Some general thoughts from a veteran player.

[Jwmflying14]

I've been playing KSP since long before the steam crowd showed up. (My first was .14 IIRC)

Throughout time I was usually 1 update behind. Most of the time it was due to waiting for my favorite Mods, and the fact that I normally lose most of my content and ships, etc.

I am not on 1.02, an I must say for the first time I am disappointed, and considering going back in time. I truly hope that KSP does not continue in this same direction.

Long story short, I finally updated because I wanted to mine surfaces, replenish supplies, set up bases, etc.

Here is a short list of my current gripes and complaints:

- Glowing space craft representing heat damage. Even after pressing F10, half the time certain parts are still a hue of red. Okay, so it is a minor annoyance.

- Current Atmosphere and flight physics. 0.90 with FAR in my opinion was the best yet.

- Lack of control surface options. Why can't you any longer control deflection, and the amount of input?? Only have the option to activate or deactivate a function is extremely annoying.

- The new graphics seem even more cartoon-y. I am not sure how to word this properly, as KSP has always (obviously) been cartoony. That isn't my complaint. My complaint is that many of the new objects just have a dull-ness to them

- Rapid updates! What is up with this? We are already on 1.04, when 1.0 came out only 2 months ago! 4 updates? Really? How are mod's supposed to keep up with that?

Anyways... These are just a few of my complaints and thoughts.

Does anyone have any suggestion as to what I can do to improve my experience? Essentially I LOVED .90, and I really wanted some of the features of 1.0+ (mining, thermal radiators, etc).... Unfortunately, at this point I feel like I have to choose between the two.

What are YOUR thoughts and experiences? Lets make this a group discussion.

Thanks! Fly safe!

-Justin

[Geschosskopf]

1.0.2 is the worst of the recent lot IMHO, due to memory leaks and other issues. 1.0.4 fixed at least 1 of the memory leaks and has a more rational heat/aero model. So if you can't go back, go forward.

The glowing stuff from heat still happens in 1.0.4 but it's just the actual "red hot" stuff we've always had, no more flashing highlights.

I don't recall ever being able to change the amount of control surface deflection in stock. That was always a FAR thing.

The rapid series of updates has indeed wrought some havoc. To be fair, there have only really been 2 updates from 1.0 so far. 1.0.2 and 1.0.4 were just same-day hot-fixes for game-killers in 1.0.1 and 1.0.3, which were the real updates. However, 1.0 itself, then 1.0.1/2 and 1.0.3/4 all made significant changes to basic game mechanics involving aero and heat stuff, so each broke games and mods, and stirred up resentment in the community for these reasons.

There have been many group discussions on these various subjects. If you look down the page here, you'll see most of them are still active. You might want to catch up.

[Canopus]

Why should they delay updates just so modders can keep up? I don't really get that. Also what do you mean by new graphics?

[Jwmflying14]

1.0.2 is the worst of the recent lot IMHO, due to memory leaks and other issues. 1.0.4 fixed at least 1 of the memory leaks and has a more rational heat/aero model. So if you can't go back, go forward.

The glowing stuff from heat still happens in 1.0.4 but it's just the actual "red hot" stuff we've always had, no more flashing highlights.

I don't recall ever being able to change the amount of control surface deflection in stock. That was always a FAR thing.

The rapid series of updates has indeed wrought some havoc. To be fair, there have only really been 2 updates from 1.0 so far. 1.0.2 and 1.0.4 were just same-day hot-fixes for game-killers in 1.0.1 and 1.0.3, which were the real updates. However, 1.0 itself, then 1.0.1/2 and 1.0.3/4 all made significant changes to basic game mechanics involving aero and heat stuff, so each broke games and mods, and stirred up resentment in the community for these reasons.

There have been many group discussions on these various subjects. If you look down the page here, you'll see most of them are still active. You might want to catch up.

Thanks for the input. Glad I am not the only one frustrated.

It seems as if in the past, the larger separation between updates came with more complete updates, with more significant changes. Not just simply tweaks.

Why should they delay updates just so modders can keep up? I don't really get that. Also what do you mean by new graphics?

