Is playing KSP cheating?

[MarvinKitFox]

Wait, wait, wait. In that, if your spacecraft explodes, you don't die!!!!!!! CHEATER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So strap a stick of dynamite to your head, and link the trigger to your KSP. If jeb dies, you die.

[monstah]

Ha ha, best topic in a while.

I think I'm gonna join the "no timewarp EVER" mentality. The way I play my game, I can count how many times I've left Kerbin SOI in 700h of game. This will probably bring the count down even more.

[TimePeriod]

Because seriously, you can't cheat in a single player game.

(Please ensure that your tin foil hat is secured in place, that your seat-belt is locked in a forward position and that your lunatic-meter is below 'Whackjob'-levels. Have a pleasant flight.

You: But TimePeriod, what you are saying is heresy! Sure you can cheat!

Me: Yes, you are indeed correct! You can cheat but who are you cheating?

You: I am cheating the game of course! I am playing the game in a different way compared to everybody el...Ohh

Me: *Ding Ding* We have a winner! You are correct again! You are only cheating yourself!

Me: For all its worth, there is no definitive way of saying that you are cheating in a video-game about little green men, in 1:10th scale of our own universe.

You: But TP! It is still cheating!

Me: No it is not. You are in no way that you are breaking any pre-defined rules found on any list SQUAD has ever announced, there is no "de-facto" way of playing a singleplayer game.

Me: It is all a matter of perspective. You are making a concious choice of playing this game in a different way, compared to everybody else but since nobody else is playing against you, how can it be cheating?

You: That...That makes no sense! Your reason and sentence's are flawed!

Me: (Short pause)

Me: If I choose to play chess with myself, only to narrowly beat myself using a last ditch effort by my Queen, how much of a victory do I gain? None, there's no victory to be had. There is no competition, there is no unfair advantage, there is no right nor wrong.

Me: The same core principle is applied to this video-game! Unless a predefined set of rules has been applied, which you have agreed to adhere to, there is no way of telling if its cheating or modding.

You: That makes some sense but what do I do then, when I think something is cheating?

Me: You abolish your entire concept of cheating and replace it with modding or experimenting.

I'm TimePeriod and I was your pilot today on the crazytrain. Have a nice day.

Edited July 22, 2015 by TimePeriod

[Red Iron Crown]

Merged in another thread, let's try to keep the general cheating talk to one thread, please.

[Starhawk]

Yeah but dude's not getting anywhere until he adapts the MOAR STRUTS attitude.

I must disagree.

Several hundred struts fly on every Falcon 9 vehicle,

Sounds like they've got MOAR STRUTS mastered. Good thing they don't have part count limitations.

Happy landings!

p.s. Every time I wake up breathing, I feel like I've cheated.

[GarrisonChisholm]

Map View is cheating.

Using a monitor is cheating.

[Mad Rocket Scientist]

So strap a stick of dynamite to your head, and link the trigger to your KSP. If jeb dies, you die.

CHEATER!!!!! Being blown up by dynamite is different from dying in a spaceship crash!!

- - - Updated - - -

Using a monitor is cheating.

Using a computer not installed in a spacecraft is cheating.

[Jett_Quasar]

Cheating! Are you crazy? There's NOTHING you can do in KSP that could be remotely considered CHEATING!!!!!!!!!

All KSP images have been moved here.

JR

Edited September 28, 2015 by Jolly_Roger

[pxi]

Having just bought some new hardware in anticipation of Win10, I feel I must ask a pertinent question.

Is upgrading your hardware to get access to higher partcounts a form of pay-to-win?

[Red Iron Crown]

Is upgrading your hardware to get access to higher partcounts a form of pay-to-win?

Only if you are buying that new hardware from Squad.

[Moesly_Armlis]

I can haz computer hardwarez from Squad?

Does it come with a kerbal or a chimp?

Edited July 22, 2015 by MoeslyArmlis

[Xavven]

Haha Yes, I get the joke. Since there have been a couple of serious comments on this thread though, I thought I'd throw in my 2 funds from a non-joking standpoint.

I've come to realize there are two distinct groups (maybe more) on the forum: those who take the position that KSP is a single-player, sandbox game in which the concept of cheating does not apply, and those who take the position that regardless of it being single-player, KSP has rules which can be broken, which qualifies as cheating.

If your goal in KSP is to make your own rules, customize your game, and play to have fun, then I can see it from the first crowd's point of view - there really isn't "cheating" in this. Just "having fun" and "not having fun". Does hack gravity make the game more fun? Then use it. If not? Don't use it. Cheating is not a concept.

If you see KSP as a series of challenges to overcome, then I can see it from the second crowd's point of view. Fun comes from the feeling of accomplishment. The greater the challenge and difficulty, the greater the feeling of accomplishment (and fun) from overcoming it. So you can see that the achievement is diminished and cheapened by circumventing the game mechanic that makes an accomplishment difficult to begin with. For example, getting to Moho is hard because you have to pack a lot of delta-v and TWR. The challenge is in designing a craft that meets those requirements. If you use the infinite fuel cheat, then all difficulty is removed because you don't have to put much of an effort at all into the design. Therefore, the accomplishment is cheapened, and thus, the player has no fun.

