A Thread for Writers to talk about Writing

[MinimumSky5]

I don't know why that happened, but just in case of computer stupidity in that, and to help with spelling and grammar, I write in an MS Word document and just copy and paste into the reply box.

[Sharkman Briton]

Eh, just incase no one understood it correctly, the Token expired message was a Vbulletin message.

[KSK]

@ Ten Key.

I think all surplus King characters find their way to Mid-World don't they? I too would recommend 'On Writing'', folks - it's pretty short and to the point, with some interesting worked examples.

Please do post your comments on First Flight - and thanks in advance for taking the time to write them down.

[Sharkman Briton]

Hey everyone, as I always write stories only based on what I'm doing at that time (E.G. Project Genesis) sometimes I loose the confidence in it, or something like that, with Minmus Explorers I suddenly couldn't be bothered to do it anymore, I was supposed to launch a thing to dock with Malcolm in space, but after I was halted for a while playing with space battleships, and then my launcher for it kept failing and spinning out (probably becasue I hadn't had a fairing.) I decided I couldn't be bothered anymore and gave up on it. So whats a good way to keep interest in a topic?

Another thing, I always try to give as many characters as I can a reasonable amount of focus time, whilst "main main characters" are very "out n about" and always having a bit of focus time most of the time, is this a good way to do it?

Even moar: I've started some weird stuff now, today I was halfway through writing the story for the first update of Project Genesis, and then I had to go to the beach (Not only did we have our cavalier dog today, as usual, but we also had my uncle's dog because my dads parents were ignoring the fact that he howls when they leave him.) and when I came back and tried to add pictures, boom, VBulletin error, had to refresh the page and all my progress on it was deleted, and I had no will to start again, sadly, of course it doesn't mean Project Genesis is cancelled, just the first update has no story part.

Hope you all like my stuff, I'm always regretting that I can't do my stuff graphic-novel style like Kuzz and all the Kool Kids, because my computer doesn't have powerpoint, I can't buy it and I simply can't be bothered with MS Paint. Thanks.

[Ten Key]

So whats a good way to keep interest in a topic?

There's a difference between losing interest in the story and losing interest in the game. Losing interest in the story is normal. . .this is going to happen with any project that takes more than a few hours to complete. Everyone finds a different way to deal with it. Constructive procrastination (where I rotate to a previously shelved project when I start to lose interest on the current slog) is my method of choice.

Losing interest in the game is another problem entirely. Or more accurately, being afraid of/frustrated with it. There have been times with KSP where a mission has been approaching either a tedious or terrifying moment, but the game is off and the "problem" is "paused". And gosh, I find myself really not wanting to deal with it. I'm afraid time is the only remedy here, so it's not a bad idea to run your play though a bit ahead of your story, just in case you get stuck.

Another thing, I always try to give as many characters as I can a reasonable amount of focus time, whilst "main main characters" are very "out n about" and always having a bit of focus time most of the time, is this a good way to do it?

I'm not really sure what you're asking here Shark-- maybe my reply to KSK will be helpful. That's coming shortly.

. . .and when I came back and tried to add pictures, boom, VBulletin error, had to refresh the page and all my progress on it was deleted, and I had no will to start again, sadly, of course it doesn't mean Project Genesis is cancelled, just the first update has no story part.

This is the second forum I've taken to writing stories on, and I always, always, write my story in wordpad first. Forums like to log you out, and the auto save feature is not reliable. I copy/paste my stuff into the forum once it's finished, though doing so clears all of the formatting. I have to go back through and clean up the paragraphs and reenter the italics.

For shorter posts (like this one) that I type directly into the forums, or when I'm "previewing post" to keep my log in active during a long copy/paste entry, I always copy the text to my clipboard before hitting the submit/preview button. That way if the forum blips out and the auto save fails, I still have my work in my computer's memory and I can just paste it right back in.

[Sharkman Briton]

Thanks, will keep a close eye on that notepad.

[Ten Key]

I went looking for the specific scene I wanted to mention, but quickly realized I had no idea what chapter it was in. So if some of the details are not quite right, forgive me, I'm working off memory. But, maybe that's better in a way, as it's what went into my brain when I was reading it.

I remember a scene where. . .Jeb I think it was. . .was driving to visit the Kerbin Space Agency for the first time, and they were lost. I remember there being a road sign that either set them straight or confused them. There were a few people in the vehicle, and one of them was. . .Ordrie I think? And that was the moment where things jumped off the rails a bit for me. I could not remember who that was. And I was trying, to the point where I had to stop reading and think about it. But I could not remember.