I am not sure if you noticed, but there are very few players that play mod-free. Most players have a select few necessity mods, and a few nicety mods. Many of us don't update until our necessity mods are there, and then happily wait for the nicety mods. In the case of 1.0+ it is just a Charlie Foxtrot, when it comes to tailoring your game to the way you like to play. By going through so many updates so rapidly, they push out an unfinished, or broken product (hence the recent frustration). It also never allow a decent mod base. Look at .25 or .90 and the variety of mods that were available for any style of game play. With the current mess of updates, you have a handful that work with 1.xx, another handful that work with 1.yy, and even fewer that work with 1.zz. Instead if they held off on the 1.0 release for another 2 months and had EVERYTHING squared away, while the rest of us were playing the stable, and community supported .90, they wouldn't require 1.01, 1.02, 1.03, and now 1.04.

[ExEvolution]

Thanks for the input. Glad I am not the only one frustrated.

It seems as if in the past, the larger separation between updates came with more complete updates, with more significant changes. Not just simply tweaks.

I am not sure if you noticed, but there are very few players that play mod-free. Most players have a select few necessity mods, and a few nicety mods. Many of us don't update until our necessity mods are there, and then happily wait for the nicety mods. In the case of 1.0+ it is just a Charlie Foxtrot, when it comes to tailoring your game to the way you like to play. By going through so many updates so rapidly, they push out an unfinished, or broken product (hence the recent frustration). It also never allow a decent mod base. Look at .25 or .90 and the variety of mods that were available for any style of game play. With the current mess of updates, you have a handful that work with 1.xx, another handful that work with 1.yy, and even fewer that work with 1.zz. Instead if they held off on the 1.0 release for another 2 months and had EVERYTHING squared away, while the rest of us were playing the stable, and community supported .90, they wouldn't require 1.01, 1.02, 1.03, and now 1.04.

The updates would have been just as broken, the majority of changes between recent versions are based on player feedback. The players are the best beta testers, because they will try to do things in unexpected ways

[annallia]

As to the mod issue that is really a non issue. Normally updates are far enough apart that the modders have reasonable time to update their mods. The 1.0.X issue was all bug fixes really that needed to be done.

Also most of the mods didn't really break with 1.0.4 There is only one that I use regularly that even gives a "may not work" thing and it works just fine, the rest were all just fine as well. I realize that there are people who have half thier mod list not working now, and I realize that some of the bigger mods like B9 hadn't been updated in a long while, but in the end you cannot really fault Squad for that and it will, eventually, be updated.

[FlowerChild]

1.0.2 is the worst of the recent lot IMHO, due to memory leaks and other issues. 1.0.4 fixed at least 1 of the memory leaks and has a more rational heat/aero model. So if you can't go back, go forward.

Oddly, I have the exact opposite impression and think that 1.04 is actually the worst of the bunch. The new heat system in particular seems to have a number of bugs with randomly fluctuating temperatures, randomly exploding parts, and using timewarp during reentry seems to have become a non-option as it radically changes the behavior of the system.

So yeah, if anything I consider it to be a step backwards from 1.02 in that at least its behavior was fairly consistent and predictable. I think I'm developing a Pavlovian response to say "oh oh" every time Squad announces they're adding a new features to these hot-fixes

Edited July 2, 2015 by FlowerChild

[Canopus]

I am not sure if you noticed, but there are very few players that play mod-free. Most players have a select few necessity mods, and a few nicety mods. Many of us don't update until our necessity mods are there, and then happily wait for the nicety mods. In the case of 1.0+ it is just a Charlie Foxtrot, when it comes to tailoring your game to the way you like to play. By going through so many updates so rapidly, they push out an unfinished, or broken product (hence the recent frustration). It also never allow a decent mod base. Look at .25 or .90 and the variety of mods that were available for any style of game play. With the current mess of updates, you have a handful that work with 1.xx, another handful that work with 1.yy, and even fewer that work with 1.zz. Instead if they held off on the 1.0 release for another 2 months and had EVERYTHING squared away, while the rest of us were playing the stable, and community supported .90, they wouldn't require 1.01, 1.02, 1.03, and now 1.04.

You installed the mods and i am sure you knew very well that there are always compatibility problems between versions. Squad isn't responsible for mod compatibility.

