Microbes In Jupiter's Clouds

[AngelLestat]

First, none of those citations are academic or really scientific... its all layman's popsci type articles....

You dont know to read????

I need to quote my own words again?

"Learn to speak properly:

These are exactly the first results in google with "life jupiter clouds":"

"You can see that some pages reach the conclusion that life is unlikely and some others said that is possible.

But if their conclusion is to show negatives, they use "life as we understand it" or "life as we know it".

This is not about the articles!!! This is how to speak properly in science!!

Find a scientist article from an astrobiologics claiming that life is impossible there or in similar places, without the words: "life as we know it".

Easy, you will not find nobody so dumb to make such claim.

Thing is, it's not the first time same people are beating this dead horse. There are certain individuals here who like to push their wishful thinking as scientific theories, so people get tired of writing the same things all over again.

What happen? you dint find any paper claiming the same thing in so general aspect of life as you did? If you are right, why no scientist in the world use those words?

Even when scientist talk about "life as we know it" they are very carefull to not said things as impossible or cant happen, they said is unlikely..

So those are the lessons that you need to learn. But not sure if that is possible.

Astrobiology is something I endorse and I really don't talk out of my ass. These are the basics. Basics of chemical reactions. In gas phases it's physically impossible to have organized systems clumped up together, forming boundaries with equilibriums and solvated particles crawling around through the crowd.

Ok.. find a paper or article saying that is impossible.

[KerikBalm]

http://imgur.com/a/QDbyt#3

http://imgur.com/a/QDbyt#4

This is like trying to prove a negative... "life as we know it" is the only life we can talk about.

Everything else is simply speculation with no constraints.

Yes, there *could* be something, but if it would be very surprising.

There *could* be something living on Venus... or on the sun, or in jupiter, or in the sun...

When you throw out the contraints of life "as we know it", you can speculate about life being anywhere.

We can equally talk about the possibility of life in jupiter, as on mercury, or uranus.

When life as we know it is so unlikely(impossible) on jupiter, why is it that you talk about Jupiter? Why of all the bodies in the solar system should we talk about this one when it comes to life that is so strange that we can't say anything about the conditions it might tolerate?

Speculation of life on Titan is mostly not a case of life as we know it.... life with a non-polar solvant... yet it seems much much much more feasible than in the clouds of jupiter.

Most people are more than willing to speculate about life in exotic conditions... within bounds of what makes snese given our understanding of physics/chemistry, and complexity/organized systems/biology.

Its why we talk of life under the surface of enceladus/europa/mars/titan/pretty much any icy body that is large enough

But jupiter.... why?

[Bill Phil]

No, there are tiny solid crystals way up high in the atmosphere. Ammonium sulfide, ammonia, hydrogen sulfide, three dominant compounds in shifting equilibrium, both in the sense of chemical reaction and phase change from gas to solid. There are other compounds, too, but these three are most obvious.

Down below hydrogen and helium are getting more and more dense and hot, gradually turning from gas to supercritical fluid. No phase boundary.

Jupiter goes incredibly hot incredibly fast in its depths, so we can't expect anything complex coming up from its depths, if it comes at all.

You throw a probe built like a batysphere, encased in a tough reentry shield, into the planet. It slows down (incredible, enormous decelleration), deploys a parachute and takes measurements as it falls down.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Galileo_Probe_diagram.jpeg

If you knew anything about these things, you'd never stick to the classical ignorant "life as we know it". It's not about biology. It's about basic chemical/physical laws. Life can not form in gases. Period. End of discussion.

A large part of Jupiter is indistinguishable from a gas and a liquid. Although there is an amount of gas higher in its atmosphere, it's a small amount of the total mass of Jupiter.

Life may not be able to form in a gas, but most of Jupiter isn't a gas, it's both a gas and a liquid, simply a fluid.

And life can live in gases, at least. Which men's that it could happen. Although it's probably much less likely than life in a liquid.

And many of the elements required aren't there...

If only a gas giant like Bespin was close to us...

[RAINCRAFTER]

There is no surface on Jupiter. If you mean by surface of clouds, check these two graphs. First one is less detailed, second one focuses on the cloud layer.

http://media.web.britannica.com/eb-media/98/76398-050-BFAD2217.jpg

http://pages.uoregon.edu/jimbrau/BrauImNew/Chap11/7th/AT_7e_Figure_11_07.jpg

Oh, thank you for correcting me. This discussion makes no sense.

[Camacha]

No we don't know how life started, we also don't know all other alternatives for life, we know lots of the requirements as in that will not work.

You are likely to need an pretty concentrated soup of complex molecules for it. An drying puddle with mud could easy set this up. Far harder in an gas giant.

