Kerbal Joint Reinforcement as stock?

[More Boosters]

I must admit to downloading this mod far later than I should have, but I must say, it makes so much sense! Things don't fall apart easily and vertical building is no longer a nightmare; this mod really improves the quality of life.

For those who don't know it's a mod strengthens the connection between any two parts, and that makes tall rockets not fall apart.

I mean look at real life! Rockets are built vertically,you don't see huge clusters of boosters on the sides (tops 2) and rightly so, that adds more drag. Of course you shouldn't be able to go too tall, but KSP rocket height is well within reason; they should not collapse when the infrastructure is there.

I think the joint strength in this mod should be made stock.

What do you think?

[Columbia]

Yes. Yes, yes, and yes.

The joints in KSP have crossed the line between "Slightly weak and a good challenge" and "Noodles."

At one point, i installed KJR, underestimating it's power and usefulness, and built ships around it. After uninstalling it.. all of them crumbled down to the ground.

Please, I honestly see no reason not to. It's not overpowered, it's only decent.

[yorshee]

Yes, I find even a 100% stock craft made of the Kerbodyne parts will wobble unrealistically with the stock joint strength.

[pandaman]

I do agree that stock joints, even if only applied to stacked and not radial attachments, need to be a bit more rigid.

[wossname]

This will never be a part of KSP proper. The spacetape manufacturers will not allow it, in the same way that the oil companies on Earth will never allow electric vehicles to be viable.

[Hagen von Tronje]

Yes, primarily because part count is such a gamekiller. If having a ton of struts didn't hurt your performance at all, I'd say "who cares, space tape", but the feasability of craft that certainly should be capable of working is limited by part count, and KJR is a prime way to reduce part count.

But the big one to me is the physics buffer on load. This is a straight up bugfix (well, bug band-aid). Nobody wants their craft that were motionless on save to impact the ground with catastrophic force on load, that alone makes KJR a "not playing without it" mod for me.

[AppTux]

Yes, my rockets would wobble for no particular reason, installed the mod and never looked back.

[Frozen_Heart]

Yes. Yes, yes, and yes.

The joints in KSP have crossed the line between "Slightly weak and a good challenge" and "Noodles."

At one point, i installed KJR, underestimating it's power and usefulness, and built ships around it. After uninstalling it.. all of them crumbled down to the ground.

Please, I honestly see no reason not to. It's not overpowered, it's only decent.

Oh my sweet summer child. Go and play 0.23 and then you can truly understand the pain of wobbly joints.

[Elthy]

Wasnt KJR the reason the stock strenght was increased? Afaik ferram even helped squad, but they still wanted to keep a bit wobble...

[More Boosters]

Wasnt KJR the reason the stock strenght was increased? Afaik ferram even helped squad, but they still wanted to keep a bit wobble...

Did they specify why? Honestly after KJR the game is not the same for me anymore, in a good way.

[klgraham1013]

Did they specify why? Honestly after KJR the game is not the same for me anymore, in a good way.

I think the wobble is part of the Kerbal-aesthetic and that's why they kept a bit of it.

[nalfz]

Does anyone actually enjoy launching overcooked spaghetti into space? Plus, having to maintain 30-50% of your part count as struts utterly destroys your framerate on large builds

[More Boosters]

Can the naysayers step forward and explain us why they feel so?

Also, can the people who would like something in between explain what's too solid about KJR joints?

[Yukon0009]

I'd like something in between.

[Gaarst]

If it's just to prevent crafts from wobbling, we don't necessarily need joints as strong as KJR has: what we need is stronger joints and a rework on SAS.

If your craft is wobbling because it's a skyscraper of tanks that's your fault and you'll have to redesign it; but if it's wobbling because SAS suddenly decides to behave as WAS (Wobbling Augmentation System) even on shorter crafts, while using KJR, then a SAS redone is what you need...

Still voted "Yes" though

[Bloody_looser]

Days, when any strutless ships just fell apart at the pad are long gone.

