Star citizen: Orion!

[Arugela]

Has anyone thought of making a ship based on this:

I'm thinking of starting one. Not sure where to begin.

I imagine this would turn into a very good low fuel capacity high mineral ship with endless travel capabilities! Question is can you get enough ore from asteroids for getting to destinations. Or do you use it as a refueling station in the roid belt!? A few small ships and docking bays on this would be pretty cool.

If it were real size I wonder how many ore containers it could hold. If not and you used say 1-2 large containers per spinning things it could be interesting. 18-36k mineral capacity on the potentially small side! 8)

If the mineral storages are capable of breaking off and connecting to another ship/station this could be good for refueler. Give them some mono and a drone core and let them hook up on their own. If you make enough of them you can then take the empties hook them back up and go refill. This could make a nice way to keep stations in the SS up and running.

I wonder if it will even fit in the hanger....

Do I replace the mainsail with the skipper and put in an aerospike or vice versa... Or maybe use a terrier instead. The engine fuelcontainer is definely to large for the placement. Not sure what it will need yet. I should probably compartmentalize it a bit so I can change it later.

Almost 25,000 thrust! If I can get it in space I wonder what I can do with it. And the shown weight is for empty fuel!

I'm going to pretend it is around 1/10th scale! Edit: BTW, I've just done the engine block and it's already approx 60k LF and 70k Ox! And this game seriously needs a fill all fuel empty all fuel button...

Anyone else doing Star Citizen ships. they have some cook ships and possibly capitol ships that might be nice.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Arugela

[Scotius]

I foresee problems with TWR - and possibly with rigidity of such long, narrow hull. But still, it would look absolutely impressive

[Arugela]

So far my biggest issue is actually getting into zero g and having the ability to control the direction I'm facing. It's impossible to get the engines sinked up in this or enough control to stop it from deviating.

TWR I'm worried about a bit too. But I think I can get it into orbit on low capacity then find a roid to mine. I think once in space she will be good.

Question. Does the thrust have the same affectiveness in space as on kerbin now. I've noticed this seems odd on previous craft I've done. It's like the gravity affect does not lower as you get out of the atmosphere at all.

Can you imagine if you could get those mining storage things actually rotating though. It could help alot with takeoff and stability.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Arugela

[Scotius]

I have no idea why anyone would need rotating storage containers. Living quarters - sure. But ore tanks? It's not like rocks need gravity for anything

As for the thrust issue - yes, since couple of last updates thrust of all engines is the same in atmosphere and void. Only Isp changes with decreasing pressure - which is closer to how things work in real spaceflight.

Have you considered launching this ship in parts, and assembling it by docking in orbit? Should be easier to launch three or two smaller pieces than one enormous. Then again - it will cause problems with hull rigidity. You would have to use mods to fix it.

[GoSlash27]

I have no idea why anyone would need rotating storage containers. Living quarters - sure. But ore tanks? It's not like rocks need gravity for anything .

Scotius, I'd imagine that would be necessary for the catalytic cracking and fuel distillation processes. I don't think either would work without centrifugal force.

Of course in KSP there is no need for that.

Best,

-Slashy

[Arugela]

So the affectiviness of thrust is not changed when going into orbit now at all? Should it be. What happened to it. And is it going to be changed back?

[Arugela]

Broke Kerban orbit on takeoff from the runway!! Can this get moved to the shared ships forum! I think I'll share the base ship. Especially since the engines are part of the annoying part of the build.

http://www./download/jm5zvc1akane705/Orion.craft

The problem was the engines alignment. I put up stuff to make certain they were symmetrical and the problems were solved. The control surfaces were compensating for impossible deviations when the engines were on and I couldn't fly after I was in orbit as I could somewhat control it in orbit with wing surfaces(which I've not removed).

To fly make sure it's pointed up like a rocket and takeoff. It won't matter which pad. The main part is the cockpit.

