MechJeb vs non MechJeb

[GoSlash27]

[quote name='kiwi1960']You guys do know Google is bringing out driverless cars soon, don'tcha???

yep... only their autopilot isn't called MechJeb..... but its still cheating... isn't it?

Go bleat to Google that they shouldn't do this, that its cheating.... go on....[/QUOTE]

Kiwi,
KSP is a single player game. Therefore what does or does not constitute "cheating" is up to the individual player. If someone thinks it's cheating, then it is. If someone thinks it's not, then it's not.
With the exception of challenges that stipulate "no MechJeb", whether or not it's cheating is completely subjective; a matter of personal opinion.
Why you feel the need to argue with other people about why your opinion is superior to theirs is beyond me, but [U]this matter was laid to rest months ago.[/U] Can you *please* just let it rest in peace?

Best,
-Slashy

[Vermil]

[quote name='kiwi1960']You guys do know Google is bringing out driverless cars soon, don'tcha???

yep... only their autopilot isn't called MechJeb..... but its still cheating... isn't it?

Go bleat to Google that they shouldn't do this, that its cheating.... go on....[/QUOTE]

It's about how you derive the fun.
I'm sure people who drive sport cars on twisty roads or even in races won't appreciate Google's driving aid for that. Those who have to make long hours journeys a couple of times every week, probably have more fun if something else takes care of the driving.

[Bosun]

I'll just mention, in case anyone didn't in the last....29 pages....All spacecraft launched after Apollo began had ascent profiles and programs loaded into them for the pilots to 'Execute' at the right times. This is exactly what Mechjeb is actually simulating. Not a single launch, that I'm aware of, even before Apollo, correct me if I'm wrong, had a pilot launching from the pad with his hand on the stick....

So for me, Mechjeb isn't cheating. It's actually providing a tool that should have already been there. The ability for ground control and mission planning to do the math ahead of you, load the algorithms into the ship's computer, and allow that all you need to do is execute the programs in the right order, to fly the ship.

Remember - NASA's challenge was never "have the rocket make orbit because the pilot was steady on the stick." It was - "Have it make orbit because it was loaded properly and designed well." It was never, "Get to the moon because the pilot can steer a straight line." It was "get to the moon because the ship was built to be capable of that, and the astronauts were able to stay on schedule with the program."

When I load manuever editor, or ascent profile....that's me punching the math into the onboard computer that I'd surely have, and having that program be run by the computer while I oversee it's completion. Sometimes there are hiccups. The program doesn't execute precisely enough, and I have to work out a correction, or the atmosphere affects the program's algorithm, and you have to manually reset the node (IE - manually punch in a new correction). Mechjeb still doesn't land on the moon for me, I must descend myself. Mechjeb doesn't stage. Mechjeb doesn't EVA for science. And it doesn't plan the whole trip for me. *I* plan the trip, by building it in the maneuver nodes.

So no, Mechjeb is not 'cheating,' quite contrary, it is a very elemental tool that simulates more conditions we cannot actually replicate in a game. Heck, if anything, we should be able to go into the Tracking Center and literally "Build" a mission or trip. Using algorithms like "Trajectories" mod, we should be able to plan an entire set of Manuever nodes that will give us a rounded estimate of DV necessary, as well as giving us a launch window. Never has NASA sent a probe to Mars who's course wasn't laid out in full, down to the M/S entry into the atmosphere, years in advance. In Kerbal - we must guess, once we make orbit, THEN we plan our intercept. Once we burn the first time, THEN we configure a fine tune adjustment. All these steps are completed in the real world, here on earth, well before the ship ever leaves. Each ship is purpose built to exactly the weight and thrust needed to reach the target orbit or planet.

No one ever intercepted an asteroid at NASA by shooting a probe into orbit and going, "Ok, now where's that asteroid at?" Edited November 22, 2015 by Bosun

[Virtualgenius]

+1 to Bosun

[Dunbaratu]

[quote name='Bosun']I'll just mention, in case anyone didn't in the last....29 pages....All spacecraft launched after Apollo began had ascent profiles and programs loaded into them for the pilots to 'Execute' at the right times. This is exactly what Mechjeb is actually simulating.[/QUOTE]
That's what kOS, and kRPC simulate. What Mechjeb simulates is what it would have been like if that software didn't have to be specially made custom for the space program and could be just bought off the shelf. Programming the AGC for Apollo was just as much of a major effort as making the rockets was. Edited November 22, 2015 by Steven Mading

[Findthepin1]

Poll options:
MechJeb
Mon Mechjeb

-----------

Bonjour, mon MechJeb! XD

-----------
Alternatively,

MechJebMon, use Pilot!

