NASA's SLS Mars Exploration Plans Finally Released!

[Darnok]

Sorry, but almost all important explorers in history was funded or driven by goverments.

Just to name one: CRISTOFORO COLOMBO.

The one who discovered new path to India? That says a lot how government explorers work and interpret things

[Nibb31]

But since when heroes worked for government? Even Robin Hood knew it is not true... full time job for government have only officials and they want to keep their jobs badly, because they can't do anything else than moving paper from one desk to another.

Sure, tell that to the police, firefighters, military, nurses, teachers, etc...

[peadar1987]

Oh shush Darnok. You think that because somebody's money is coming from the government makes them inefficient or stupid?

If Columbus isn't to your taste, how about Magellan, Vespucci, Cook, Da Gama? How would their expeditions have been improved if their funding had come from venture capitalists?

- - - Updated - - -

Sure, tell that to the police, firefighters, military, nurses, teachers, etc...

With his ideological opposition to any form of government (he thinks if you pay one cent in tax, you are effectively a slave), I reckon he thinks they should all be privatised, Jennifer Government style.

[Darnok]

Sure, tell that to the police, firefighters, military, nurses, teachers, etc...

Police and military should be always sponsored by country, because main role of country is to protect people inside from people outside

While other jobs can be privatised, before 18th century there were schools, private schools and they did pretty good job. Only later very rich people need more educated laborers for their industry, because uneducated laborers were loosing too fast and too many fingers doing their job and it was bloody hard and expensive to replace them

So they started public education and those laborers had to pay higher taxes for their childrens education.

Oh shush Darnok. You think that because somebody's money is coming from the government makes them inefficient or stupid?

If someone is working at full time job for democratic government he is inefficient, naive and possibly stupid.

If Columbus isn't to your taste, how about Magellan, Vespucci, Cook, Da Gama? How would their expeditions have been improved if their funding had come from venture capitalists?

They had money from Kings, not from governments, and King as owner of those money cared about them. If those explorers would failed The King, they would be executed with no exception!

That is main difference when there is owner of money and where isn't any. In democratic governments money from taxes have no owner and they are wasted. Responsibility and fear of punishment was nice motivation for all those great people, while now there is no responsibility for people working for governments.

What will be punishment for failure of NASA mission? What will be punishment for not doing any mission for years? NONE! So there is NO motivation to do any mission and there will be NO bold missions.

With his ideological opposition to any form of government (he thinks if you pay one cent in tax, you are effectively a slave), I reckon he thinks they should all be privatised, Jennifer Government style.

If you have zero savings, you don't own anything with value (land, buildings etc etc), you have only your monthly payroll from which you have to pay tax, because there are people who know better, than you, what you need... and you can't object or refuse, because they are the law, and if you do object you will be locked in cage... then you are slave.

[G'th]

Its a testament to the 21st century that people who very clearly have no idea what they're talking about can speak out with such confidence.

[peadar1987]

Police and military should be always sponsored by country, because main role of country is to protect people inside from people outside

While other jobs can be privatised, before 18th century there were schools, private schools and they did pretty good job. Only later very rich people need more educated laborers for their industry, because uneducated laborers were loosing too fast and too many fingers doing their job and it was bloody hard and expensive to replace them

So they started public education and those laborers had to pay higher taxes for their childrens education.

I don't think we should be taking moral guidance from the 18th century.

If someone is working at full time job for democratic government he is inefficient, naive and possibly stupid.

My salary is paid by the government. Enlighten me on how I would be more efficient, savvy and intelligent if my research had a corporate sponsor?

They had money from Kings, not from governments, and King as owner of those money cared about them. If those explorers would failed The King, they would be executed with no exception!

That is main difference when there is owner of money and where isn't any. In democratic governments money from taxes have no owner and they are wasted. Responsibility and fear of punishment was nice motivation for all those great people, while now there is no responsibility for people working for governments.