[Jwmflying14]

Quite frankly, I feel they tried to rush too many changes. In my opinion, 0.25 (or.90), with an atmosphere built from inspiration from FAR (or at least NEAR), and the additions of mining etc, would have made a more complete release than the current. The heat additions etc, are awesome but so far flawed it is unbelievable. It is ridiculous to have my craft look like a glowing checker board as one wing panel is about to fail (and glowing bright red) meanwhile the one right next to it, or opposite of it, can be good as new. It seems as if not long after STEAM got ahold of KSP, and traffic really started building, did things start to feel rushed. I actually really liked .90 and it gave me confidence that when they did release a finished product, it would be along the same lines. Unfortunately I feel more similarities between .25 and .90 than I do between .90 and 1.0x, and not in the good direction.

You installed the mods and i am sure you knew very well that there are always compatibility problems between versions. Squad isn't responsible for mod compatibility.

What are you talking about? I never said Squad was responsible for compatibility. You are acting like an arrogant jerk. I am simply pointing out that without adequate time before releasing new versions, the mods fall behind. It is literally that simple. Do not read so far into it.

- - - Updated - - -

As to the mod issue that is really a non issue. Normally updates are far enough apart that the modders have reasonable time to update their mods. The 1.0.X issue was all bug fixes really that needed to be done.

Also most of the mods didn't really break with 1.0.4 There is only one that I use regularly that even gives a "may not work" thing and it works just fine, the rest were all just fine as well. I realize that there are people who have half thier mod list not working now, and I realize that some of the bigger mods like B9 hadn't been updated in a long while, but in the end you cannot really fault Squad for that and it will, eventually, be updated.

Got it, so most mods labeled for 1.0x are generally compatible with 1.02, 1.03, 1.04, as the various versions are mostly bug fixes, and not reworks such as in previous releases.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Jwmflying14

[Geschosskopf]

It seems as if in the past, the larger separation between updates came with more complete updates, with more significant changes. Not just simply tweaks.

1.0.1/2 and 1.0.3/4 were by no means "simple tweaks". For instance, they ripped out and totally replaced the whole heat system with a radically different model between 1.01/2 and 1.0.3/4. I find the 1.0.3/4 version MUCH better than 1.0.1/2. So that's all to the good.

The problem is how this all happened. A brief recap:

1.0 was released and, because many modders are "in the loop" as it were, a huge number of mods for 1.0 were released almost simultaneously with the game update.

But 1.0 somehow got out the door without the drag model it should have had, so you could reach LKO with only 2800m/s. So 1.0.1/2 came out about 5 days later putting this in place, fixing a few things, adding some new parts that the new aero system made necessary, etc. This was just long enough for many folks to have just gotten the hang of designing ships for 1.0, and those ships wouldn't work in 1.0.2. Plus 1.0.2 introduced some major crash bugs and was generally unreliable. But it was all we had for a while, so we played it.

Then about 3 weeks later, 1.0.3/4 came out. This interval was just long enough for many mods to have caught up with 1.0.2, which I understand required significant work to change from 1.0. And just as these updated mods were starting to appear, all that work went for naught with the release of 1.0.3/4. As mentioned above, 1.0.3/4 totally changed the basic heat system and revised the aero system as well, so now the modders who aren't totally shell-shocked and frustrated are just now starting back to work again from square 1. Don't expect a whole bunch of 1.0.4 mods for a little bit longer. They're in the pipeline but these things take time.

On the whole 1.0.4 is a decent improvement over 1.0.2. There are still some obvious problems with it but the game is a lot more stable and the heat and aero systems mostly work a lot better.

I get the impression (I could be wrong) that we'll have 1.0.4 for the usual duration of several months. AFAIK, Squad doesn't intend on another 1.0 patch but is instead working on 1.1, which among other things is supposedly going to Unity 5 and 64-bit (yay!). So the modders who are still in business should have you up and running shortly.

[Canopus]

What are you talking about? I never said Squad was responsible for compatibility. You are acting like an arrogant jerk. I am simply pointing out that without adequate time before releasing new versions, the mods fall behind. It is literally that simple. Do not read so far into it.

You are annoyed with frequent updates because they break mods that you use? What is the difference?

[Jwmflying14]

1.0.1/2 and 1.0.3/4 were by no means "simple tweaks". For instance, they ripped out and totally replaced the whole heat system with a radically different model between 1.01/2 and 1.0.3/4. I find the 1.0.3/4 version MUCH better than 1.0.1/2. So that's all to the good.