:D jk

[selfish_meme]

[quote name='Steven Mading']That's what kOS, and kRPC simulate. What Mechjeb simulates is what it would have been like if that software didn't have to be specially made custom for the space program and could be just bought off the shelf. Programming the AGC for Apollo was just as much of a major effort as making the rockets was.[/QUOTE]

At the time, all software was custom, but the game has nuclear engines and advanced computerised technology.

[Waxing_Kibbous]

Yeah but [url]http://www.nbcnews.com/science/space/apollo-11-plus-45-how-neil-armstrong-saved-day-moon-n160386[/url]

:D You still gotta have Jeb when things get rough

[Tourist]

I personally don't use mechjeb but have no objection to its use.

I think new players should not use it in the first instance though. Its in there interest to learn to do everything manually first, then use mechjeb to eliminate the routine tasks later on.

I'd go further and say that there should be a stock autopilot. However I do not think it should be available from the start of a new career. It could be via the techtree, I'd say towards mid-game. Alternatively it could be available early on, but needs to be "trained". For instance, it can't do rendevous, unless you have performed one manually, or maybe certain scientific tasks, unlock its capabilities.

[Overland]

Mechjebs bloody awful at convoys of trains running side by side ..any track seems to be followed only if it wants too and usually seems to turn far too late.. Or too soon so the loco rolls.. KOS is a much more dependable thing for me.. But.. it might just be a train thing.. Seems to get confused with a 60 ton locomotive and 6 tankers more than the old style trijet landliners

One of them things that looked to be awesome but didnt quite work..

The only time ive successfully used it is with sitalights
KAX radial engine with spotlights on the bottom..
Kept hovering overhead for an artificial sun on demand

And.. You know I think rockets and planes are cheating.. All that lovely detailed beautiful land on kerbin and you coldly leave it for the cold blackness of space...or fly over it with a plane..

Wheres the poll for that? Your all cheaters then...ALLLLLLLLLL :) Edited November 23, 2015 by Overland

[Shark4558]

well,i use mechjeb,when i have a large ship,and it is difficult to maneuver..but if im piloting a decent ship,naah.i dont use mechjeb.

also about the word "cheat",it is very relative.
if you tell mechjeb to do a maneuver called "hohmann something" that you dont know how to perform it.but know what it does,it maybe can be called "cheat".
but if you did it 100 times the same maneuver.it is doing it for you because you did the same maneuver 100 times....
and.if you tell mechjeb to do a interplanetary burn of a heavy ship because it is prone to deviating of the node it can be called "piloting aid".

so my opinion: mechjeb can be a autopilot,or cheat mod depending how you use it....

(my english is very poor,it may have misspelled words.send me a PM so i correct the errors :D)

[Sirine]

Non-MechJeb. Edited November 23, 2015 by Red Iron Crown

[Dunbaratu]

[quote name='selfish_meme']At the time, all software was custom, but the game has nuclear engines and advanced computerised technology.[/QUOTE]
It's still custom *today*. It's not like the Philae lander had the latest "Microsoft Comet intercept software v1.2" downloaded off the net and installed on it.

[herbal space program]

[FONT="Calibri"][COLOR=#000000]Never used it once. Learned how to do everything without it. Don’t need it at all now![/COLOR][/FONT]

[cyberpawn]

I use KER and mechjeb.. for orbit and surface info.. and yeah when lazy attack me.. i use auto circulation.. i dont think mechjeb is cheat..

[Robotengineer]

I use KER. If you feel successful after using MechJeb autopilot, you're cheating [I]yourself[/I], not the game. Unless you are playing with RemoteTech, which is practically impossible (with time delay) without MJ or kOS.

[r4pt0r]

[quote name='Robotengineer']If you feel successful after using MechJeb autopilot, you're cheating [I]yourself[/I], not the game.[/QUOTE]

Thats well said.

It's like "Congrats! You turned gameplay into essentially a cutscene, way to go!"

[AlamoVampire]

<dusts the dust off the account>

Alright folks, I have said this a few times over the years, and I will say it again:

If you want to hand do every single bit of minute fussing around while redoing the SAME THING time and time again, more power to you. If autopilot is good enough for NASA for just about every single aspect of every single mission flown since we started flinging monkeys into space, then, believe me when I say, that, there is absolutely nothing wrong with letting mechjeb handle the long burns, the repeated launches of the same rocket launching payload after payload at a station. What it boils down to is this: WHO BLOODY CARES?!? Who bloody cares if one person relies on mechjeb to grab greater enjoyment out of the game? Do you drive a car that has cruise control and do you make regular use of it? if so, YOU ARE CHEATING! You should always use your foot to control the speed of your car every single inch down the road...oh wait, its put there into the vehicle so you dont have to.

that bloody simple.