So is your argument in favour of absolute monarchy? Giving corporations the power to carry out executions if people don't spend their money wisely?

What will be punishment for failure of NASA mission? What will be punishment for not doing any mission for years? NONE! So there is NO motivation to do any mission and there will be NO bold missions.

How would you punish NASA for their failures?

If you have zero savings, you don't own anything with value (land, buildings etc etc), you have only your monthly payroll from which you have to pay tax, because there are people who know better, than you, what you need... and you can't object or refuse, because they are the law, and if you do object you will be locked in cage... then you are slave.

If I kill somebody, and the police try to arrest me, I can't object or refuse, because they are the law. Guess I'm a slave because I can't go round murdering anybody who looks at me funny.

Describing anybody who has to give up a fraction of their income to support society as a slave is immensely offensive to anybody who has actually been impacted by slavery.

[G'th]

How would you punish NASA for their failures?

Funnily enough, punishing NASA would in most cases be punishing the victim.

[Darnok]

I don't think we should be taking moral guidance from the 18th century.

Well you are right I prefer 16th-17th century.

My salary is paid by the government. Enlighten me on how I would be more efficient, savvy and intelligent if my research had a corporate sponsor?

Quit and search for job in private sector or start your own company and see difference, responsibility is first thing you will notice

So is your argument in favour of absolute monarchy? Giving corporations the power to carry out executions if people don't spend their money wisely?

Corporations? I didn't used that word, I was talking about Kings as owners of money from taxes. I don't see how corporation can manage those money.

How would you punish NASA for their failures?

Fired everyone responsible for failed mission. If mission has too large budget to be accepted responsible is leadership, so they should be fired. Later I would search for some visionary people like Zubrin who could make plans for missions that US can afford today.

If I kill somebody, and the police try to arrest me, I can't object or refuse, because they are the law. Guess I'm a slave because I can't go round murdering anybody who looks at me funny.

Describing anybody who has to give up a fraction of their income to support society as a slave is immensely offensive to anybody who has actually been impacted by slavery.

So for you ability to manage my own property and my own money is a crime? Yeah that is why I am against government workers, this mind set is really wrong.

Not fraction, taxes in my country are 70+% of my income and they are spend on things I don't want and don't need.

Funnily enough' date=' punishing NASA would in most cases be punishing the victim.[/quote']

Victims are tax payers that have hope their money are not wasted on plans that are never going to work!

If NASA has no idea how to do things, they should quit and search different jobs.

[sojourner]

This forum is quickly becoming "Darmok and Angellestat at Tenagar". Where's Picard when we need him?

[peadar1987]

Well you are right I prefer 16th-17th century.

Ah, so mass religious oppression and a life expectancy of 35 then.

Quit and search for job in private sector or start your own company and see difference, responsibility is first thing you will notice

And I suppose this is spoken from your years of experience in cutting-edge scientific research, right?

I don't perform, I lose my funding.

Corporations? I didn't used that word, I was talking about Kings as owners of money from taxes. I don't see how corporation can manage those money.

So it was an argument in favour of monarchy then. Gotcha.

Fired everyone responsible for failed mission. If mission has too large budget to be accepted responsible is leadership, so they should be fired. Later I would search for some visionary people like Zubrin who could make plans for missions that US can afford today.

And who is going to work for you if you go around firing people for the slightest transgression? How is the constant stress of being made destitute going to affect people's willingness to take risks an innovate, not to mention their general wellbeing?

So for you ability to manage my own property and my own money is a crime? Yeah that is why I am against government workers, this mind set is really wrong.

Not paying taxes is a crime. And well it should be. Your wages aren't something to be viewed in isolation. They're created by companies and individuals using an educated, healthy workforce, benefiting from low crime rates, using state-funded and maintained transport systems. You don't want to contribute to that? Fine. Move to Somalia, I hear it's lovely this time of year.

Not fraction, taxes in my country are 70+% of my income and they are spend on things I don't want and don't need.