When ore tanks and converters are added. It will be able to near infinitely refill the fuel tanks and move to destinations! The main issue will be max weight for hauling max ore etc. And redesigning, if needed, to take advantage of the smaller engines. Assuming there is no use now for maneuvering to roids slowly etc.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Arugela

[Ripper2900]

Yes it is. Since 1.0 Isp is directly affecting thrust. Fuel flow remains constant, but lower Isp means lower thrust.

Pre-1.0 this was opposite.

[Arugela]

I've been flying it with ore containers some electricity and other stuff to convert ore to fuel. Is this not possible to do effectively on a moving ship... It seems like they can only work over a very long periods of time on a station with lots of time. Has anyone effectively done a large mining vessel? Are they designed to be limited to certain sized vessel. I can't for the life of me figure out why everything in this game is designed so restrictively. AT least it's hard to get replicas of Sci fi ships going. The engines don't seem to exist or something. It would be nice if they would make this more realistic. I wonder if that would help make these ships a bit more possible. Aren't the closed engines supposed to be alot stronger?

Edit: Why the hell do they haver to sabotage everyting everyone wants to make. I change the mammoths for 4 mainsails to get anotehr 4k thrust. And the stupid thing won't stop breaking. Nothing in this game can hold that thrust without breaking teh structure and destroying the engine. they have capped this stupid game so nobody can make anything but their idiotic little predetermined ship designs!! I'm fricking done with this game. I'm not playing a preguided stupid game. And yes I used struts. I added the strongest parts they have. Lots of them. It's the joints breaking. they have made sure you can't make anything they do not want you to. How the hell can you people support this game. This game has nothing to do with education. It is a fraud!

How about they do some real work in this game and let us build engines and structures on realistic terms how we want! I don't know how they do things with a straight face with how they have made this game. they need to put some actual work into this game. I'm not building more of these wobbly stupid ships because they don't want to develop their software... And the problem is not in the front of the ships. It's the stupid engines. There is no way to properly case and support or do anything realistic in this game. How about they stop maknig a lazy cheap simulator for flight and learn to do some fricking engineering and make this game right!

Edited September 27, 2015 by Arugela

[SlithyTove]

Hi Arugela,

It can be frustrating when things don't work out the way you want or expect in the game, but the rant against squad is misplaced. They have done a better job than anyone else to date at this.

It is definetly possible to build some wild contraptions that fly just fine in this game. I have a class e asteroid hauler miner which is about as large a thing as can be built in the vab but still has very little wobble.

One thing to keep in mind is that kerbal parts are representative of a grab bag of modern technology. So building Sci fi looking ships stock with it is tricky and usually results in comprised function. You can probably get your ship to fly by reinforcing the joints not just with struts, but with a beam and strut truss system. That compromises the looks you are after and part count though. If you want to maintain the look of the thing you will need mods to help.

[Arugela]

The problem is they all go in a line. in order to turn the items you need a weaker joint or sacrifice the ability to build further. That is where they f'ed everyone up and limited potential of thrust for any ship. You cannot concentrate in one area to get above a certain thrust per area. Hence you cannot build certain designs period. so replicas area a waist of time. Large ones at least. To solve this there would have to be a Cross shaped part with 80ms resistance(preferably one of those medel wire frames and or a beam.). And god knows what else they have to stop it even then. And they will 100% say they will not do it because it violates their game design. they are restricting things on purpose. It's not about visuals. My ship does not look anything like the ship outside of basic internal and engine/base item layout because there isn't more. It is already basic. But you cannot even do it with this sort of a base layout because they stubbornly insist on it to make a lazier less feature rich game and .... off their customers when they act like this is a more open game design wise.

There is nothing intelligent or challenging in the design part of these planes. It's restricted garbage. If It were possible i could make anything I wanted if I had the knowledge. They just want to do it the easy way and make the least game needed to make money. Sorry, if I thought a game backed up by NASA would be made to some real standard. They could have done a lot less than I could imagine just as easily and still get a very rich thorough game. But they chose to do the least they can do and call it work! And they went out of their way to put extra work into doing it!!

