A Thread for Writers to talk about Writing

[SaturnianBlue]

*sigh*

Well, it's a bit hard to follow in a lot of ways. I lose track of who has which word balloon color. (I wonder if people do the same thing in my story sometime--so I do try to use the name-labeled portraits and have people call each other by name when I can) Also the plot doesn't really have a strong enough hook. Jeb has a master plan to explore space and Mort is against it... OK, a classic setup, I know because I used it. But what does it mean? What consequences does any of this have for the main characters? These aren't things you can just explain with a couple of words in a panel--you have to give your characters enough depth for them to stick in the readers' minds and then the readers will care about them as much as you do. And I know you're going to ask how to do all this, but I can't tell you. No one can. My recommendation is to simplify and focus your story on one or two--no, one key theme and build everything clearly around that. Once you see from reader feedback etc. that it's working, then maybe you're ready for something more complex.

Do you think something like the newest entry helps with that a bit? I tried to follow up on the tips about formatting, and in the description on top I put the color code (to some extent). I gave my characters some reason to exist and also make them less one sided.

[0111narwhalz]

Considering that the characters currently occupied by the orangesuits are going to be very prominent over the course of the story, it might be worth changing them. Urgh, now I have to find a convenient persistence file from which to get names. It feels nice to have authentic names with "real" kerbals associated to them and not merely an artificial name generator.

[Mister Dilsby]

Do you think something like the newest entry helps with that a bit? I tried to follow up on the tips about formatting, and in the description on top I put the color code (to some extent). I gave my characters some reason to exist and also make them less one sided.

It does, but I wouldn't make a habit of sitting them down in a meeting to make that stuff come through. In a well-constructed story character, motivation, etc. should come out in every scene.

- - - Updated - - -

Considering that the characters currently occupied by the orangesuits are going to be very prominent over the course of the story, it might be worth changing them. Urgh, now I have to find a convenient persistence file from which to get names. It feels nice to have authentic names with "real" kerbals associated to them and not merely an artificial name generator.

If you had the orangesuits in mind for the story, and you want to tell the story with those characters, you don't necessarily have to change. Your story might work with the familiar characters--your take on them doesn't have to be groundbreaking and unique (though something in your story should be) -- after all, this is fanfic we're talking about, and there is something of an accepted fanon for how the core four behave. But you do run the risk of it not being interesting because everyone has already seen those characters so many times, yes. The risk in using whitesuits is that since they're unfamiliar to readers, you really have to grab us with them right away or we'll not be able to tell them apart, and lose interest. I've seen stories fail in both ways, and succeed both ways, so good luck

[0111narwhalz]

Thanks for all the feedback! I think I'll likely keep Jeb & Co in, simply since I'm kind of using their basic archetypes. They're slightly changed, but close enough for rocket science. I mean, why bother making a daredevil-kinda pilot when you already have Jeb? Sure, my Jeb hides behind the shield when Bill totes out his prototypes, but who wouldn't? The space program can only take so much crazy on one ship.

[steuben]

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/138341-Tales-From-the-Swan-Last-Flight-of-a-Sow

I'm trying something different from my usual style... not sure how it works or if I have to change my formatting at all. I had either "Black Sunrise" or "Sacrifice" by Audiomachine in mind when assembling the time line section.

[0111narwhalz]

New chapter on Warped Stars. I've taken the tips into acount. It's also a bit longer to make up for the wait.

[Mister Dilsby]

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/138341-Tales-From-the-Swan-Last-Flight-of-a-Sow

I'm trying something different from my usual style... not sure how it works or if I have to change my formatting at all. I had either "Black Sunrise" or "Sacrifice" by Audiomachine in mind when assembling the time line section.

It works great for a mission report format, but even with the embellishments you've put in I don't know that I'd call it a story--there isn't enough of your characters in there for them to come through. The timeline format could work very well as a device within a story to establish the details of a mission without a lot of, "All right, Bob, as you know we're scheduled to make the rendezvous at 08:30" -- "Right you are, Bill! And look, here comes our ion probe, right on schedule!"

New chapter on Warped Stars. I've taken the tips into acount. It's also a bit longer to make up for the wait.