Really? Which country is that? Because according to this list it's most probably not on earth, unless you're earning multiple million pounds in Belgium or Finland.

[_Augustus_]

I think that this will happen, alongside HAVOC.

'nuff said.

[Darnok]

Ah, so mass religious oppression and a life expectancy of 35 then.

What? For example Kepler was much older than that and he wasn't exception.

In my country there was no religious oppression, Poland was always one of most tolerant country in Europe.

As for moral guidance... kings has to be good at something, diplomacy, military etc etc, while today politicians are only good at telling lies.

Best liar wins in all countries, not only in Europe... so much for moral guidance of 21th century.

And I suppose this is spoken from your years of experience in cutting-edge scientific research, right?

I don't perform, I lose my funding.

Years of experience in private sector and seeing how it is slowed down by useless regulations and burden of sponsoring payrolls of officials.

When some one is working for government main question is does anyone really needs your work to be done or it is artificial job created only to move papers between desks?

So it was an argument in favour of monarchy then. Gotcha.

What are you talking about? I am not supporting corporations and not advocating to give them more rights - it is opposite.

Yes, I am supporting monarchy.

And who is going to work for you if you go around firing people for the slightest transgression?

Very successful people

Mission failed != slightest transgression

How is the constant stress of being made destitute going to affect people's willingness to take risks an innovate, not to mention their general wellbeing?

As it always did, it will push people to pick most efficient path to do the job.

NASA has problems in doing the job done... the only purpose of NASA was to explore space, if you haven't noticed.

If they can't push US any further in space exploration... they are no longer needed?

Of course they will say US need one more space station or one more capsule launched by catapult, but that doesn't have to be true

Not paying taxes is a crime. And well it should be. Your wages aren't something to be viewed in isolation. They're created by companies and individuals using an educated, healthy workforce, benefiting from low crime rates, using state-funded and maintained transport systems. You don't want to contribute to that? Fine. Move to Somalia, I hear it's lovely this time of year.

Where is @G'th when you need him

What profit do I have from some individuals, I don't know, using education sponsored from my taxes? NONE! They are taking resources and jobs from my children.

What are profits for me when drunk people are using "free" healthcare? NONE! They can drink more and don't worry about money for healthcare because it is "free".

What I get for paying for prisoners dinner? I have to work so person who was trying to steal my property can have "free" dinner, in what universe that is just and fair?

Really? Which country is that? Because according to this list it's most probably not on earth, unless you're earning multiple million pounds in Belgium or Finland.

Poland - those taxes are wrong, when you sum things up it is over 70%, people earning over single million have to pay over 80%, but they aren't, because they are creating companies in countries where taxes are lower.

So people in middle are responsible for paying all the money "country" needs, yet those rich people are taking free education and free healthcare for their children for "free", same as I do. I don't mind paying taxes as long as they are fair (less than 30%).

[G'th]

Well you are right I prefer 16th-17th century.

This sort of sentiment almost always outs someone as being incredibly immature. You would hate every second of having to live during that time period, and you really can't lie and say you won't. The very simple fact that you're even on this site is proof enough of that.

Quit and search for job in private sector or start your own company and see difference, responsibility is first thing you will notice

Private companies can be more efficient than a government, but that doesn't mean anything, especially when it comes to NASA. Much of what NASA builds and designs is contracted out to private companies.

Corporations? I didn't used that word, I was talking about Kings as owners of money from taxes. I don't see how corporation can manage those money.

Lol

Fired everyone responsible for failed mission. If mission has too large budget to be accepted responsible is leadership, so they should be fired. Later I would search for some visionary people like Zubrin who could make plans for missions that US can afford today.

So, your idea, is that every time NASA had a rocket that exploded back in the 50's and early 60's, the entirety of the organization should have been fired. Lolk. Its very obvious you have no experience whatsoever in any sort of professional setting, be it a government run organization or otherwise.