They have the limited parts they have so you can never go beyond certain design. They put all their effort into restricting everyone very thoroughly instead of doing real work and making the game more rich. They will not put in parts that allow more creative design or even remotely realistic options.

Sorry, but my "rant" is in no way misplaced. It's quite correct! You and others need to stop being so condescending and stop stifling criticism of the game and leave people alone! These are completely valid issues and I have every reason to be upset as this game and how it misrepresents itself horribly to potential buyers(Specifically me!). This even more so with how the fans mindlessly help purport an unrealistic view of this game.

Edit: And a little hint hint here. If you want to add most of these things you do not have to change the game. You get people, even for free as this is suppose to be educational, and modularize things with the new content and funnel into the existing format. Say a parts fabrication facility that uses realistic info on iron and titanium and other metals and how to use them to make parts then turn them into items that can be stuck in the existing framework. Anything would work. And it would not affect the existing game. All you need is enough info and the programming would then be easy to do. All the cost weight etc could be automated from the chosen items. The most of the work for such a thing is from the planning stage. This games design doesn't even use much of it. But at least you could get closer. The rest of the features could be easily added to an end item like electrical flow or other things if the game is every made more complicated. And in fact making such a thing would lay most of the groundwork and show probably a huge amount of the things that need to be added. And there are tons of people with education, most of which would help for free, who would help do it online.(Don't trust them if they want money. Properly educated people do things for the sake of doing it, which goes with the education theme!)

Edited September 27, 2015 by Arugela

[Vanamonde]

How-to discussion moved to the how-to subforum.

[Arugela]

http://www./download/6qibyo1e97p7hgd/Orion_test.craft

Here is the best I got. Until they put in better engines into the game it's a no go. Unless someone thinks they can do this better stock. I'd have to grab mods to make this. Although I just saw the thread on the Orion drive. That might actually make this feasible. That would be interesting!

If the Orion drive existed I would have to put the Orions where the Rhinos are, the Rhinos where the mainsails are, and the mainsails where the skippers are... Then I might have a chance at doing this depending how efficient the Orion engines are.

Edit: Just dled the Orion and it is way too overpowered.... This is why I don't like mods.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Arugela

[Arugela]

I think I have some new ideas of how to get around some of the problems. I may just have to start stacking the main engines and lower the full total. Then add lots of Struts to see if I can possibly get this thing to hold from the thrust. Here is a latest model. I'm stuck because I cannot test the separation stage for the engines that take it into orbit. The game crashes atm every time. Hopefully when the game engine is improved I can try. Also still using a mockup verion of the ship. Still have to design the electrical and how much storage it needs for ore compared to converts and stuff. Then probes etc and other functionalities.

So, sadly, I may not be able to finish this until performance improvements happen. This is always what stops me. And it's always parts counts! I cannot build small ships..

It's currently at 1.6k tons or so full of fuel and no ore. about 8k tons total for takeoff and up to 10k tons if I add more solid rocket boosters to aid it on the way up. It's got a base of 36 mammoth engines at the moment for takeoff and will have up to 96 of the largest solid rocket boosters on the bottom phase for takeoff. The model should weight approx. what the end ship will weigh give or take a few 100 tons.

I can currently get it above 70k easily and partially circularize but I can't separate the first phase to lighten and finish the orbit.