Good, these have been really short. You're doing a great job establishing each scene (love the kerblets!) but the basic dramatic rule is that 'in every scene, something must happen that moves the plot forward and can't be undone'. You definitely did this in your last installment

---

And a Question for comix readers: we all have a lot of different word balloon styles. Some of us give a different color to each major character, some of us color them by occupation. In most comics, of course, all the balloons are the same color (white)...but we're working with characters who are for the most part visually identical, and every little bit helps.

So--what styles work for you? Do you ever get lost reading my work and forget who's saying what? Can you tell the characters apart consistently, especially the whitesuits? I get especially concerned about this as the story matures, and minor characters continue to accumulate. For example, I think all six Kerbals in the jury box in Bill and Jeb's trial have appeared before and most have had speaking parts!

[SaturnianBlue]

It does, but I wouldn't make a habit of sitting them down in a meeting to make that stuff come through. In a well-constructed story character, motivation, etc. should come out in every scene.

I've tried to do that in the Series 4 finale, and is there anything else to note?

[Mister Dilsby]

I've tried to do that in the Series 4 finale, and is there anything else to note?

I notice you ask for a critiques quite often, so that means you're dedicated to becoming a better writer which is great! So here's some homework questions

--what narrative goals were you trying to accomplish, i.e. what did you want to tell the reader, what did you want the reader to feel?

--what did you do to make readers care about your characters?

--what is the main conflict in the story right now, and what are you doing to build towards a conclusion?

Now the hard ones:

--of the above elements, what do you think worked the best in doing what you set out to do?

--of the above elements, what didn't work? what do you think might not have landed with the readers?

--what did you want to do in your story, but didn't know how?

Your own answers to the above, and maybe some discussion around them, will help you a lot more than me telling you what I think you did right or wrong.

[SaturnianBlue]

Hmmm.

I wanted to somewhat side with Jeb, but have empathy for Mort. I wanted to tell readers that both sides aren't all good or bad, Jeb being somewhat reckless yet trying to get the KSP to wrangle in science, while Mort would partially agree with that, yet he's very disappointed and fears the safety of his crew. I wanted to give the newer characters better contrast.

-I tried to push Val's character forward while noting some plans, and tried to give them some character in this and earlier entries to make them be cared.

-The main conflict is Jeb vs Mort, but Kerbals vs Asteroids will slowly make a return. I'm trying to get it solved by slowly developing the arguments for each side and the repricussions if either side makes dominant.

-The tense last-minute argument worked very well in bringing Mort's other side forward, and somewhat for the other characters. Drawing some characters may have distinguish characters.

-I don't really think the finale helped much with developing Wernher or Bobaks character forward, except sort of giving them a bit of a "leader" thing difined. Perhaps some readers who like fast going finales may not have found Val's entry particularly interesting. Subeth's character isn't really perfect yet, aside from still being friendly but perhaps more serious vs Bob.

-I didn't exactly know how to bring Wernher/Mission controls characters much definition in the finale, and since the crew of "MVP" (Mission Very Profitable/Possible) is probably going to have a main focus. The relatively fun/comedy parts that most of Series 4 only really had one line.

Edited November 8, 2015 by SaturnianBlue

[Starhawk]

And a Question for comix readers: we all have a lot of different word balloon styles. Some of us give a different color to each major character, some of us color them by occupation. In most comics, of course, all the balloons are the same color (white)...but we're working with characters who are for the most part visually identical, and every little bit helps.

So--what styles work for you? Do you ever get lost reading my work and forget who's saying what? Can you tell the characters apart consistently, especially the whitesuits? I get especially concerned about this as the story matures, and minor characters continue to accumulate. For example, I think all six Kerbals in the jury box in Bill and Jeb's trial have appeared before and most have had speaking parts!

I have had some difficulty in some of the comix fine graphic novels in discerning who's saying what.

It always seems clear in yours. You do a very good job of putting in the necessary cues for the reader.

Happy landings!

[Mad Rocket Scientist]

[...]

And a Question for comix readers: we all have a lot of different word balloon styles. Some of us give a different color to each major character, some of us color them by occupation. In most comics, of course, all the balloons are the same color (white)...but we're working with characters who are for the most part visually identical, and every little bit helps.