So for you ability to manage my own property and my own money is a crime? Yeah that is why I am against government workers, this mind set is really wrong.

Its called a social contract, and its the unfortunate reality of being able to enjoy a modern lifestyle. And regardless, if you're so opposed to it, then don't use anything that that money went towards. Don't use the roads. Don't use the emergency services. Good luck getting treated when someone stabs you.

Victims are tax payers that have hope their money are not wasted on plans that are never going to work!

If NASA has no idea how to do things, they should quit and search different jobs.

Do please give us your extensive resume listing your experience in the aerospace industry. Do show us how a private organization was able to do more than NASA currently while also being severely underfunded. And no, the answer is not SpaceX.

I hate to retread this road like in the last thread where we had someone like this, but its plainly obvious that you're completely clueless and should just stop embarrassing yourself.

[fredinno]

What? For example Kepler was much older than that and he wasn't exception.

In my country there was no religious oppression, Poland was always one of most tolerant country in Europe.

As for moral guidance... kings has to be good at something, diplomacy, military etc etc, while today politicians are only good at telling lies.

Best liar wins in all countries, not only in Europe... so much for moral guidance of 21th century.

Years of experience in private sector and seeing how it is slowed down by useless regulations and burden of sponsoring payrolls of officials.

When some one is working for government main question is does anyone really needs your work to be done or it is artificial job created only to move papers between desks?

What are you talking about? I am not supporting corporations and not advocating to give them more rights - it is opposite.

Yes, I am supporting monarchy.

Very successful people

Mission failed != slightest transgression

As it always did, it will push people to pick most efficient path to do the job.

NASA has problems in doing the job done... the only purpose of NASA was to explore space, if you haven't noticed.

If they can't push US any further in space exploration... they are no longer needed?

Of course they will say US need one more space station or one more capsule launched by catapult, but that doesn't have to be true

Where is @G'th when you need him

What profit do I have from some individuals, I don't know, using education sponsored from my taxes? NONE! They are taking resources and jobs from my children.

What are profits for me when drunk people are using "free" healthcare? NONE! They can drink more and don't worry about money for healthcare because it is "free".

What I get for paying for prisoners dinner? I have to work so person who was trying to steal my property can have "free" dinner, in what universe that is just and fair?

Poland - those taxes are wrong, when you sum things up it is over 70%, people earning over single million have to pay over 80%, but they aren't, because they are creating companies in countries where taxes are lower.

So people in middle are responsible for paying all the money "country" needs, yet those rich people are taking free education and free healthcare for their children for "free", same as I do. I don't mind paying taxes as long as they are fair (less than 30%).

HI ANGELLESAT! How are you doing:-3.

[Darnok]

This sort of sentiment almost always outs someone as being incredibly immature. You would hate every second of having to live during that time period' date=' and you really can't lie and say you won't. The very simple fact that you're even on this site is proof enough of that.

[/quote']

If you got your knowledge from TV, yes.

Private companies can be more efficient than a government' date=' but that doesn't mean anything[/quote']

That means everything

Lol

No' date=' I don't play it.

So, your idea, is that every time NASA had a rocket that exploded back in the 50's and early 60's, the entirety of the organization should have been fired. Lolk. Its very obvious you have no experience whatsoever in any sort of professional setting, be it a government run organization or otherwise.

Where I said that? Mission failed isn't single rocket explosion, mission failed is like N1, never go into space.

Please don't put words I didn't said as I would.

Its called a social contract' date=' and its the unfortunate reality of being able to enjoy a modern lifestyle. And regardless, if you're so opposed to it, then don't use anything that that money went towards. Don't use the roads. Don't use the emergency services. Good luck getting treated when someone stabs you.

[/quote']

You forget that if I have to pay high taxes I can't afford on private treatment?

If I wouldn't give away those money on taxes I could use them when I would need them?