BTW, quick question, how tall can a ship be in the VAB? The actual Orion is 170m. If I figure out the structural problems I might be able to build one actual scale... 8) If only we had a larger building to build in... Maybe a space construction site... Or is that in the they won't make list. It's been a while since I've looked at that. (looking up now.) It's funny how they make the final upgrade unlimited but artificially limit us now in the VAB... Kind of sad.

http://www./download/v16sogdz3sz11ga/Orion_Frame.craft <-New version. (Closer to finished view.)

http://www./download/1t9lbf671650zvm/Orion_Launch_test.craft

The new body. The first(new) download:

Running into the same old problem. Too much weight for the fuel. How much do you need to get a vehicle like this useful(I currently have 366k fuel). I'm assuming asteroids do not contain 144000 ore also! 8p How do you get massive ships working in this game. Has anyone succesfully gotten a 2500ton+ ship done before? This will now weigh almost 3k total without ore. And up to near 5k with full ore and fuel if that is possible. A little more than I was expecting. I think it has a max potential of 4k delta v with no ore and only 2k with it full. This thing will have to be limited to the ore belt.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Arugela

[mattssheep4]

I foresee problems with TWR

Yoda is among us.

[xtoro]

Davon Throttle Control mod will adjust thrust to engines for you based on an offset CoM.

[sdj64]

Without some larger parts it will be a challenge. If you aren't opposed to mods, check out SpaceY and SpaceY Expanded or Behemoth Aerospace. Both have large parts in 3.75, 5, and even 7.5 and 10 meter sizes. Try to avoid clipping especially for a ship this big. You have the right idea - launch full of fuel with no ore and use its own engines to get to orbit. Rhino engines have great efficiency for their size, so use them for space propulsion, but you probably won't get more than 5k dV out of your ship without nuclear or ion power. Also remember that with full fuel and full ore you have more dV since you can convert your ore in flight while your ship transfers to another planet. 2k delta V with ore + convert + 4k delta V without ore. 6k dV is enough to go to any planet's orbit and back (except maybe Moho). If your ship already has the TWR to lift off of Kerbin, why not make it able to land on (and drill ore on) low gravity moons?

Good KSP ship design is more about what you can do without than what extras you can afford to bring along. Just remember: You are trying to replicate the form and function of a sci-fi ship with parts balanced to technology we have today. Are there any starships mining the asteroid belt today? No. Don't yell at KSP for being unrealistic or restrictive. Try mods, or try a different game if you want more sci-fi freedom.

[Arugela]

I had the whole ship basically finished and the game decided I wasn't allowed to make this. It destroyed my save without me saving over it... It just decided it wanted to destroy the data. I save it previously to a crash(Quite a bit before) and then reloaded later from an older save. When are they going to get off their butts and fix this game. This takes a lot of time and effort to make. This game isn't in beta anymore. They need to get their asses in gear.

I had 20 rhino engines stacked 4 sets of 5 and put them in the shortcut. That takes forever to do!

Stats:

Shortcuts:

1. Main thrusters 40,000 thrust (4x5Rhinos)
   
2. Takeoff/Secondary thrusters 32,000 thrust(2x3Mammoths)
   
3. Main Auxillery thrusters 12,000 thrust(4x2 Mainsails, May increase to 24,000)
   
4. Maneuvering thrusters 5,600 thrust(4x2 Skippers)
   
5. Reverse thrusters 5,000 thrust(4x5 Poodles)
   

Weight: 2,900tons approx.

Fuel Weigth: 1,780 tons

Empty Weight: 1,120 tons approx.(not including extra 10k liquid fuel for other ships/drones to refuel from. may change out for LF+OX Or multiple smaller fuel compartments for various ship needs.)

Ore storage: 144,000 units

Ore max Weigh: 1,440 tons

Max Weight: 4,340 tons approx. (For now!)

Parts: 900-1,000 parts approx.

Max Delta V: about 3,200 without ore.

Obviously there may not be roids in the game big enough for this ship to do anything useful(Or I'm assuming). But I wanted to get it working anyway. It would not be made to take off from kerbin on it's own(Although it basically can). Though maybe from smaller bodies like the mun or the second mun around kerbin to fill up or something with light gravity to really fill up potentially.