So--what styles work for you? Do you ever get lost reading my work and forget who's saying what? Can you tell the characters apart consistently, especially the whitesuits? I get especially concerned about this as the story matures, and minor characters continue to accumulate. For example, I think all six Kerbals in the jury box in Bill and Jeb's trial have appeared before and most have had speaking parts!

Well, I couldn't tell who has what color of speech bubble, but I'm still able to tell them apart in your comik. It helps that you have a different style of speech for each of them, and of course, that the bubbles are different colors.

[Mister Dilsby]

Hmmm.

I wanted to somewhat side with Jeb, but have empathy for Mort. I wanted to tell readers that both sides aren't all good or bad, Jeb being somewhat reckless yet trying to get the KSP to wrangle in science, while Mort would partially agree with that, yet he's very disappointed and fears the safety of his crew. I wanted to give the newer characters better contrast.

-I tried to push Val's character forward while noting some plans, and tried to give them some character in this and earlier entries to make them be cared.

-The main conflict is Jeb vs Mort, but Kerbals vs Asteroids will slowly make a return. I'm trying to get it solved by slowly developing the arguments for each side and the repricussions if either side makes dominant.

-The tense last-minute argument worked very well in bringing Mort's other side forward, and somewhat for the other characters. Drawing some characters may have distinguish characters.

-I don't really think the finale helped much with developing Wernher or Bobaks character forward, except sort of giving them a bit of a "leader" thing difined. Perhaps some readers who like fast going finales may not have found Val's entry particularly interesting. Subeth's character isn't really perfect yet, aside from still being friendly but perhaps more serious vs Bob.

-I didn't exactly know how to bring Wernher/Mission controls characters much definition in the finale, and since the crew of "MVP" (Mission Very Profitable/Possible) is probably going to have a main focus. The relatively fun/comedy parts that most of Series 4 only really had one line.

Ok, good start The Mort vs. Jeb conflict is a bit thin. It does come through that Mort cares, which is interesting, but really each character just comes out and says 'this is what I care about and this is what I want.' We didn't see how they got to this point. We didn't see them take actions that show us how they feel--which is much more effective than them telling us. I haven't looked backwards in my story to be sure, but I hope that if you go back and read my Mort from the beginning of Order Zero you'll see what I mean. Character development doesn't happen in one page; it is a process

val: her log is just a news report. It doesn't tell us anything about her except that she's so good she won't be flying many missions. If you want to develop her you need to have her do things that show how she's different form everyone else.

i agree the dialogue between Jeb and Mort is the strongest part of the episode. You know how much I love a dramatic argument in the middle of a countdown Again, this will have more effect as the characters take action and show their depth.

And you're right, there's not much going on here for other characters like Wernher. That can be OK--a reader can only pay attention to so much. I'd recommend you really work on developing your one or two main characters, THEN you can worry about the others. Take two or at most three characters and give them something to do. Then SHOW us who they are via the ACTIONS try take. Did I ever say out loud 'Kenlie is kind of a screwup, but he's brave and loyal, and is pretty good at his job when it comes down to it."? No, but if I did my job right over the last few chapter everyone knows that anyway

ps sorry for any typos and poor formatting, am on iPhone in airport- biz trip to Carolinas.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Kuzzter

[SaturnianBlue]

Ok, good start The Mort vs. Jeb conflict is a bit thin. It does come through that Mort cares, which is interesting, but really each character just comes out and says 'this is what I care about and this is what I want.' We didn't see how they got to this point. We didn't see them take actions that show us how they feel--which is much more effective than them telling us. I haven't looked backwards in my story to be sure, but I hope that if you go back and read my Mort from the beginning of Order Zero you'll see what I mean. Character development doesn't happen in one page; it is a process

val: her log is just a news report. It doesn't tell us anything about her except that she's so good she won't be flying many missions. If you want to develop her you need to have her do things that show how she's different form everyone else.

i agree the dialogue between Jeb and Mort is the strongest part of the episode. You know how much I love a dramatic argument in the middle of a countdown Again, this will have more effect as the characters take action and show their depth.