Do please give us your extensive resume listing your experience in the aerospace industry. Do show us how a private organization was able to do more than NASA currently while also being severely underfunded. And no' date=' the answer is not SpaceX.

I hate to retread this road like in the last thread where we had someone like this, but its plainly obvious that you're completely clueless and should just stop embarrassing yourself.[/quote']

Why do you need my resume? Why do you value authorities more than arguments and common sense?

How did you calculated that NASA is underfunded? If because they said they need more money than they have it is not very accurate method

[Motokid600]

Oi, here we go again... People sure like to bite the hand that feeds, huh?

[AngelLestat]

fredinno, G'th, sojourner: what happens guys? you ass still hurts from our previous Orion discussion? Is still all there to be read it for those who wanna see how you eat your own words.

By the way.. I never derail the topic so not sure why you compare... it must be just another of your illogical arguments.

I dont need allies neither, because facts has only one side and I am very good chosing the right side each time.

when someone finish with all this, can we go back to the topic?

[Mitchz95]

I really hate these forums sometimes.

[G'th]

If you got your knowledge from TV, yes.

Hahahhahahahahahha

That means everything

No, it doesn't.

Where I said that? Mission failed isn't single rocket explosion, mission failed is like N1, never go into space.

Please don't put words I didn't said as I would.

Those rockets never got into space either until they were fixed. Your suggestion that mission failure should result in everyone getting fired is naive. Like I said, you've never worked in any actual professional setting in your life.

You forget that if I have to pay high taxes I can't afford on private treatment?

If I wouldn't give away those money on taxes I could use them when I would need them?

And if you don't like paying your taxes don't be a hyprocrite and use the things those taxes pay for. You want us to take you seriously then you better get off the grid. All you're doing is further proving your hypocrisy and apparent immaturity.

Why do you need my resume? Why do you value authorities more than arguments and common sense?

Because for all we know you're just a teenager trying to assert a poor and unrealistic worldview. Literally no one here agrees with you, and no matter what mental gymnastics you decide to pull, it means that you. are. wrong.

How did you calculated that NASA is underfunded? If because they said they need more money than they have it is not very accurate method

Well, gee, how about them having to scrape funds from payload development just to finish SLS? How about the entire existence of the CCDEV? Hell, how about the fact that over the years NASA's budget has decreased more and more no matter what they do? Our government wanted to slash funding to NASA before we even launched our first Saturn V. NASA's funding is just as likely to be cut during its height as it is during its lows, and has been at both times.

NASA is underfunded because our government has repeatedly shown it doesn't want to fund them, period. What NASA has to say about its own budget has nothing to do with it.

fredinno, G'th, sojourner: what happens guys? you ass still hurts from our previous Orion discussion? Is still all there to be read it for those who wanna see how you eat your own words.

Hahahhahahahahahha

[peadar1987]

What? For example Kepler was much older than that and he wasn't exception.

Reality disagrees with you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy#Life_expectancy_variation_over_time

In my country there was no religious oppression, Poland was always one of most tolerant country in Europe.

By contemporary standards, yes. By modern standards, oppressive hellhole.

As for moral guidance... kings has to be good at something, diplomacy, military etc etc, while today politicians are only good at telling lies.

Best liar wins in all countries, not only in Europe... so much for moral guidance of 21th century.

Good at being born to a descendant of a descendant of somebody who might once have been good at one of those things.

Years of experience in private sector and seeing how it is slowed down by useless regulations and burden of sponsoring payrolls of officials.

When some one is working for government main question is does anyone really needs your work to be done or it is artificial job created only to move papers between desks?

No, pretty sure my engineering research isn't just moving paper between desks. Funnily enough, my previous job in the private sector was pretty much exactly that.

What are you talking about? I am not supporting corporations and not advocating to give them more rights - it is opposite.

What is the private sector if not corporations? You support the private sector.

Yes, I am supporting monarchy.

Oh jeez!

Very successful people

Rubbish. Very successful people still want job security.

