't really get away with changing the definition of release-worthy software to include that kind of game experience fluctuation.

Let's say hypothetically that 1.04 is the end of our "post-release update turmoil" and that 1.05 is great and stable (I hope so!). If SQUAD had not jumped the gun and had instead stayed in beta, so that 1.04 in this scenario was, say, 0.99, then I believe the community would be largely pacified. We're your customers and a great deal of us forum-goers have been kicking around for at least a couple of versions, so essentially, if they had stayed in beta, they could have used us as an extension of the testing team to weed out all those bugs to bring up to the level of release-quality.

At the moment I think SQUAD have got themselves in a vicious circle because as good as the testing team is, it isn't big enough to pick up on everything, so each time SQUAD do a patch it's not tested enough, and because they have decided to release (prematurely, IMO), it gets whacked in the teeth with the "This is a released game why isn't it top-notch" hammer, which to be fair, is perfectly expected. Really, I wouldn't even be bothered if hypothetical version 0.99 went straight to release with no changes, that just means the job is done!

Bottom line, people are getting annnoyed because the game has major bugs that exist on the core level of the game. After a 1.0 release, all the games core mechanics should be well-realised and stable, so future bugs are few and far between and only come from relatively trivial errors. My two pennies.

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Temeriki

Temeriki

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Posted

When a game is in early access you expect save breaking with each update, its the beast of early access. Once a game is released patches should be balance changes, maybe some new features added but at this point forward updates SHOULDNT be save breaking. Yes some of us like to build our ships on pretty thin margins so any small change to any factor may cause our carefully designed ships to not fly the way they used too, cant really complain about that, balance changes happen.

One of the big issues seems to be (with the community) every patch since "release" has introduced multiple save breaking bugs, sure with all the possible system configs theres always someone whose hardware is set up a certain way that doesnt take an update well. But these werent few and far between, these were bugs that were easily reproduced and affected pretty standard rocket setups (heatshields anyone) on EVERY system. Now if this was still in early access not a big issue, its early access it happens. But this isnt Early access anymore, this is a release, amateur hour is over.

The other big issue that people seem to have is the out of nowhere rush from beta to release. This behavior has been seen many times in the past by other "early access" games. This behavior is usually indicative of the developer running low on funds and pushing it to release for another cash grab. Squad can say whatever they want to try to mitigate our fears, but all the things their saying have been said in the past by other early access games as well. Im sure anyone who invests in early access games can think of other times theyve seen this.

So there was this "random" push to "release" (this game is still in beta imo), shortly after "release" there was a huge announcement, I like to refer to it as the PS4 faceslap. Whoever in marketing though that would make for a dev note should be fired into the sun, using my sundiver series of solar perpetrators (sometimes the best stress relief is launching little green men into the sun). Suddenly "release" made sense, cant port an early access game to consoles. Problem is how many times have early access gamers seen announcements for ports or sequels in the past while the game was still in dev. What usually happens? Development of the original is halted, sure theyll tell us their just working on the port and theyll get back to the main game. After that announcement I have never once seen a game go back into development (ive wasted way to much money on early access.... I may have a gambling problem lol). Squad can say whatever they want to tell us that isnt true, alls im hearing is the same crap ive heard a million times before.

The last big issue I can think of was this game was carried on the backs of the community, most dev games dont last this long in dev because the community falls apart and interest wavers. After all the years of Squad keeping the community in the loop right at the end they pretty much cut us out and pushed a buggy "release", it was a big slap in the face, that will leave a bad taste in anyones mouth.

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