How to make ISRU more interesting/useful

[Wjolcz]

Not going to argue with Alshain. I will only say: Optional Life Support. Haven't seen a single person complaining about toggleables and heat sliders ruining their game, so I see no reason to force people to play the game with LS.

And to counter the incoming "but there are still parts loaded into RAM" argument: there would be 4 parts at maximum and they would use only two textures, if LS was done right.

I really don't want this thread to get locked though, so I will say that KAC is also needed if we ever going to get those crew rotation contracts.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Veeltch

[Alshain]

I'm really fine with it if it optional. I mean, I don't care if other people get it, as long as I don't have to use it. I don't like the idea of more useless parts eating away at my RAM but I can compromise on that I guess, if they keep it restrained (i.e. not like TAC).

But I will say if it is optional, it should be default off on everything except Hard mode (aka Grind mode), because that's basically what it is, tedious grind. If you want to turn it on in Normal-like game, it should be a custom setting. Also, it shouldn't add any extra steps when disabled. I don't want to have to remember to remove life support from my command pods before every launch.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Alshain

[monstah]

Haven't seen a single person complaining about toggleables and heat sliders ruining their game

Were you hiding under a rock(et) when the new aero/thermal came up?

[Guest]

In regards to life support, I think I'll renege on previous statements: life support shouldn't be in the game. Why? Squad won't do it right and that will make things harder for modders. Life support should be a detailed part of planning with real consequences (permadeath), and it should not be a concern that can be totally negated by ISRU, most especially an ISRU that pulls up "Ore" and magically transmutes it to whatever is needed.

Life support is a rich gameplay experience that requires other supporting systems, such as an alarm clock, proper planning utilities, and meaningful time constraints such as budgets, upkeep, mission programs, etc... KSP has none of those things, so life support will be as meaningless as the extra parts it introduces.

[Wjolcz]

Were you hiding under a rock(et) when the new aero/thermal came up?

Wasn't it more about reentries not being deadly enough though? If otherwise then I migh've blacked out during that time, or something.

[monstah]

Wasn't it more about reentries not being deadly enough though? If otherwise then I migh've blacked out during that time, or something.

Not only, there was also plenty of discussion over the fact that sliders and game options meant "there wasn't a core game experience to be compared across savegames", or some other bogus claim like that.

- - - Updated - - -

Life support is a rich gameplay experience that requires other supporting systems, such as an alarm clock, proper planning utilities, and meaningful time constraints such as budgets, upkeep, mission programs, etc...

All of which I wish where stock

[Laie]

One more thing: it was the arcadeyness that got me into KSP. I gradually cranked up the difficulty using mods, but I don't think I'd have sticked around if there had been antenna range and life support and all the other nasty things that set you up to fail.

In the beginning, building a rocket that works was challenge enough, thankyouverymuch.

I'd love if KSP somehow adopted RP-0 as the official "hard" mode. But the default experience should remain "just slap it together and fly". And like regex, I'm afraid of half-measures. Realism stuff should be done right, or not at all.

[Alshain]

Not only, there was also plenty of discussion over the fact that sliders and game options meant "there wasn't a core game experience to be compared across savegames", or some other bogus claim like that.

That isn't really a good reason anymore. That ended when they allowed heat to be altered. It used to be you could take any craft from any game and fly it in any other game regardless of settings. But with adjustable heat, it isn't the case anymore. If I build a craft without a heat shield it won't work on someone's game who cranks up the heat to max. I'm afraid they already set the precedent now.

[Guest]

All of which I wish where stock

Well, KSP doesn't put realism first, it puts ... something first, not sure what. It could be argued that is gameplay but the gameplay isn't really that good; hard mode is just normal mode with extra grind and other such things. Perhaps what they've put first is "cartooniness"? vOv

Anyway, in regards to OP, to make ISRU meaningful I'd like to see smaller parts that I can use for probe missions to, say, Eeloo. The parts right now are so ridiculously huge and unwieldy that I don't want them anywhere near my craft. They're tailor-made for large, tedious operations involving base building rather than for one-off probe sample return missions.

[monstah]

Well, KSP doesn't put realism first, it puts ... something first, not sure what. It could be argued that is gameplay but the gameplay isn't really that good; hard mode is just normal mode with extra grind and other such things. Perhaps what they've put first is "cartooniness"? vOv

Honestly? You might have been sarcastic there, but in my opinion you're right spot-on.

[Capt Snuggler]

Well, KSP doesn't put realism first, it puts ... something first, not sure what. It could be argued that is gameplay but the gameplay isn't really that good; hard mode is just normal mode with extra grind and other such things. Perhaps what they've put first is "cartooniness"? vOv

Anyway, in regards to OP, to make ISRU meaningful I'd like to see smaller parts that I can use for probe missions to, say, Eeloo. The parts right now are so ridiculously huge and unwieldy that I don't want them anywhere near my craft. They're tailor-made for large, tedious operations involving base building rather than for one-off probe sample return missions.

Honestly? You might have been sarcastic there, but in my opinion you're right spot-on.

yes. this is what I meant.

[Pthigrivi]

I think there have been good points made all around. Its important though to consider when making broad suggestions about the game that everyone has a different playstyle, and it isn't really useful to imagine that Squad is going to personally tailor KSP to any one person. Its about making the game as appealing and fun and engaging to as many people as possible. I happen to think RoverDude did a fantastic job on resources; they're easy to understand and they provide a lot of fun tradeoffs. I spent most of my early career setting up and refining a minmus mining system so Id only ever have to pay for fuel to LKO after that. The whole system of scanning and landing on high resource sites is great.

I also happen to think resources would dovetail marvelously into life support, which I still think is the biggest missing piece of the game left. I mean even if you can send one kerbal to Eeloo and back in a small lander can does that seem even remotely realistic? What's so great about the game is it hooks you on the simple stuff of putting engines on pods and you can geek out forever on making a real interplanetary space faring system, and a huge part of making that feel real is thinking about keeping kerbals alive. It would be priority #1 for any real mission and really should be included. I'm totally with others though that say it has to be done right. It needs to be toggleable and scalable, it needs the option for permadeth, and the option for less drastic consequences. It should be something new players could avoid thinking about until they were deeper into the game, but something that could still challenge veteran players. It also definitely needs an alarm clock system, which might as well be built into a more systematic mission planning UI. I took a crack drawing up a scheme that I think fulfills a lot of these requirements, and I think even Alshain would have fun with it. If you don't want to resupply a station, just put on a scrubber and a hydroponics bay. You'll have to think about power and sunlight levels, and it will come with a weight penalty, but in the end shouldn't it?

[NWM]

Is it a joke?

Using ISRU makes the game too easy - I think at least two kind of "raw resources" should be needed for the "used resources". Now, putting a refinery on an ore-field creates an infinite fuel depot without any hardness...

And yes, life support and their resources could make that ISRU eve more useful.