Mission failed != slightest transgression

So where's the "motivation" then?

As it always did, it will push people to pick most efficient path to do the job.

Nope, completely wrong. If you're going to fire everyone if they make a mistake, they're going to take the most conservative option possible, which will completely stifle innovation.

NASA has problems in doing the job done... the only purpose of NASA was to explore space, if you haven't noticed.

If they can't push US any further in space exploration... they are no longer needed?

Of course they will say US need one more space station or one more capsule launched by catapult, but that doesn't have to be true

In the last year alone, NASA and their partners have reached Pluto, Mars, and a comet with probes. They're exploring just fine considering the resources they have. Sacking everyone in a Trump-esque frenzy isn't going to put people in the clouds of Venus any time soon

What profit do I have from some individuals, I don't know, using education sponsored from my taxes? NONE! They are taking resources and jobs from my children.

The company you work for presumably has other employees. These employees are educated. Your company do business with other companies, the employes of these companies are educated. This is because Poland is a developed nation. If there was not a well-established education system, companies like this would simply go somewhere without an educated workforce, and there'd be no money for anybody.

What are profits for me when drunk people are using "free" healthcare? NONE! They can drink more and don't worry about money for healthcare because it is "free".

Because providing free healthcare reduces overall health costs in a country, due to people seeking preventative measures instead of letting health problems develop. If the cost of that is a few drunk people not dying in a gutter and continuing to be a burden on society, well, I'm actually okay with it.

What I get for paying for prisoners dinner? I have to work so person who was trying to steal my property can have "free" dinner, in what universe that is just and fair?

So would you execute petty criminals to save money? How compassionate of you.

Poland - those taxes are wrong, when you sum things up it is over 70%, people earning over single million have to pay over 80%, but they aren't, because they are creating companies in countries where taxes are lower.

Top marginal tax rate in Poland is 32% for those earning over 85,500 zloty. Social contributions are up to a maximum of 24% (and of that, the majority is into a pension fund, which you will get back when you retire). VAT is 23%.

That means you will pay a maximum of 56% on your earnings, leaving 44% to spend. If you only buy things taxed at the full rate of VAT (so no food or other lower-taxed items), this will be approximately another 11%, so an effective tax rate of 67%. That's only if you earn so much that the money you earn up to 85,500 zloty is insignificant.

Unless you can give me a breakdown of how you are managing to pay 70%+ of your income in taxes, I will choose to believe you have made this figure up.

So people in middle are responsible for paying all the money "country" needs, yet those rich people are taking free education and free healthcare for their children for "free", same as I do. I don't mind paying taxes as long as they are fair (less than 30%).

I've said this before, but you're the only person I've seen saying that free education and healthcare disproportionately favour the rich.

[fredinno]

Easy access to cislunar space, and I'd guess studying the psychological effects of being away from Earth for extended periods of time. Also radiation protection.

And also keeping people alive w/o resupply for as long as possible. Basically simulating inetplanetary transit, with the added benefit of being able to observe the moon below.

[Darnok]

Those rockets never got into space either until they were fixed. Your suggestion that mission failure should result in everyone getting fired is naive. Like I said' date=' you've never worked in any actual professional setting in your life.

[/quote']

Can we please stop going into personal attacks about resumes and experience? I am trying to stay on topic, but you guys are forcing me to defend myself

This is pretty simple, if rocket has minor malfunctions or even larger and it explodes once or twice, ok you can still finish the mission.

But if it never goes to space, then someone is responsible for that. In N1 case the entire concept of rocket was wrong and it had not enough tests, from what I read about it.

So I would fire leaders of this mission and everyone who would want to go with them. How is that bad approach?

I never said I would fire everyone... I said "Fired everyone responsible for failed mission." - maybe I am translating this wrong, but being responsible for failure is not same as working in group that failed its mission.

And if you don't like paying your taxes don't be a hyprocrite and use the things those taxes pay for. You want us to take you seriously then you better get off the grid. All you're doing is further proving your hypocrisy and apparent immaturity.