Currently, I experience wobbling only due to overreacting engine gimbals and reaction wheels. This should be fixed.

If your ship is falling apart, it is a problem of poor design. KJR just makes it solid poor design.

So, nope, joint strength is totally fine.

[goldenpsp]

I may be in the minority but KJR has given me odd problems in the kraken sense to the point that I ended up removing it.

[mikegarrison]

Days, when any strutless ships just fell apart at the pad are long gone.

Currently, I experience wobbling only due to overreacting engine gimbals and reaction wheels. This should be fixed.

If your ship is falling apart, it is a problem of poor design. KJR just makes it solid poor design.

So, nope, joint strength is totally fine.

What you are talking about is not "poor design", really. In fact, it's exactly what KJR fixes.

The problem is the time response lag between the engine gimbal and the part that is commanding the engine to gimbal. This puts a phase shift into the control response, and that phase shift can really screw you up. You get divergent behavior because you overcorrect due to how long it takes for the nose of the ship to respond to what's happening at the tail of the ship.

With KJR the ship is reasonably stiff and this removes (most of) the phase shift. With KJR when you gimbal the engine, the nose knows about it right away. So you don't overcorrect.

[severedsolo]

Wasnt KJR the reason the stock strenght was increased? Afaik ferram even helped squad, but they still wanted to keep a bit wobble...

I seem to remember from a livestream with Harvester at the time, a Unity update meant they could add more strength to part connectors (or maybe they could connect in more than one place? I don't remember exactly. It was Unity though).

If you want craft that don't wobble, you are playing the wrong game. Before ARM I remember having to strut between (vertically stacked) stages alot of the time. Those days are gone (thankfully).

[Red Iron Crown]

Suggestion for the stock game moved over to Suggestions and Development Discussion.

Wasnt KJR the reason the stock strenght was increased? Afaik ferram even helped squad, but they still wanted to keep a bit wobble...

The addition of 3.75m parts prompted the increased joint strength (both arrived in 0.23.5). A big step forward, in 0.23 and previous it was not uncommon for a third or more of a vessel's part count to be struts, it was simply amazing to see screenshots of 2.5m boosters attached with a radial decoupler and a single strut.

As I understand it the devs feel that some wobbliness is part of the cartoony aesthetic charm of KSP, as is the potential for funny structural failures.

[Columbia]

Oh my sweet summer child. Go and play 0.23 and then you can truly understand the pain of wobbly joints.

..I have been playing KSP since 0.20. It's worse back then (Can't even stack more than about four Jumbo 64s without wobbling hard) but that doesn't mean anything. The joints are still ramen noodles.

Seriously, just because it's been worse before doesn't mean it's flawless ​now.

[clivman]

Rigid body physics please, KJR is a bare minimum

[Columbia]

..I have been playing KSP since 0.20. It's worse back then (Can't even stack more than about four Jumbo 64s without wobbling hard) but that doesn't mean anything. The joints are still ramen noodles.

Seriously, just because it's been worse before doesn't mean it's flawless ​now.

Oh, and while I'm at it, here's me taking off after replacing booster engines from Skippers into Mainsails. In 0.23.

There, you have it.

[Bloody_looser]

What you are talking about is not "poor design", really. In fact, it's exactly what KJR fixes.

The problem is the time response lag between the engine gimbal and the part that is commanding the engine to gimbal. This puts a phase shift into the control response, and that phase shift can really screw you up. You get divergent behavior because you overcorrect due to how long it takes for the nose of the ship to respond to what's happening at the tail of the ship.

With KJR the ship is reasonably stiff and this removes (most of) the phase shift. With KJR when you gimbal the engine, the nose knows about it right away. So you don't overcorrect.

Poor design is poor design.

Claw's Stock Plus, giving tweakable to gimbal range/reaction wheel force fixes the SAS problem without touching joints. So, KJR - still nah.

[xebx]

Yes yes, i like rockets not flying noodles