[r4pt0r]

[quote name='AlamoVampire']<dusts the dust off the account>

Alright folks, I have said this a few times over the years, and I will say it again:

If you want to hand do every single bit of minute fussing around while redoing the SAME THING time and time again, more power to you. If autopilot is good enough for NASA for just about every single aspect of every single mission flown since we started flinging monkeys into space, then, believe me when I say, that, there is absolutely nothing wrong with letting mechjeb handle the long burns, the repeated launches of the same rocket launching payload after payload at a station. What it boils down to is this: WHO BLOODY CARES?!? Who bloody cares if one person relies on mechjeb to grab greater enjoyment out of the game? Do you drive a car that has cruise control and do you make regular use of it? if so, YOU ARE CHEATING! You should always use your foot to control the speed of your car every single inch down the road...oh wait, its put there into the vehicle so you dont have to.

that bloody simple.[/QUOTE]

lol :D :sticktongue: :cool:

[Goomblah]

[quote name='r4pt0r']Thats well said.

It's like "Congrats! You turned gameplay into essentially a cutscene, way to go!"[/QUOTE]

The problem is that you're defining "gameplay" as "piloting spacecraft". KSP is about much more than just the piloting challenges - there's the engineering of the spacecraft themselves, setup and management of any infrastructure you may want/need (i.e. life support, EPL, RemoteTech, or any of the colonization mods), the actual exploration when you finally get to your destination, and for Career and Science modes, some management decisions over contracts and R&D.

I would compare playing with MechJeb to playing a RTS game - You're controlling your units and telling them where to go (and how to get there), but the decisions of what to do and how you do it are entirely up to you. I wouldn't ever brag about, say, completing a suicide burn safely that, in reality, was done by MechJeb, or abuse MechJeb to complete piloting contests. I design and test the craft I build, oversee production of individual units, and monitor them as they move to their objectives. Once there, I complete whatever task I set out to do, then recall that mission back to its home base.

This isn't to say I don't enjoy piloting - in particular, I love flying atmospheric craft and I find orbital rendezvous and docking (which I do without MJ's assistance) to be really fun. If you enjoy the challenge of piloting ascents and executing maneuvers manually, by all means go ahead. But I'm not interested in manually following the exact same ascent profile for every single launch like some mechanical pilot, so I have an actual mechanical pilot do it for me.

[oglommi]

Mechjeb is brilliant, tedious to do all the launches/landings?. And I need the porkchop thingy for interplanetary stuff. SmartASS is also good to have

[Umlüx]

[quote name='AlamoVampire']*snip*[/QUOTE]

this!
oh my god, so much this!

[FungusForge]

[quote name='AlamoVampire']-snip-[/QUOTE]
While threads don't normally have winners, you win anyway.

[Kyrt Malthorn]

In a single-player game, it's only cheating if the player considers it cheating. Player A may enjoy doing everything themselves with regard to flying rockets, and there's nothing wrong with that. Player B may find it tedious and/or simply not have enough time in the day to micromanage a space agency, so uses MJ, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's not like an MMO where autopilot from a 3rd party giving one player an unbalanced advantage over another IS cheating. It's single player, so whatever fits your play style is fine. :)

I do not personally use mechjeb. Someday I might if I get tired of launching things, but I'm new enough to the game that, even though I feel like I have a handle on what I'm doing, I like the challenge.

When I have a dozen space stations and shuttles and tankers running around and bases and infrastructure logistics, I might change my mind at some point.

I clicked non mechjeb because I respect and relate to those who don't use it because they want it that way. (Knocked points for looking down on mechjeb users though. We're not superior, we're just just more interested in these particular aspects of the game than others.)

[mythic_fci]

I prefer non-MechJeb so as to keep my hand-flying skills fresh. However, I respect MechJeb as a learning tool. Hell, I used it to get my skill level to where it is now, starting off with full autopilot, then progressing to MechJeb making the nodes and me executing them by hand, then to me doing everything. It felt really gratifying to finally be able to dock with a station or head to the Mun on my own ;) Nowadays I still have MJ installed, but I usually use KER for Delta-V info and KAC to time my burns. I'll occasionally break out MechJeb for interplanetary spacecraft so I don't need to plot and/or sit through a 10-minute burn to Jool or Eeloo. Edited November 23, 2015 by FCISuperGuy