I believe it is the second crowd -- the achievement oriented crowd -- that is asking most of the "is XYZ cheating?" questions. Like, "hey, I went to Moho but I used a bunch of reaction wheels -- does that cheapen the experience or do you think the central theme of the challenge was overcome?" The first crowd, while presenting a perfectly valid point of view, is actually playing the game from an entirely different perspective and it's like comparing apples and oranges. The "nothing is cheating" answer is not a concept for the achievement crowd, just like "anything is cheating" is not a concept for the sandbox crowd.

Did I hit the mark at all?

[monstah]

-snip-

Did I hit the mark at all?

I think so; however, in my opinion, if the second crowd is all about the challenge, then by all means make challenges! We have a challenge subforum here, and challenges, unlike KSP itself, have actual rules. Breaking them is cheaty. Adjusting a slider on a customization menu (as opposed to, say, a cheat menu like many games feature) is not cheaty, it's customizing.

The game doesn't mention any rules. There are just physical laws, but even those are more like guidelines when the game opens up for modding (lo-grav dual berettas 1 on 1 duels on Counter Strike back in the time, anyone? That was just a console command!).

[Accelerando]

I've come to realize there are two distinct groups (maybe more) on the forum: those who take the position that KSP is a single-player, sandbox game in which the concept of cheating does not apply, and those who take the position that regardless of it being single-player, KSP has rules which can be broken, which qualifies as cheating.

...

Did I hit the mark at all?

No, by a significant margin.

To be more precise, achivement-oriented groups and more generally enjoyment-oriented groups of players are not necessarily mutually exclusive. It's perhaps true that the achievements-oriented players tend to ask the majority of "is X cheating?" questions, but what people argue about in these threads, which forms the basis of contempt for the same threads, is, to my knowledge, whether or not it's okay to apply a certain definition of "fun" universally - "fun" based on achievements, "fun" based on exploding rockets, etc.

Personally I set rules in my game (when I used to play) for myself. But I don't dictate to other people what rules they should play by. I could care less if someone plays "sandbox" or "achievements", just don't try to force me to do one or the other. The point of contention, at least historically, has been, "Does doing X thing in your singleplayer game make it a less worthy game experience for everyone?" with emphasis on that point, because various parties would make some big stink about how, to use the most common example, using MechJeb means you are an inferior pilot and, moreover, you are playing an inherently less "fun" (by a similarly narrow definition of the term as that which gets thrown around in the "realism vs. fun" garbage piles) and thus less valid game. Whether someone plays with infinite fuel all the time or restricts themselves entirely to Tier 1 parts in RSS is irrelevant to me so long as nobody's trying to force or shame people for playing their preferred way.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Accelerando

[Landwalker]

Most people cheat in real life*. Therefore cheating is accurate.

[* on an amateur basis, viz speeding, adultery, etc. (common misdemeanors) or professionally, as politicians, lawyers or accountants (who specifically 'game' the system). Don't even mention sports!]

As an accountant, this made me a little sad finding out that there are people who think we're in the same category of professional dishonesty as politicians (well-deserved) and lawyers (not really well-deserved).

Edited July 22, 2015 by Landwalker

[keeper]

So its better to game life than cheat a game? or... wait a minute...

[Xavven]

No, by a significant margin.

...

The point of contention, at least historically, has been, "Does doing X thing in your singleplayer game make it a less worthy game experience for everyone?" with emphasis on that point, because various parties would make some big stink about how, to use the most common example, using MechJeb means you are an inferior pilot and, moreover, you are playing an inherently less "fun" (by a similarly narrow definition of the term as that which gets thrown around in the "realism vs. fun" garbage piles) and thus less valid game.

...

I actually I agree with that and think it's another dimension to add to the cheating argument (not a refutation of my analysis). The achievement crowd comes off as imposing rules on the general enjoyment crowd. I really agree that the achievement crowd shouldn't try to impose their "rules" on the general enjoyment crowd. By the same token, the general enjoyment crowd really isn't the target of the discussion but probably sees these threads and takes offense anyway, as though their method of playing the game is "wrong" somehow. I think the general enjoyment crowd shouldn't take offense.

Maybe achievers should just ask other achievers about their "is it cheating?" opinions and the general enjoyment crowd can just ignore those threads? I don't mean that to sound like, "shut up and go away", but rather I mean to acknowledge that general-enjoyment is a different playstyle that really isn't the target of the discussion for the achievers. I honestly don't think that posting on a "is it cheating" thread with a response like, "there is no such thing as cheating in a single player game" will actually change a person's playstyle from achievement-oriented to general-enjoyment but instead just doesn't help the poster answer his/her question. Likewise, achievers posting crap like "you use MJ so you aren't playing the game correctly" is completely unwelcome as well.

Urgh... TBH this community can just be frustrating some times.

[Esme]

Virtually.

[pxi]

I'd ask you all to consider a couple of real-world examples of achievements.

Climbing Everest - Most people do it with the aid of oxygen, some do it unaided. Are those that use oxygen cheating?

Sailing around the world - most people that do this use navigational aids such as GPS, weather forecasts etc. Of course, you could just use the stars. Are you cheating if you don't navigate by stars alone? Multi-hull ships are more stable in water. Are they cheating? A multi-person crew is obviously better than a single person. Is a single-hull ship, crewed by one person, who navigates by stars alone the only true way to circumnavigate the earth by ship?

All of us have a sense of what is trivial to achieve in KSP, as well as what is extremely difficult. The only time I feel the word cheating is justified, is when the person lies about how they did the thing they did. This is a game about achieving goals you set yourself. I celebrate anyone in this community that raises the bar. When that bar is then used as a stick to beat others, that's where I draw the line.