And you're right, there's not much going on here for other characters like Wernher. That can be OK--a reader can only pay attention to so much. I'd recommend you really work on developing your one or two main characters, THEN you can worry about the others. Take two or at most three characters and give them something to do. Then SHOW us who they are via the ACTIONS try take. Did I ever say out loud 'Kenlie is kind of a screwup, but he's brave and loyal, and is pretty good at his job when it comes down to it."? No, but if I did my job right over the last few chapter everyone knows that anyway

ps sorry for any typos and poor formatting, am on iPhone in airport- biz trip to Carolinas.

Thanks! I am planning to make Mort take... Desperate measures... I really didnt want to make characters one sided, which is why I add this side, but I'm pretty sure keeping him mostly an adversary will work best.

I'm mainly planning on the crew as the main characters, so I guess they should be developed the most .

I'm not exactly sure how to improve on Val's character for now, and I'm not really sure when I can get to developing her. I'd wonder, should more characters be introduced? Right now I'm saying no, since I've already got plenty to focus and use.

Also, A question to comic writers/all writers: How long do you like making each entry/pg/entry/post? I prefer 2-6, as it helps provide different types of entries, while keeping things alright, since I average around 3-4. Also, how long do you make your seasons/chapters/volumes?

[steuben]

Also, A question to comic writers/all writers: How long do you like making each entry/pg/entry/post? I prefer 2-6, as it helps provide different types of entries, while keeping things alright, since I average around 3-4. Also, how long do you make your seasons/chapters/volumes?

As long as they need to be. I don't force chapter breaks, they usually find me. Same with climaxes, the moment I had finished the chapter I knew I had hit the Shakespearean climax, and the same number of words later the story ended.

Though if the chapter is running very short and the next one looks like it will as well, I'll weld the two together, buff down the seam, and give it a good coat of paint. (Disney needed to do that with "Frozen", you can still feel the weld marks. Same with "Good Omens" by Pratchett and Gaiman.)

If it is running just a bit short it is sometime possible to stretch them a bit. That's a bit easier in the visual formats, like Ralph Bakshi said, "If episode was short we just kept webhead swinging a bit longer to pad it out."

[SaturnianBlue]

[quote name='Kuzzter']Ok, good start :) The Mort vs. Jeb conflict is a bit thin. It does come through that Mort cares, which is interesting, but really each character just comes out and says 'this is what I care about and this is what I want.' We didn't see how they got to this point. We didn't see them take actions that show us how they feel--which is much more effective than them telling us. I haven't looked backwards in my story to be sure, but I hope that if you go back and read my Mort from the beginning of Order Zero you'll see what I mean. Character development doesn't happen in one page; it is a process :)

val: her log is just a news report. It doesn't tell us anything about her except that she's so good she won't be flying many missions. If you want to develop her you need to have her do things that show how she's different form everyone else.

i agree the dialogue between Jeb and Mort is the strongest part of the episode. You know how much I love a dramatic argument in the middle of a countdown :) Again, this will have more effect as the characters take action and show their depth.

And you're right, there's not much going on here for other characters like Wernher. That can be OK--a reader can only pay attention to so much. :) I'd recommend you really work on developing your one or two main characters, THEN you can worry about the others. Take two or at most three characters and give them something to do. Then SHOW us who they are via the ACTIONS try take. Did I ever say out loud 'Kenlie is kind of a screwup, but he's brave and loyal, and is pretty good at his job when it comes down to it."? No, but if I did my job right over the last few chapter everyone knows that anyway :)

ps sorry for any typos and poor formatting, am on iPhone in airport- biz trip to Carolinas.[/QUOTE]

So I've tried to build on the character development bits not directly stating things, but more or less taking direct actions. Mort and Jeb are the main characters I'm trying to build on, with the rest of the mission crew also being somewhat developed. I suppose they'll be established after quite a while (maybe the whole chapter, though Mort and Jeb will probably have more development later on later too). Of course, Mort blowing up rockets and stuff was a little bit ridiculous, so I think I might want to tone that down and make it a little bit more reasonable.

