Are MODs like KER, and tools like KTOT, cheating, or just un-Kerbal?

[Birdco_Space]

Greetings,

I recently went beyond stock KSP into the realm of Mods, using KER, and TriggerAU's Kerbal Alarm Clock, and his Trajectory optimization tool (porkchop plot).

I'm an engineer, thus having the realistic tools space flight engineers would have to design and fly rockets is very appealing. That said, these tools have made the game very easy for me, to the point where I can design a rocket that can get to a near circular 100km orbit by activating SAS point to Prograde, a short control input towards 090 degrees, and a couple of presses of the spacebar.

Its also taken all the mystery out of getting usable encounters with Moho. Its now my favorite place to go with 1.25m rockets.

These Mods add to the realism, as it allows very precise planning of missions. However, for some reason, I associate Kerbal spaceflight with strapping a bunch of boosters to a space capsule, hitting spacebar, and seeing where it takes you, and I almost feel dirty for using these tools.

Thoughts?

[Red Iron Crown]

Cheating is in your mind in a single player sandbox game. If it feel like cheating to you then it is, if it does not then it isn't.

I like the calculation tools and use some of them regularly. I know how to do most of the math manually, I see no virtue in making it tedious on myself. I also occasionally use MechJeb (though I prefer to pilot manually) and the ultimate cheat, HyperEdit. I don't feel like I'm a cheater at all though, because these things make the game more fun for me.

Play whichever way is most enjoyable for you, and don't worry if someone else thinks you are cheating.

[timsfitz]

This same thing gets asked every few weeks it seems.

[RCgothic]

KER just makes things easier. I'm an engineer too, and I still do real maths. But some things can't be calculated manually in real time. When you're trying to match a specific orbital period it's nice to have KER just spit out an answer after every thruster pulse.

Matching orbits exactly is vital to keep a satellite constellation in formation without requiring manual adjustment all the time. My most recent constellation should hold formation for 16000 orbits before its performance degrades enough to require tweaking.

Schlock did an issue on this:

It's good to know how to do a thing manually. But always doing it that way when you can automate is just tedious.

Edited September 29, 2015 by RCgothic

[Mipe]

NASA uses computers with sophisticated software for calculating stuff.

NASA is cheating!!!1one!

[Freshmeat]

Play the way you want to play. To me strapping on rockets is and seeing what happens is a grand waste of time, but your mileage may vary. I teach physics, and to me the entire appeal is that I can predict what will happen before I press spacebar. Before I got KER, I did calculations by spreadsheet, but I really do not see the point in not automating the calculations.

[Varsi]

KER does make game a lot easier which is why you have to counter it with a lot of other mods to make things harder.

In the end it's about how you enjoy playing KSP.

[KSK]

Even if you prefer the 'strap it on and go' approach to kerballed spaceflight, I highly recommend the basic readouts (apsides and time to reach them) that KER gives you. It's much nicer to actually fly your contraption all the way to a reliable orbit and enjoy watching the sky turn dark and Kerbin fall away behind you, without needing to swap out to the Map screen to adjust your course.

Personally, I'm firmly in the 'did it once by hand, see no point in doing it by hand every time' camp. I got myself to Duna with pen, paper and a plastic protractor against the screen. I much prefer having a proper launch window calculator and a VAB crew that can save me the tedium of recalculating available delta-V after every design iteration.

Edit - apses corrected to apsides after reading an unusually informative signature file!

Edited September 29, 2015 by KSK

[Bev7787]

Neither in fact, they're just convenient for scheduling things. It also adds a more realistic, sophisticated feel to the game.

[Thegamer211]

Seriously now, this thread is made every few weeks, and the only answer is and will always be

This is a singleplayer game.

The only one you can cheat in a single player game is yourself.

YOU choose what is cheating or not, and only for you.

Some people like Mechjeb.

Other's play full stock with no mod help.

Good for them.

These threads mostly turn out in a flame war or stuff.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Thegamer211

[78stonewobble]

It does bring up a point tho... Apart from rounding errors the simulation never changes (I presume) and what you predict is what you get...

You could possibly make a mod that introduces an element of randomness into it.

Engines and RCS thrusters being imprecise... possibly leaking a little sending you off course over time.

Varying kerbol output gently pushing things offcourse.

Random apollo 13 style oxygen tank explosions.

Basically AI with a license to screw with you and your welllaid plans (l4d director comes to mind).

Tho I suspect you could just overengineer the thing to account for every eventuality apart from deep space kraken rematerialization.

[Nathair]

Kerbal Alarm Clock

The only way I could see anyone thinking KAC is "cheating" is if they thought that the time warp system was made awkward intentionally in order to test the players reflexes.

[Harry Rhodan]

Is mayonnaise cheating?

[Thegamer211]

Is mayonnaise cheating?

No Patrick, mayonnaise is not cheating.