And when they got where they were going, I remember Lodan (who I did remember) leading the group on a tour of the facility. I remember there being a woman with a wrench outside (who's name went into my head as "Cam-something or other", but I think it was probably Kelney. Or maybe Fercan?), and I remember Loden going from room to room, and the names kept coming, and at some point my mind just gave up.

There is a scene some time later where the Rockomax flight crew arrives at the airport and meets KIS for the first time. That's a great scene, and it sets the stage for really highlighting the differences between the two groups. But when I read it the first time there was no power to the scene at all. It wasn't until almost the very end of that chapter that I realized who James and Sherfel were.

---

There is a scene at the very beginning of Old Man's War by John Scalzi (good book!) where the character goes to a recruiting office. The premise of the story (printed on the back of the book, no spoilers) is that people on Earth can sign up for an off world military organization and then, when they're 75 years old, they have the option to leave Earth forever to join the war. How exactly that works is a mystery. The scene plays out something like this. . .

John Perry (main character) walks in, and the recruiter says "You must be John Perry."

"How do you know who I am?"

"I have three people on my list turning 75 today. One called in to say she wasn't coming, and you don't look like <female name>."

It goes on from there for twelve pages, paragraph after paragraph of fairly dense world and character building. Some of it is internal monologue, some of it is conversation, but at no point is the recruiter given a name. At the end, John Perry stands, shakes the recruiter's hand, and leaves the office. On his way through the parking lot, he passes an elderly woman.

"<Female name>?"

"Yes, how did you know?"

"I just wanted to wish you a happy birthday. And maybe I'll see you again." He points skyward. "Up there."

That's a great character hook, and though the character never appears again anywhere else in the book, I remember her. And I would bet good money she turns up in a sequel.

In contrast, the recruiter was a throw away character. She had a ton of lines, took up twelve pages of the book, and was critical in setting the stage for the rest of the story. But the reader will not miss her when she's gone, nor need to remember her at some later point.

For the Kerbin Interplanetary Society alone, you have an Ornie, an Ordrie, and an Ordun. I remember Jeb (I love your take here), Ademone (the scene with her puzzling out the satellite signal is really good), Lodan (though he tends to merge with Nelton in my head) and I remember Jonton. And, honestly, that's pretty much it. Even Bob, Bill and Wernher have kind of melted into the background. I can reference the list and pick out their job titles, and I can often (but not always) remember the character in the context of the organization they serve. But I don't remember the characters themselves.

First Flight is a great story, better than a lot of published stuff I've seen. It stands on it's own merits and I cannot wait to lay my hands on the next chapter. But I think your ocean of characters has cost you some missed opportunities. The character who works for the Kerbin Space Agency, the one whose job it is to map out the spread of the blight and find out how long they have? My goodness, that's a wonderful opportunity. Here you have this character (I thought it was Shermal, but looking at the list it may be Joefen. I can't tell. ) who is completely isolated from the disaster, holed up in a lab, and yet they can see the whole thing unfolding in numbers, and may be the only person on the planet who can truly wrap their brain around the scope of it. There are so many interesting places to take that. But that character is so lost in the noise that I think. . .well, you might be able to do it. I wouldn't be able to.

I would ask you, did that torpedo boat skipper really need a name?

Edited August 29, 2015 by Ten Key
typos

[Sharkman Briton]

Anyone have recommended tools for storywriting? For example, if you've got pictures of the characters, then I highly recommend TextureReplacer and some head packs, it really makes the characters unique. Good for IVA views, RPM would be useful, not only does it make YOU feel immersed and with the characters, it also can make for some cool shots. I might try a short test Graphic Novel style, like Kuzz. Could be interesting as I am very trigger happy with screens.

[MinimumSky5]

That does depend on the style of story you're writing, so for me, a wide variety of part models is more important (but I will look at TextureReplacer).

[Sharkman Briton]

This is the head pack I use, theres alot of different types of things in there, like a goatee-like beard.

- - - Updated - - -

It would also be very nice for Kuzz to make a sort of "Introduction to Graphic Novel-style stories" to give us a clue, if he wants to, of course.

[Sharkman Briton]

Hey guys and gals here, I have decided to travel the way of the Kuzzter and try my hand at a graphic novel style story, as a sort of "Mini-Interlude" for Project Genesis Uno, here it is, gonna release it here first as I want to hear you people's opinions and critique.