The problem is how this all happened. A brief recap:

1.0 was released and, because many modders are "in the loop" as it were, a huge number of mods for 1.0 were released almost simultaneously with the game update.

But 1.0 somehow got out the door without the drag model it should have had, so you could reach LKO with only 2800m/s. So 1.0.1/2 came out about 5 days later putting this in place, fixing a few things, adding some new parts that the new aero system made necessary, etc. This was just long enough for many folks to have just gotten the hang of designing ships for 1.0, and those ships wouldn't work in 1.0.2. Plus 1.0.2 introduced some major crash bugs and was generally unreliable. But it was all we had for a while, so we played it.

Then about 3 weeks later, 1.0.3/4 came out. This interval was just long enough for many mods to have caught up with 1.0.2, which I understand required significant work to change from 1.0. And just as these updated mods were starting to appear, all that work went for naught with the release of 1.0.3/4. As mentioned above, 1.0.3/4 totally changed the basic heat system and revised the aero system as well, so now the modders who aren't totally shell-shocked and frustrated are just now starting back to work again from square 1. Don't expect a whole bunch of 1.0.4 mods for a little bit longer. They're in the pipeline but these things take time.

On the whole 1.0.4 is a decent improvement over 1.0.2. There are still some obvious problems with it but the game is a lot more stable and the heat and aero systems mostly work a lot better.

I get the impression (I could be wrong) that we'll have 1.0.4 for the usual duration of several months. AFAIK, Squad doesn't intend on another 1.0 patch but is instead working on 1.1, which among other things is supposedly going to Unity 5 and 64-bit (yay!). So the modders who are still in business should have you up and running shortly.

Thank you for such a complete answer!

I see a lot of potential in the 1.0 general "ideas," IE; heating, mining, planetary bases, etc. I just felt there was a huge separation from the way things have been done for so many years to now. all of the "ideas" seem to have huge potential, and I really look forward to using them, hence my on the fence feelings between keeping up vs downgrading back to .90 where I was having a ton of fun.

[Caelib]

I've been playing more than two years and I personally think the every update has been worthwhile. IMO, the game has been better with every update.

I think it's really unfair to fault Squad for incompatibility with your chosen mods in regard to updates. And while there have been 4 revisions since 1.0, it was more like two updates with smaller fixes to those updates within 24 hours of each other.

Generally speaking, I think people have been far too harsh in their judgement on the game since 1.0 came out. KSP is still the fantastic game it has always been.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Caelib

[Jwmflying14]

I've been playing more than two years and I personally think the every update has been worthwhile. IMO, the game has been better with every update.

I think it's really unfair to fault Squad for incompatibility with your chosen mods in regard to updates. And while there have been 4 revisions since 1.0, it was more like two updates with smaller fixes to those updates within 24 hours of each other.

Generally speaking, I think people have been far too harsh in their judgement on the game since 1.0 came out. KSP is still the fantastic game it has always been.

For the most part, I agree. I feel that the stable additions (IE, .24 to .25, .25 to .90) of gameplay add a ton of fun. That being said, The previous releases were all semi-stable, and fairly well ironed out.

In regarding to blaming squad, I am not solely blaming them. Simply stating that it is extremely hard for any mod developers to keep up when they can't keep their stuff together. Most of the fanbase plays with mods, and the constant revisions of 1.0 have certainly impacted the development. How you can not put some blame on squad, I do not know. I suppose if you blame me for playing with mods in the first place, but that is not my point. Speaking of which, its not like I am playing with obscure, and uncommon mods. The most broadly used mods B9, etc...

[Camaron]

Yes, its a bit harsh on players and modders when updates change things dramatically in quick succession. You will live.

But these are changes that HAD to happen. KSP needed a heat system and a proper aero system. There's no way around the possibility that Squad's first idea on how to implement those things may not be a good one.. The only real thing I can smack the Squad team for is naming this a "1.0 release" and then introducing massive changes like this. These are BETA changes, Squad! Maybe even alpha! These are entirely new game mechanics in some cases. Mining? I love it, don't get me wrong, but that's like having GTA released, then seeing Rockstar patch in the Pay-N-Spray / Los Santos Customs functionality three weeks later.

[SubzeroSpartan7]

I think everything is great. The heating is a bit weird, and I wish there were structural failures like with FAR. But, the laws of physics changing every other week is a bit annoying.