I would like a little bit of feedback on the color choices for my character bubbles, and how to get people talking on the novels too, since I do leave a few things to give the reader answer, and not just here. Edited November 16, 2015 by SaturnianBlue

[KSK]

[quote name='steuben']As long as they need to be. I don't force chapter breaks, they usually find me. Same with climaxes, the moment I had finished the chapter I knew I had hit the Shakespearean climax, and the same number of words later the story ended.

Though if the chapter is running very short and the next one looks like it will as well, I'll weld the two together, buff down the seam, and give it a good coat of paint. (Disney needed to do that with "Frozen", you can still feel the weld marks. Same with "Good Omens" by Pratchett and Gaiman.)

If it is running just a bit short it is sometime possible to stretch them a bit. That's a bit easier in the visual formats, like Ralph Bakshi said, "If episode was short we just kept webhead swinging a bit longer to pad it out."[/QUOTE]

My chapters are normally somewhere between 3500 to 5000 words, sometimes a bit longer if they need to be. I'll normally include sections from different points of view in the same chapter to help with the word count (I like to post a decent chunk of text at a time) but I won't force it. A couple of recent chapters of [i]First Flight[/i] were originally intended to be stuck together but it would have ended up being so lopsided that I decided to post it as two separate pieces.

[CalculusWarrior]

[quote name='KSK']My chapters are normally somewhere between 3500 to 5000 words, sometimes a bit longer if they need to be. I'll normally include sections from different points of view in the same chapter to help with the word count (I like to post a decent chunk of text at a time) but I won't force it. A couple of recent chapters of [i]First Flight[/i] were originally intended to be stuck together but it would have ended up being so lopsided that I decided to post it as two separate pieces.[/QUOTE]

Chiming in here, I echo the 'as long as needs be' answer steuben gave earlier. Before writing each chapter, I have a section outline which ties together all the things I want to have happen over the next series of chapters. Then, I split that up along lines which make sense to get chapter outlines. Finally, I write the chapters themselves, adding a bit filler material along the way when I think of it. It may not necessarily be important for the overall plot itself, but it keeps the chapters interesting and more entertaining than just a series of plot points being listed out to the viewer.

[KSK]

For me, the filler (aka 'the good stuff') is the hard part that takes all the time. I work roughly the same way that CalculusWarrior does and yeah - a chapter outline, no matter how detailed, is not a chapter. Or not one that I think anyone would want to read. :)

[Mister Dilsby]

[quote name='SaturnianBlue']So I've tried to build on the character development bits not directly stating things, but more or less taking direct actions. Mort and Jeb are the main characters I'm trying to build on, with the rest of the mission crew also being somewhat developed. I suppose they'll be established after quite a while (maybe the whole chapter, though Mort and Jeb will probably have more development later on later too). Of course, Mort blowing up rockets and stuff was a little bit ridiculous, so I think I might want to tone that down and make it a little bit more reasonable.[/QUOTE]
I think that's wise. The character stuff worked better in the last update--you're not trying to force it, you're having them do things in their own way at that makes them doing those things much more interesting. Mort blowing up rockets was truly strange, and inconsistent with the rules of the world you'd established. When you do that, it tends to take the reader right out of your story--readers keep coming back and getting deeper into it when you build up their trust, with consistency. Your world becomes a familiar place to them, comfortable, they know it. Betray the reader's trust at your peril :)

[quote]I would like a little bit of feedback on the color choices for my character bubbles, and how to get people talking on the novels too, since I do leave a few things to give the reader answer, and not just here.[/quote]
For the bubbles--honestly I've read every comic you posted and I think I may have typed almost as many words about them as you have, Blue, but I couldn't for the life of me tell which colors belong to whom without looking. (nor can I remember for [I]any [/I]comic where individual characters all have different colors) I don't expect people to remember that in my comic either, which is why I try not to go too long without a portrait nametag or the name being mentioned in text, e.g. "Hey, Tedus!" Also I don't assign individual colors: all anyone has to do is remember who has what job, whether they're male or female, and orange suit or not, and you can narrow it down very quickly. But again, even for my comic which has a very big and dedicated fanbase I don't count on everyone remembering that when a female speaks with a blue balloon and it's not accented, it's Lisa. The person finding a Kerbfleet comic for the very first time has to be able to understand it, or that person may not come back a second time. Edited November 17, 2015 by Kuzzter

[steuben]

[url]http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/139996-Tales-From-the-Swan-A-Turtle-Stops-Flying?p=2304090[/url]

Looking at the ground bound white shirts in this one. I should really get one of those outfits, black pants, white shirt, slim black tie, rectangle thin rim glasses optional.