It was very fun taking screens at the right moment, for those confused about the Minmus-spotting part, it's a bit left of the constellation thing with 3 stars one below the other and another star just to the left of it. Looking for critique and peoples general opinion as well, thanks. I hope you all like it. My first time making this, I used MS paint and it's very effective.

[HafCoJoe]

Does this thread count for video makers talking about plot writing?

[Sharkman Briton]

I guess.

[Sharkman Briton]

How does everyone like my comic-style stories so far? I've made interlude 1 for Genesis Uno, and it's alot longer than that mini-interlude test I did.

[RainDreamer]

Anyone interested in writing "choose your own adventure" games? I have a collaborative game at forum game section:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/133060-Choose-our-own-adventure-A-co-op-writing-game

[Mister Dilsby]

Hey guys and gals here, I have decided to travel the way of the Kuzzter and try my hand at a graphic novel style story, as a sort of "Mini-Interlude" for Project Genesis Uno, here it is, gonna release it here first as I want to hear you people's opinions and critique.

Looks good, though it might be best to just put the link here rather than duplicate post

- - - Updated - - -

Does this thread count for video makers talking about plot writing?

Absoultely!

[Sharkman Briton]

Okay, thanks. This comic-style thing is really fun!

[Yukon0009]

How does everyone like my comic-style stories so far? I've made interlude 1 for Genesis Uno, and it's alot longer than that mini-interlude test I did.

Interesting format, but the speech could stand to be a bit bigger.

[Sharkman Briton]

In what ways?

[Yukon0009]

As in the actual text being larger.

If it's larger, misht be more eyecatching. Just my two cents tho.

[Sharkman Briton]

Okay, will keep it in mind, it's just in MS paint there may be loads of text size options but it basically breaks down to either massive or small.

[Mister Dilsby]

How does everyone like my comic-style stories so far? I've made interlude 1 for Genesis Uno, and it's alot longer than that mini-interlude test I did.

I think this is a good direction for the story; your narrative seems to flow more smoothly in the comics style. It does for me as well--I can certainly write prose, but I find it a lot easier to keep Forum readers engaged by tying my story to things that remind them of their own gameplay and pictures are very good for that.

As far as the comics pages themselves, I notice that almost all of them are full screenshots with some tiny portrait views thrown in for dialogue. I understand this might be hard in MS Paint, but I encourage you to vary the look of your panels and think about your graphic design. The size, shape and position of your panels are all important in directing the reader's eye to tell the story. Look at how Parkaboy does it in in this sequence. He uses hisfull-frame screenshots almost as background, and inserts panels and dialogue in and around them to control the flow of the story. Notice there is a mix of wide-angle establishing shots, medium range to show a 'moving' sequence of events, and close-ups for important dialogue. Your eyes always know where to go on the page.

[Sharkman Briton]

Thanks for the critique, I'll give it a shot next time, I tried doing that a little bit on the last panel of int1.

[KSK]

Apologies in advance for the length of this post but I figured that Ten Key's considered critique deserved an equally considered response. So here goes.

As a general point, the critique was hugely encouraging but also gave me much food for thought. The take-home message (which I got loud and clear ) is: too many characters. As well as some missed opportunities for added drama, this also results in core characters being lost in the noise which, (although Ten Key didn’t say as much) makes it harder than it needs to be for readers to follow the various plot threads.

Thinking about it - and I offer this as a reason rather than an excuse - quite a bit of that can be traced back to not being quite sure what I was writing to begin with. First Flight was originally going to be all about the KIS’s peaceful exploration of space, segued into a ‘plucky underdogs vs corporate might’ Space Race and then finally became much more of a Kerbin-wide story, with the KIS and Rockomax only being part of it.

End result - a good many characters that were originally intended to be far more important than they ended up being, and who ended up stumbling awkwardly between ‘bit character’ and ‘main character who didn’t get enough page time.’

That’s definitely something to take on board for the re-write. Which will happen eventually, if nothing else, to fix a continuity error that’s been bugging me for a while.

In the early kermol chapters, Jonton plants a new Grove, which is described as being a new Kerm seed plus another 36 saplings from an existing Kerm. Later on we find that this would have been a Really Bad Idea.

Taking the rest of your comments in turn.

I went looking for the specific scene I wanted to mention, but quickly realized I had no idea what chapter it was in. So if some of the details are not quite right, forgive me, I'm working off memory. But, maybe that's better in a way, as it's what went into my brain when I was reading it.