[DoToH]

I am not sure if you noticed, but there are very few players that play mod-free.

Nobody can say that. Nobody has data to prove any assertion about percentage of players using mods. Even Squad can't know if I'm using mods in my KSP install if I don't want to.

if they held off on the 1.0 release for another 2 months and had EVERYTHING squared away, while the rest of us were playing the stable, and community supported .90, they wouldn't require 1.01, 1.02, 1.03, and now 1.04.

We tried, but, after all, it's their game.

[Jwmflying14]

Sure, nobody can tell, but the fact that there are almost a million mechjeb downloads certainly shows some heavy usage of mods. That doesn't even include those like me that don't even use mechjeb, and only use KW, B9 and the likes.

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

I have played KSP for over 2300 hours now and the only thing that really grinds my gear are the Contracts that you get.

Everything is fine until you make it to Orbit, after that it all goes haywire.

With the new aero and the tweak on the Jet engines, you cant even test parts or do surveys inside the atmosphere anymore (most of the time above 18k) because the Basic Jet engines flame out at around 16k.

Also the Survey contracts with their random Location and altitude are the worst.

Why not simply ask the Player to get reading from the Biomes we already got and divide them into "Surface/just above/high above".

I almost forgot the delivery of Satelites that you can deorbit right after or to fulfill 2-3 Contracts with the same satelite. Or what about the delivery of Spacestations... one after another. Or the Surface-Bases that are of no purpose.

The Fineprint-imigration was the worst thing Squad could come up with to fill the gap until they come up with their own contracts. *fingers crossed*

BUT! I have to repeat.

Kerbal Space Program is an awesome game!

Edited July 3, 2015 by MalfunctionM1Ke

[regex]

I have played KSP for over 2300 hours now and the only thing that really grinds my gear are the Contracts that you get.

Everything is fine until you make it to Orbit, after that it all goes haywire.

I find that Contract Configurator (for blocking certain kinds of contracts from appearing) and a max of 30 available contracts (up from 10) handily solves a good chunk of the contract idiocy (although not all, obviously).

[mythbusters844]

I've been playing KSP since long before the steam crowd showed up. (My first was .14 IIRC)

Throughout time I was usually 1 update behind. Most of the time it was due to waiting for my favorite Mods, and the fact that I normally lose most of my content and ships, etc.

I am not on 1.02, an I must say for the first time I am disappointed, and considering going back in time. I truly hope that KSP does not continue in this same direction.

Long story short, I finally updated because I wanted to mine surfaces, replenish supplies, set up bases, etc.

Here is a short list of my current gripes and complaints:

- Glowing space craft representing heat damage. Even after pressing F10, half the time certain parts are still a hue of red. Okay, so it is a minor annoyance.

- Current Atmosphere and flight physics. 0.90 with FAR in my opinion was the best yet.

- Lack of control surface options. Why can't you any longer control deflection, and the amount of input?? Only have the option to activate or deactivate a function is extremely annoying.

- The new graphics seem even more cartoon-y. I am not sure how to word this properly, as KSP has always (obviously) been cartoony. That isn't my complaint. My complaint is that many of the new objects just have a dull-ness to them

- Rapid updates! What is up with this? We are already on 1.04, when 1.0 came out only 2 months ago! 4 updates? Really? How are mod's supposed to keep up with that?

Anyways... These are just a few of my complaints and thoughts.

Does anyone have any suggestion as to what I can do to improve my experience? Essentially I LOVED .90, and I really wanted some of the features of 1.0+ (mining, thermal radiators, etc).... Unfortunately, at this point I feel like I have to choose between the two.

What are YOUR thoughts and experiences? Lets make this a group discussion.

Thanks! Fly safe!

-Justin

I agree with you, but I want to point a few things out.

- Glowing space craft representing heat damage. Even after pressing F10, half the time certain parts are still a hue of red. Okay, so it is a minor annoyance.

You forgot to mention that the (ugly) glow doesn't properly update and the glow persists even after the part has completely cooled.

-...0.90 with FAR in my opinion was the best yet.

Then you obviously haven't seen the new beautiful FAR which uses voxelization to compute aerodynamics instead of the old and flawed system that didn't couldn't take part clipping into account (interestingly enough, the 1.0 aerodynamics use a buggy and rushed version of FAR's old system of part-based aero calcs).