[OhioBob]

I purposely avoided mods for the first several months that I played the game because I thought they were kind of cheaty. However, after performing the same computation by hand for the hundredth time, there's not a whole lot left to prove anymore. Okay, I've proven to myself that I can plan, build and execute a mission without the assistance of mods, but that doesn't mean I want to go through that every time I play the game. I've since added a few mods to help alleviate the grind and make the game more enjoyable to play, most notably Kerbal Engineer Redux, Kerbal Alarm Clock, and Precise Node. I certainly do not consider it cheating. In fact, I would advocate making those three mods stock.

Edited September 29, 2015 by OhioBob

[Birdco_Space]

I purposely avoided mods for the first several months that I played the game because I thought they were kind of cheaty. However, after performing the same computation by hand for the hundredth time, there's not a whole left to prove anymore. Okay, I've proven to myself that I can plan, build and execute a mission without the assistance of mods, but that doesn't mean I want to go through that every time I play the game. I've since added a few mods to help alleviate the grind and make the game more enjoyable to play, most notably Kerbal Engineer Redux, Kerbal Alarm Clock, and Precise Node. I certainly do not consider it cheating. In fact, I would advocate making those three mods stock.

Agree. From what I've seen on the developer posts, there is some movement on including some KER-like functionality into the VAB interface. With TriggerAU joining the Squad, one could only hope his other wonderful tools will find their way into the stock game. I like his in-game lambert solver for optimal transfers.

[Luckless]

I like mods that take the tedious aspects out of the game, and make things feel more like launching real rockets. Personally I would rather ride a rocket controlled by a detailed and high precision redundant computer system (and merely watched by a human) than one flown by a horribly imprecise human watching crude data readouts.

I especially like tools that calculate masses and delta-V values for me. I can do all the math for filing my taxes by hand, but personally I much rather use a calculator...

[klgraham1013]

KER does make game a lot easier which is why you have to counter it with a lot of other mods to make things harder.

In the end it's about how you enjoy playing KSP.

To everyone saying KER makes the game easier. Tedium is not difficulty.

[Red Iron Crown]

To everyone saying KER makes the game easier. Tedium is not difficulty.

It's the calculation that makes it easier, whether with KER or by hand. Knowing how much delta-V your vessel has and how much is required for the mission is a big advantage over just slapping some parts together and hoping for the best.

I suppose rather than asking if calculation mods are "cheating", the question might be "is calculation cheating"?

For me it certainly isn't. The idea of attempting a complex mission that is mathematically excluded from success before I hit the spacebar is not appealing to me at all.

[regex]

KER isn't cheating. I could easily do the math myself using the information in the VAB/SPH, and I have, but why bother when it does that for me faster? As far as the porkchop plotter goes people have been doing that by hand (well, finding the optimal time to transfer, anyway) in KSP since other planets were added, and I did much the same early on, and it boils down to the same thing, ease.

If you feel like it's cheating remove the mods and play without them.

If you feel like other people are cheating shut down your browser and get some fresh air.

[JetJaguar]

No Patrick, mayonnaise is not cheating.

Mayonnaise isn't cheating as long as it's homemade, with eggs you collected from a chicken you raised yourself.

[Torgo]

The only way I could see anyone thinking KAC is "cheating" is if they thought that the time warp system was made awkward intentionally in order to test the players reflexes.

Time Warp is cheating! Fly those missions real time or don't fly them at all!

[JetJaguar]

It does bring up a point tho... Apart from rounding errors the simulation never changes (I presume) and what you predict is what you get...

You could possibly make a mod that introduces an element of randomness into it.

Engines and RCS thrusters being imprecise... possibly leaking a little sending you off course over time.

Varying kerbol output gently pushing things offcourse.

Random apollo 13 style oxygen tank explosions.

Basically AI with a license to screw with you and your welllaid plans (l4d director comes to mind).

Tho I suspect you could just overengineer the thing to account for every eventuality apart from deep space kraken rematerialization.

You get random failures with the DangIt and Entropy mods. I find that I do end up building redundancy into my craft as a result - several small batteries instead of one large one, spare oxygen tanks (for TAC Life Support), starting with capsule resources full but disabled and held in reserve, and so on.

[78stonewobble]

You get random failures with the DangIt and Entropy mods. I find that I do end up building redundancy into my craft as a result - several small batteries instead of one large one, spare oxygen tanks (for TAC Life Support), starting with capsule resources full but disabled and held in reserve, and so on.

Ah cool, didn't know about those.

In retrospect I should haven known someone allready thought of it

EDIT and PS: Nawp... need's to be selflaid eggs.

[OhioBob]

I suppose rather than asking if calculation mods are "cheating", the question might be "is calculation cheating"?

For me it certainly isn't. The idea of attempting a complex mission that is mathematically excluded from success before I hit the spacebar is not appealing to me at all.

I agree. I rarely have a mission failure because I take the time to do the math and carefully plan things out ahead of time. My greatest satisfaction comes when I have a mission that goes exactly as I planned it.