Agreed - that’s instructional all by itself.

I remember a scene where. . .Jeb I think it was. . .was driving to visit the Kerbin Space Agency for the first time, and they were lost. I remember there being a road sign that either set them straight or confused them. There were a few people in the vehicle, and one of them was. . .Ordrie I think? And that was the moment where things jumped off the rails a bit for me. I could not remember who that was. And I was trying, to the point where I had to stop reading and think about it. But I could not remember.

And when they got where they were going, I remember Lodan (who I did remember) leading the group on a tour of the facility. I remember there being a woman with a wrench outside (who's name went into my head as "Cam-something or other", but I think it was probably Kelney. Or maybe Fercan?), and I remember Loden going from room to room, and the names kept coming, and at some point my mind just gave up.

You know what - I know the woman with the wrench that you’re talking about but I can’t recall her name either without going back to the chapter in question. I think that says it all. I do remember she was a minor character in a previous chapter, where the President comes to visit the half built KSC - she gives him a chance to demonstrate his technical understanding, or at least that he’s been very well briefed. Why don’t I just leave her there.

There is a scene some time later where the Rockomax flight crew arrives at the airport and meets KIS for the first time. That's a great scene, and it sets the stage for really highlighting the differences between the two groups. But when I read it the first time there was no power to the scene at all. It wasn't until almost the very end of that chapter that I realized who James and Sherfel were.

I confess that this caught me by surprise, since James and Sherfel had two, fairly meaty, chapters to themselves. But yeah - there is a very large gap between those chapters and the ones you’re talking about.

Could be fixed by re-arranging some of the chapters and including a small section where they both come home safely and Rockomax wins the Probodyne prize for keeping four kerbals on orbit for a month. That would close out that particular plot thread and remind the reader who James and Sherfel are.

*snip*

For the Kerbin Interplanetary Society alone, you have an Ornie, an Ordrie, and an Ordun. I remember Jeb (I love your take here), Ademone (the scene with her puzzling out the satellite signal is really good), Lodan (though he tends to merge with Nelton in my head) and I remember Jonton. And, honestly, that's pretty much it. Even Bob, Bill and Wernher have kind of melted into the background. I can reference the list and pick out their job titles, and I can often (but not always) remember the character in the context of the organization they serve. But I don't remember the characters themselves.

Erk - there’s something not quite right if Bill, Bob and Wernher melt into the background. Not quite sure how to fix that directly but maybe cutting back the number of minor characters would help.

First Flight is a great story, better than a lot of published stuff I've seen. It stands on it's own merits and I cannot wait to lay my hands on the next chapter.

I really appreciate that and all the more so because its a considered opinion with some well articulated caveats attached. Thanks.

(Which isn’t to say that I haven’t appreciated all the kind words, positive comments and general support from everyone on the First Flight thread. That’s the kind of thing that really keeps you motivated!)

But I think your ocean of characters has cost you some missed opportunities. The character who works for the Kerbin Space Agency, the one whose job it is to map out the spread of the blight and find out how long they have? My goodness, that's a wonderful opportunity. Here you have this character (I thought it was Shermal, but looking at the list it may be Joefen. I can't tell. ) who is completely isolated from the disaster, holed up in a lab, and yet they can see the whole thing unfolding in numbers, and may be the only person on the planet who can truly wrap their brain around the scope of it. There are so many interesting places to take that. But that character is so lost in the noise that I think. . .well, you might be able to do it. I wouldn't be able to.

Not without a re-write, since that part of the story is largely done. It’s something to bear in mind though. The way I’ve presented the Kerm crisis has resulted in a fair bit of duplication along the way as various different groups learn about it. That was deliberate but maybe I can figure out a snappier way of doing it.

I would ask you, did that torpedo boat skipper really need a name?

Don’t recall him/her getting one. Gusden was out there in a cutter because he was present in all the preceding ‘military buildup’ chapters. Actually, ‘Lightning’ as a chapter wasn’t too bad for extraneous characters - none of Gusden’s crew or his seconds in command aboard the other boats were named. But, as I said earlier, I do take your point.

Edited August 31, 2015 by KSK

[MinimumSky5]

I think the issue with First Flight is that it has enough characters for a full novel, but people generally give less attention to fanfic than novels, so they will be less able to remember all of the plot threads and character arcs. Also, it's too late to change, but the names of Ordrie, Ornie and Ordun are probably too close to each other, and could cause some confusion.