I think I might need to work on my radio traffic. It seems easy to get lost in that. I think it is consistent both internally and close to real life.

[SaturnianBlue]

[quote name='Kuzzter']I think that's wise. The character stuff worked better in the last update--you're not trying to force it, you're having them do things in their own way at that makes them doing those things much more interesting. Mort blowing up rockets was truly strange, and inconsistent with the rules of the world you'd established. When you do that, it tends to take the reader right out of your story--readers keep coming back and getting deeper into it when you build up their trust, with consistency. Your world becomes a familiar place to them, comfortable, they know it. Betray the reader's trust at your peril :)


For the bubbles--honestly I've read every comic you posted and I think I may have typed almost as many words about them as you have, Blue, but I couldn't for the life of me tell which colors belong to whom without looking. (nor can I remember for [I]any [/I]comic where individual characters all have different colors) I don't expect people to remember that in my comic either, which is why I try not to go too long without a portrait nametag or the name being mentioned in text, e.g. "Hey, Tedus!" Also I don't assign individual colors: all anyone has to do is remember who has what job, whether they're male or female, and orange suit or not, and you can narrow it down very quickly. But again, even for my comic which has a very big and dedicated fanbase I don't count on everyone remembering that when a female speaks with a blue balloon and it's not accented, it's Lisa. The person finding a Kerbfleet comic for the very first time has to be able to understand it, or that person may not come back a second time.[/QUOTE]

I'm gradually toning down Morts anger for now, and making him a bit passive and still caring for lives, but I wanted to keep my Mort a little bit darker and somewhat shadier at the same time. The cutting coms off is probably going to be an important piece of plot for now. Rockomax is a little bit of an interesting thing I'd love to try and put in cleanly while keeping the person to person tone there nor introduce too many Kerbals at once, something that might prove somewhat difficult.
As for the format, I've given it a bit of standardization, and a color code for reading.

[Mister Dilsby]

Oooh boy this new forum is confusing--I do hope all the writers make it back OK and continue to put up great content. I don't know how important Tags will be in the new system, but I put them on my fiction threads anyway and might recommend others do the same, to let people find our stuff more easily. All my stories are tagged 'kerbfleet' and 'graphic novel'. In as much as these are also Mission Reports I tagged E:O0 with 'eve return' and D,OB! with 'duna'. Hm, come to think of it I should also tag Jool Odyssey with 'jool 5' and 'WIP'.

[KSK]

57 minutes ago, Kuzzter said:

Oooh boy this new forum is confusing--I do hope all the writers make it back OK and continue to put up great content. I don't know how important Tags will be in the new system, but I put them on my fiction threads anyway and might recommend others do the same, to let people find our stuff more easily. All my stories are tagged 'kerbfleet' and 'graphic novel'. In as much as these are also Mission Reports I tagged E:O0 with 'eve return' and D,OB! with 'duna'. Hm, come to think of it I should also tag Jool Odyssey with 'jool 5' and 'WIP'.

I'm back but yeah, the new forum is taking some getting used to and I'm not finding all the whitespace particularly restful. Good call about the tags - I'll add something suitable to First Flight.

How are people finding the formatting? A lot of my punctuation seems to be borked, especially speech marks and ellipses, which has mucked up substantial chunks of First Flight. I'll leave it for a bit in case it is something that can be repaired across the forum but after that... gonna be a long clean-up job. 

[steuben]

Formatting is off for me as well. "A Turtle Stops Flying" was pretty bad, so much radio chatter in that one. I just copied and pasted from my offline copies.

I like the idea of the tags, atm. I will let me link all of my Tales of the Swam together, forum wise. I just hope that there won't be a tag collision.