Read again my posts' date=' you misunderstood what I said or you have no idea how things works.

Because for all we know you're just a teenager trying to assert a poor and unrealistic worldview. Literally no one here agrees with you, and no matter what mental gymnastics you decide to pull, it means that you. are. wrong.

This world view was working good for 1000 of years in Europe... if it is unrealistic please explain me how during that time Europe conquered rest of the World?... but maybe in different thread

Well' date=' gee, how about them having to scrape funds from payload development just to finish SLS?

[/quote']

You see only one side of the coin, other side would be SLS is too expensive?

I don't know if NASA people are correct or not on their prices, maybe private companies that are manufacturing components for SLS are selling them on too high prices.

But I consider take both options, not just one, because I like space and NASA (well I really don't like NASA, but this is just example).

How about the entire existence of the CCDEV? Hell' date=' how about the fact that over the years NASA's budget has decreased more and more no matter what they do?

[/quote']

And what they did over last 10/20/30 years?

Our government wanted to slash funding to NASA before we even launched our first Saturn V. NASA's funding is just as likely to be cut during its height as it is during its lows' date=' and has been at both times.

NASA is underfunded because [b']our government has repeatedly shown it doesn't want to fund them, period. What NASA has to say about its own budget has nothing to do with it.

I know why, but I can't tell you here. It is same in my country with nuclear power plants, it is same reason why we can't have one

[Ten Key]

It's starting to get a little deep in here folks.

A cursory internet search failed to turn up much information on this Lunar Space Station. Are they talking about putting a station at the L2 point, or just in Lunar orbit? Aren't there problems with orbital stability due to the Moon's non-uniform gravity?

[fredinno]

fredinno, G'th, sojourner: what happens guys? you ass still hurts from our previous Orion discussion? Is still all there to be read it for those who wanna see how you eat your own words.

By the way.. I never derail the topic so not sure why you compare... it must be just another of your illogical arguments.

I dont need allies neither, because facts has only one side and I am very good chosing the right side each time.

when someone finish with all this, can we go back to the topic?

It's because he's so much like you.

- - - Updated - - -

It's starting to get a little deep in here folks.

A cursory internet search failed to turn up much information on this Lunar Space Station. Are they talking about putting a station at the L2 point, or just in Lunar orbit? Aren't there problems with orbital stability due to the Moon's non-uniform gravity?

Probably L2, more information on that part.

- - - Updated - - -

ö

I really don't see how they can secure funding for a 30 year project when there are presidential and mid-term elections every two years.

The whole idea of a landing in 2040 seems so pessimistic, yet when you look at the size of the project, it is madly optimistic compared to current funding levels. So I'm not going to get excited. This is never going to go through.

I agree, It's way too optimistic. It would be sustainable and reasonable with fewr launches, that's why I said they need to revive Mars Semi-Direct.

- - - Updated - - -

LOL. Seriously, who at NASA thought this would actually work? This is less likely to work than the constellation program was! How does anyone expect NASA to stick to a goal for over 20 years? They can't! And where do they expect to get funding from? Yeah, exactly. The only way they would have the motive and funding to pull this off is if some other nation starts a second space race, and to do that they will have to land humans on the moon! I would discuss the 'second space race' topic in more detail, but the forum rules prevent me from doing so.

Have they done the calculations on how much this would cost?

This much I can say for certain: NASA won't send another human beyond LEO for a long time. Unless they collaboratively work with someone else.

Perfect explanation is perfect.

NASA could prob send people BLEO w/o inyernational cooperation- just how useful a mission will be depends on international cooperation.

The launches alone for the mars/phobos section of the program would be 16 billion, assuming each is 500 million. Of course, Block II will probably be more expensive than block I.

[Vanamonde]

The discussion hasn't been anywhere near the topic for several pages now, and much of it's been personal attacks. Time to put this one aside.