You are right. The problem is that we are so very accustomed to 'our' type of life. We simply do not know what other mechanisms nature might have figured out. Maybe it will not quite fit out current definition of life, but even our family tree of life manages to surprise us on a fairly regular basis. Within our setup we can try, mix and match to figure things out pretty well, but it is the only data set we have, which means we will never get results that are broadly applicable. Only when we find other life, preferably multiple trees (or radically differing branches) or somehow manage to prove other life it unprobable we can say anything more definitive.

Now if microbes could survive in the atmosphere life could have come from other planets, you would however probably need an sizable rock to survive reentry I think.

This is what I was thinking. Even if conditions are unfavorable for life to begin, they might be suitable for seeding.

[KerikBalm]

Oh, thank you for correcting me. This discussion makes no sense.

I thought this was common knowledge by now?

For a laugh, the 1953 intro to "War of the Worlds" ... before any interplanetary probes had been sent anywhere (by humans )

Interestingly.... they mention every planet (plus Pluto ) except Venus...

And we all know that Venus is a prime example for an inhospitable world... I suppose at the time, there may have been some lingering impression of fertile swamps under the clouds (although in 1958, the first measurements indicated it was really hot... I'd guess the scientific community had some expectaton of that when the movie was made http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1958ApJ...127....1M)

Even if there were a marginally habitable cloud layer in which it wasn't instant death, the turnover would likely destroy things to fast.

Going too low on Jupiter = death

[lajoswinkler]

Ok.. find a paper or article saying that is impossible.

Again and again, you're showing that you don't know how science works. No, I can not prove a negative. I can only acquire evidence to support a positive claim, something you can't do and I can.

A large part of Jupiter is indistinguishable from a gas and a liquid. Although there is an amount of gas higher in its atmosphere, it's a small amount of the total mass of Jupiter.

Life may not be able to form in a gas, but most of Jupiter isn't a gas, it's both a gas and a liquid, simply a fluid.

And life can live in gases, at least. Which men's that it could happen. Although it's probably much less likely than life in a liquid.

And many of the elements required aren't there...

If only a gas giant like Bespin was close to us...

Living in, and forming in, those are two incredibly different things.

I could imagine simple cells being suspended in percolating parts of the atmosphere of a planet where significant mist is found, but unless the nutrient influx and reproduction rate aren't high enough, critters would get eaten by the planet as they would gradually all fall down. But for something to form in such environment, that's a straight no.

As I've said, there are no phase boundaries in gas giants. The atmosphere just goes thicker and hotter, and gas giants are, by that criteria, a lot worse hell than Venus is. It quickly goes too hot for any remotely complex molecules to exist. It's not like with Earth oceans which have upwelling of nutrient rich stuff that's consumed by plankton. Anything going up from Jupiter's depths would be deprived of chemical energy, broken to the elements which would, upon cooling, spontaneously form simplest compounds.

[Bill Phil]

Again and again, you're showing that you don't know how science works. No, I can not prove a negative. I can only acquire evidence to support a positive claim, something you can't do and I can.

Living in, and forming in, those are two incredibly different things.

I could imagine simple cells being suspended in percolating parts of the atmosphere of a planet where significant mist is found, but unless the nutrient influx and reproduction rate aren't high enough, critters would get eaten by the planet as they would gradually all fall down. But for something to form in such environment, that's a straight no.

As I've said, there are no phase boundaries in gas giants. The atmosphere just goes thicker and hotter, and gas giants are, by that criteria, a lot worse hell than Venus is. It quickly goes too hot for any remotely complex molecules to exist. It's not like with Earth oceans which have upwelling of nutrient rich stuff that's consumed by plankton. Anything going up from Jupiter's depths would be deprived of chemical energy, broken to the elements which would, upon cooling, spontaneously form simplest compounds.

I know. I'm just saying that life can exist in a gas. Which means that it is possible to form in a gas if what's required is present. But extremely unlikely. Please notice the word "extremely".

However, you're ignoring something else here. Jupiter is not a gas giant. It's a fluid giant. Both a liquid and a gas. And we all know life can form in a liquid.

Yes, it is quite hot and there's a very high pressure. However, nothing is uniform. It's not all the same. Some spots are cooler, hotter, have a lower pressure, etc.

Granted, it is in no way likely, but it is a possibility, albeit a microscopic one.

[AngelLestat]

There are 2 kind of people, those who can think out of the box, and those who cant. All the discoveries are done it by the first type of people, they just need to have one foot inside and the other outside, because you need some solid ground to base your steps. Then the second people may read and learn from the first type; and thanks to them, their box expand.