If I could get this ship working, *cough**cough*, It would make a nice movable space station!

I'm not yelling at KSP for being to unrealistic. I'm yelling at it for a being a bit too artificially restrictive. If that makes enough of a difference. And now for massive bugs they haven't worked out in years. They need to hire some people with proper knowledge to go over their entire code base and fix this stuff. Maybe NASA could help them... Or I would hope they could!

And, btw, I have run into lots of bugs along the way that are the fault of the developers. They have way too many bugs to fix in this game. Bugs that make it way more difficult sometimes than it should be to build something. The one above only being one of them that will make me restart the entire build from scratch, assuming I do, instead of only large chunks of the ship I've had to do previously, repeatedly!! I'm currently reinstalling the game to see if I can magically get my ship file back before restarting.... Luckily I built this thing very systematically. Unfortunately it is very tedious to build!

Edit: And I think I will be putting lots of mining stuff facing down on the rear so you can land on tail and mine on planets also. I was going to do that already, but hadn't gotten around to that phase yet before the game decided it had a serious problem with my craft file...

Edit2: It's a no go. The file is broken still for me. But others can try if they like. You can look at the model in the hanger at least.

Here is the broken craft file if anyone want to try their luck: (It's still not finished but you could try to get it into orbit with some help if it works and your computer can handle it.)

http://www./download/t44yelgms8hi8e7/Orion_resource_test.craft

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

http://www./download/0l6o99t99tnj5qs/Orion_Mining_Spacecraft.craft

Here is the redone version. It's not neccesarily sound structurally. But I can't move it without my computer crashing for some reason. This despite the fact it has a smaller parts count... It needs more struts apparently...(Actually, it may just need the electrical and reaction wheels moved inside the fuel tanks so they do not explode on runway.) If you can get it to work have at it. Sadly, when I try to turn it upright in the VAB or SPH the game crashes. So I cannot do test now that I have completed the vehicle. I could with the one that broke though. It is a bit odd... I really really hope the next patch brings some improvements so I can actually use my vehicles. All the things I try to build end up running into this same issue and I never get to really use them...(It appears restarting the computer solved it for now... I wonder if there is a memory leak or something.)

Stats:

Shortcuts:

1. Main thrusters 32,000 thrust (4x4Rhinos)
   
2. Takeoff/Secondary thrusters 32,000 thrust(2x3Mammoths)
   
3. Main Auxillery thrusters 24,000 thrust(4x4 Mainsails)
   
4. Maneuvering thrusters 5,600 thrust(4x2 Skippers)
   
5. Reverse thrusters 5,000 thrust(4x5 Poodles)
   

Weight: 3,200tons approx.

Fuel Weigth: 2,118 tons?

Empty Weight: 1,120 tons approx.(not including extra 10k liquid fuel for other ships/drones to refuel from. may change out for LF+OX Or multiple smaller fuel compartments for various ship needs.)

Ore storage: 144,000 units

Ore max Weigh: 1,440 tons

Max Weight: 4,640 tons approx. (For now!)

Parts: 700-8000 parts approx.

Max Delta V: about 3,700 without ore.

http://www./download/3j93qkd6740vsuu/The_Orion.craft

Messier version with some of the above problems fixed. Missing reverse engines. I restarted and got it to let me test once or twice but it's back to CTDing on me. I wish I could test fly this and get it to orbit to really use it but I can't until the game improves. I'm hoping the new patch, whenever it comes out, will improve the game enough for me to fly things.

I have engines setups to get this into orbit without using it's fuel. but I can't get them on without the computer going haywire on me... Maybe one day I will get to fly my ship. 8\ What is odd, and annoying, is I have traditionally flown 1k-2k+ parts ships with just alot of lag and low frame rates. Now I can't fly one with only 700-900 parts... Maybe it has to do with flipping the ship around(vertically) for takeoff... Or maybe it's old memory leaks or other issues or a combination thereof.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Arugela