- Lack of control surface options. Why can't you any longer control deflection, and the amount of input?? Only have the option to activate or deactivate a function is extremely annoying.

Tweakable control surfaces is a FAR feature (but is badly needed in stock).

- Rapid updates! What is up with this? We are already on 1.04, when 1.0 came out only 2 months ago! 4 updates? Really? How are mod's supposed to keep up with that?

Exactly. 40% of my mods still haven't been updated, so I'm stuck on 1.0.2. They should have taken a month longer on 1.0.4 to make sure it was not as terribly buggy and cobbled-together as it is now, but to be honest it would probably make little difference :^).

Edited July 3, 2015 by mythbusters844

[Sharpy]

First things first, upgrade to 1.0.4 or .3.

1.0.2 aero was a step back. 1.0.3/4 aero is a step... in a different direction. I'd say forward, though a lot to the side. The new aero is more challenging, more difficult to live with, but once you master it, it opens up new possibilities that simply weren't there before.

You will need to use parts you didn't use in the past - even ones that didn't exist. You will need to change your tactics, relearn a lot. But once you do, the effects are very satisfying. I believe that update was well worth the broken mod compatibility.

And yeah, a lot of old players will whine about it - for precisely these reasons: that their old tricks based on the game's former shortcomings don't work anymore. That they can't point their SSTOs into the sky and have them in orbit with no effort - that they currently require a rather peculiar trajectory with a lengthy horizontal segment and even a bit of descent. That they crash or burn up at reentry of 30 degrees and need to relearn the maneuver.

And yes, there are still bugs and problems, but less than there were - and less of the exploitable kind.

[Lord Aurelius]

I agree with the sentiment of the OP. My fully modded 0.90 install is the best KSP experience I've had so far.

From a stock standpoint, 1.0.4 is better than 0.90, but not amazingly so. The new features in 1.0 had already been done better by existing mods (although the new heat system sounds like it now goes beyond DRE and could be awesome once they get the values right). Additionally, for every 0.90 bug they fixed, it seemed like they added a new issue, resulting in the whole 1.0.x mess.

Once Squad stops drastically changing things with supposedly minor updates and the mods are updated accordingly, I have no doubt that a fully modded 1.0.4 would be better than 0.90, but we're not quite at that point yet. I have a hunch this won't happen until after 1.1 though since it sounds like Unity 5 will drastically change things yet again, and a lot of modders will likely wait and see what that brings before putting in a lot of work.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Lord Aurelius

[Korizan]

The OP's Title should say "Some general thoughts from a Beta player"

And from there it should go along the line of I remember when.....

And I can't help but compare the beta version with the current version because I refuse to move on.

Side Note

And modders will update their mods or they won't.

A modder has zero requirements to update.

KSP has zero requirements to wait on a mod to catch up, they can update the game whenever they want.

Yes I use mods but not many of them.

Why because I learned a long time ago that you choose your mods very carefully or except that you will forever be several versions behind the game and will be forced to live with the bugs until your favorite mod author has the time and the desire to update their mod.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Korizan

[Jwmflying14]

Thank you Koran for your constructive input. (Or lack thereof)

First I'd like to iterate that I can, and will, write my own posts regardless of what you think. Although you might have discovered KSP in beta, many of us have played sine before there were even such thing as mods. So get off your pedestal and hear someone out once in a while.

I do not refuse to move on, in fact after the input from the truly constructive comments here, I installed 1.04 and admit it is at least a little better. That being said, if you had been around prior to beta, you would know that the releases between say .24 and .25 were much smoother. From my point of view, everything was more collected and less rushed. It almost seems as if after steam adopted it, Squad started to see dollar signs, and started rushing products. I am by no means saying that IS what happened, but it sure is interesting that we had better and more stable releases BEFORE the game was even in BETA. Almost ad if it was a work of love, turned into corporatized business. (I am not saying squad doesnt deserve it, they do. In my opinion the work they did and breakthroughs they have made, should earn them millions, as I would have payed much more than what I did back then. That being said, I also only feel that way because of their dedication I have seen through all the early pre-beta versions. This new method of doing things, isn't what we are used to.)

Oh yes, I would like to point out that if I WERE to retitle the post as "beta player" I would be lying as Beta is VERY recent to some of us that have been playing much longer.

Edited July 5, 2015 by Jwmflying14