Extremophiles include biota which are able to survive several kilometers below the ocean's surface near hydrothermal vents and microbes that thrive in highly acidic environments It is now known that extremophiles thrive in ice, boiling water, acid, the water core of nuclear reactors, salt crystals, toxic waste and in a range of other extreme habitats that were previously thought to be inhospitable for life.

Again and again, you're showing that you don't know how science works. No, I can not prove a negative. I can only acquire evidence to support a positive claim, something you can't do and I can.

What?? First I am not trying to prove anything, you are the "claim guy"... remember?

You are making claims in frames which nobody else in the world did!!

You are the one saying that life in jupiter clouds is impossible. "all kind of life"

And nobody else in the word speak of life as if carbon was the only possibility and even if they talk about "life as we know it", they never use words like "impossible", they use "unlikely"

Why?? first because they are not completely dumb, that would be translated as "the end of their career", second because we dont understand or study all possible bonds between all elements we know in all possible enviroments (pressure, temperature, mix).

Extremophiles already prove us wrong in many aspects, so what then? in that time (few years ago) we dint have basic chemisty law knowledge?

So the one who does not understand science is me? . . but.... all other scientist use the words that I use, and nobody use yours.

Why is that?

Edited July 13, 2015 by AngelLestat

[NFUN]

I know. I'm just saying that life can exist in a gas. Which means that it is possible to form in a gas if what's required is present. But extremely unlikely. Please notice the word "extremely".

However, you're ignoring something else here. Jupiter is not a gas giant. It's a fluid giant. Both a liquid and a gas. And we all know life can form in a liquid.

Yes, it is quite hot and there's a very high pressure. However, nothing is uniform. It's not all the same. Some spots are cooler, hotter, have a lower pressure, etc.

Granted, it is in no way likely, but it is a possibility, albeit a microscopic one.

It isn't just a "fluid", it is a supercritical fluid. Besides any random drops of liquid that might exist in the planet, Jupiter is either gaseous or composed of supercritical fluids, with some metallic hydrogen. If some spots in the interior are cooler, they will be metallic hydrogen or gaseous, not liquid. I would also dispute your claim that because life can exist in a gas it can form from gases.

I'd post a phase diagram for hydrogen, but they tend to be messy, and I can't find a good one.

Edited July 13, 2015 by NFUN

[SmallFatFetus]

Guys, please go read the positive forum movement and react accordingly before this (very interesting) thread is locked.

[windows_x_seven]

All of that because I typed "life as we know it".

Nice debate. I actually learned some stuff that I didn't know by reading it.

(but let's keep it civil, please)

[Brotoro]

Jupiter has a layer of clouds made of water (ice crystals higher up, water droplets lower down) where the temperature of the atmosphere crosses the freezing point of water. That's a substantial amount of liquid water.

Jupiter also has organic compounds in its atmosphere...they help provide those interesting colors, and are the result of photochemistry.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is life in the clouds...but I don't think I'd bet huge amounts of money on it.

[Geschosskopf]

I wouldn't be surprised if there is life in the clouds...but I don't think I'd bet huge amounts of money on it.

Organic chemestry just seems to happen by itself with little or no provocation as soon as conditions get within its range, just due to the nature of how the various elements like to combine with each other. If you can keep things within that range for long enough, you should start seeing life fairly soon. IIRC, they now think life started on Earth pretty much right after the surface stopped being molten. So it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that just about everything in tne universe has some form of "pond scum" on/in it somewhere. Who knows? We might even already have pictures of it, such as perhaps the orange streaks on Europa (although those could have many other causes). But it'll be a long time before we find out.

[KerikBalm]

So.... how about that possible life in Mercury's exosphere, eh?

[NFUN]

So.... how about that possible life in Mercury's exosphere, eh?

What kind of question is that? It exists, we know it exists, the only people who deny this are conspiracy nutters. Please, lets move on before they come here.

[Geschosskopf]

So.... how about that possible life in Mercury's exosphere, eh?

Dunno. I really don't think we're yet in any real position to define "life" in general terms. We're only in the "life as we know it" stage and even that category seems to expand every few months with new findings right here on Earth.

[Camacha]

There are 2 kind of people, those who can think out of the box, and those who cant. All the discoveries are done it by the first type of people, they just need to have one foot inside and the other outside, because you need some solid ground to base your steps. Then the second people may read and learn from the first type; and thanks to them, their box expand.

I like this one and think it is awfully close to reality. You need to be able to let go of what you know to see the new.

[KerikBalm]

We're only in the "life as we know it" stage and even that category seems to expand every few months with new findings right here on Earth.

Cite the last time that expanded.... happens every few months, shouldn't be hard to find a good example.

As to the other posts... utterly lacking content... might as well go take up crystal healing and homeopathy because its "outside of the box" and not 100% disproven.

[MinimumSky5]

Cite the last time that expanded.... happens every few months, shouldn't be hard to find a good example.

As to the other posts... utterly lacking content... might as well go take up crystal healing and homeopathy because its "outside of the box" and not 100% disproven.

Thinking outside the box is great, but just making stuff up and ignoring established science isn't.

[SciMan]

Agreed, there's "We found a tiny loophole in a law of physics after repeating an experiment 500 times", and then there's "ALL the old laws of physics are wrong despite nearly perfectly describing all we know because of this one minute discrepancy in a result of a single experiment".

The former is usually said by scientists and/or researchers. The latter is usually said by crackpots, somebody trying to sell something, or someone that's otherwise blinded to their own cognitive biases.

As far as microbes in Jupiter's clouds? I'd say they're almost certainly not present. ALMOST certain.

Good thing there's a bunch of moons near there that have conditions much more suitable for life. If we did ever find life in Jupiter's clouds I'd expect it to be quite similar to life found on one of Jupiter's moons, and therefore I would reasonably expect that life to have been transferred from the moon of Jupiter to Jupiter itself at some point.

Edited July 14, 2015 by SciMan

[Geschosskopf]

Cite the last time that expanded.... happens every few months, shouldn't be hard to find a good example.

Oh, just finding new types of extremophiles in more places where it was previously thought life couldn't exist. So nobody looked for it until recently. There's also the (highly disputed, possibly trashed) idea of critters with arsenic-based metabolisms, and more mundane things like the discovery that various more conventional lifeforms can still exist in space to some extent (like the bugs that survived a trip on the outside of the Shuttle, finding Earthly plankton living on the ISS windows, etc.).

[KerikBalm]

"Just finding new types of extremophiles in more places where it was previously thought life couldn't exist."

You must tell me of this time machine you have that appears to link to the 70's....

"There's also the (highly disputed, possibly trashed) idea of critters with arsenic-based metabolisms"

I believe you mean DNA with arsenic in place of phosphorus... and its not possibly trashed, but definitively trashed.

I knew this one would come up again... it really really really really needs to die. It just ain't so.

The initial claim gets a lot of fanfare in all the media... the disproval gets almost no attention... and people keep on believing it.

"conventional lifeforms can still exist in space to some extent (like the bugs that survived a trip on the outside of the Shuttle, finding Earthly plankton living on the ISS windows"

See the tardigrade thread... or the endospore discussion here...

They aren't really alive per se... they can be revived...

The knowledge that they could survive dessication for a decade or more comes from 1998 or earlier... 17 years ago... still waiting for the every few months news.

Theres even older claims before the 1950's of partial(extremely partial) resussication after over 100 years of dessication.

As for the plankton... that was grossly misrepresented...

They detected DNA... not living plankton.

Many of the rockets launched to the ISS were launched from the coast.... might there be a connection here? hmmmmm????

Lets not jump to unfounded conclusions...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericmack/2014/08/21/nasa-russia-squabble-over-international-space-station-sea-plankton-claim/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alejandro-rojas/german-space-agency-chime_b_5846522.html

[AngelLestat]

As to the other posts... utterly lacking content... might as well go take up crystal healing and homeopathy because its "outside of the box" and not 100% disproven.

So thinking out of the box for you is that? Well if you never was out, how can you understand what we are talking about.

Also I said one foot inside on solid ground, the other outside, that is the only way to advance on science.

If you dont do that, is impossible, not even by error or accident.

[KerikBalm]

No... we love to speculate in the lab, and think "outside of the box"... but you do need that "one foot inside the box"... it needs to be grounded in reality.

Some of the speculation with the head of my lab gets pretty crazy...

Our lab works with mitochondria - we may speculate about mitochondria and nuclear cross-talk, mito involvement in viral responses, conditions that a virus infecting a mitochondria might evolve... how to transform mitochondria...

We have some proteins that we know to affect mitochondrial RNA levels, we've speculated on multiple possible ways it does it (so far we've only really definitively ruled out a couple), etc

But we never start to speculate (for instance, making something up right now) that mitochondria can form a network by generating gravity waves, to form a consciousness, and that it it the collective mitochondria that think, and not our brain, and that if we think really hard we can focus these gravity waves to effect telekinesis.... that just ignores everything we know... its not out of the box thinking.... its just plain stupid.

At some point, you have to stop and ask yourself... is there any evidence that supports your speculation?

Is it 100% certain that no form of life whatsoever could be in the clouds of Jupiter? No.

Is there any reason to suspect that there is a significant chance that life might be there? given what we know.... No.