Uncontrollable rockets in sandbox mode

[BoilingOil]

Ok, so I was doing the tutorial mission "To the Mun, part 1" and at the end I wanted to *land* the vehicle. But no matter what path I take, I never have enough fuel to land in any other fashion than catastrophic.

So, then I went into Sandbox mode to do some experiments, in the hopes of finding out what I'm doing wrong.

Now here's the problem. EVERY vehicle that achieves an orbit around the Mun in sandbox, immediately stops responding to all controls! They are controlled by an unmanned unit with SAS and ALL other control options, and I made sure that they have sufficient electrical charge as well as plenty of fuel. Nevertheless, as soon as any kind of Munar orbit is achieved, all controllability vanishes and the object start spinning in any random direction. The SAS interface disappears, and right-clicking ANY part of the vessel is completely ignored as well.

I'm on version 1.0.4.861 (the latest?)

What am I doing wrong? I appreciate any kind of help that allows me to land on the Mun.

Edited November 3, 2015 by BoilingOil

[capi3101]

Very basics then - do you have solar panels and are they deployed, or have you included a sufficient number of RTGs? Have you remembered to take your craft all the way out of time-warp?

Sorry to ask what may sound like stupid questions, but it's good to get those checked off first.

[ElWanderer]

Do you have any mods installed e.g. RemoteTech?

[mabarry3]

RTGs

Randm side question - what is an RTG? The best answer I found was one of those everlasting generators, but that's at the end of the tech tree so doesn't seem to make sense when responding to people who very likely don't have access to that yet.

[ghpstage]

Randm side question - what is an RTG? The best answer I found was one of those everlasting generators, but that's at the end of the tech tree so doesn't seem to make sense when responding to people who very likely don't have access to that yet.

Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator. Yeah its one of those power generators from the end of the tech tree, but the OP did specify that this was being done on sandbox so the tech tree position means nothing.

I agree with Capi, check if you have enough power at that time, and check if time warp is still on.

Edited November 3, 2015 by ghpstage

[KerbMav]

Now here's the problem. EVERY vehicle that achieves an orbit around the Mun in sandbox, immediately stops responding to all controls! They are controlled by an unmanned unit with SAS and ALL other control options, and I made sure that they have sufficient electrical charge as well as plenty of fuel. Nevertheless, as soon as any kind of Munar orbit is achieved, all controllability vanishes and the object start spinning in any random direction. The SAS interface disappears, and right-clicking ANY part of the vessel is completely ignored as well.

This puzzles me the most.

So you reach the Mun and still have enough control to slow down to enter an orbit?

Are you using any mods? Is this the first time you play or did you update a previous version?

I think even in timewarp the right click menus - at least for some parts - still should open, just showing no options.

Also that your craft starts spinning points to a nasty bug or Kraken attack.

so doesn't seem to make sense when responding to people who very likely don't have access to that yet.

"So, then I went into Sandbox mode"

[Gojira1000]

That really does sound like time acceleration is on. Especially with the "cannot click" issue

[mabarry3]

Oh, My apologies then. I've only ever played career mode so I guess I don't see things in light of non-career mode, even if they say so .

That really does sound like time acceleration is on. Especially with the "cannot click" issue

You're still able to right click something with time acceleration on, just not able to do anything with it (all buttons don't exist). But you can still see its stats while in time warp.

[r_rolo1]

Edit: I see, it was sandbox. I really don't understand the issue. The only explanation I can think on is a UI mishap ...

[BoilingOil]

Ok, some good questions were asked... Let's get into those:

Electric charge: My first models had one 1K battery, and only the reaction wheels made use of some charge. When those rockets stopped responding directly upon achieving a stabile orbit, I added an extra battery because that *could* have been the problem. Those later models, however, stopped at EXACTLY the same moment: as I come out of the retrograde burn to circularize my orbit around the Mun!

I could see if I can get some light on my solar panels before reaching Mun, but I doubt that charge is the problem.

I currently have three mods, - HyperEdit, MechJeb & KerbalAlarmClock - which I installed *because* I was having problems. I hoped that one of them might help diagnose the issue, but I haven't even figured out how to do that yet.

I'm pretty sure that I'm not in time warp during my prograde/retrograde burns (to circularize my orbit around the Mun), because in warp you have less precise control. Yet when I come out of this burn, control is lost immediately and completely! But since I agree with some of you that pilot error (time warp being on) is the only possibility that seems to remain, I'll check that and make sure.

Thank you all for your fast responses. I'll go make another run, see if I can shed some light on this.

EDIT to Update:

I've built another rocket identical to the last, but I've altered the stages somewhat, so the solar panels are revealed/deployed once the ship is out of the atmosphere. When this model reached the Mun, the previous probe was still there. I made sure to be out of time warp, switched control to the old probe, and have NO control of it. Then I switched back to the new one, which was still controllable. I brought that into a stabile orbit without any issues. It is still accessible.

Therefor, regardless how unlikely it is that a single SAS unit drains TWO 1k batteries in the same time as it drains a single 1k bettery, that seems to be what must have happened. Right-clicking the batteries on the old probe does not do anything (so I can't see their charge), but the batteries on the new probe are full! So maybe it *is* a charge issue after all! Thank you all for helping me.

I'd like to share a very cheap and simple "Probe Lift" that has succeeded to send a probe out of the Kerbol system at a speed of 8200 m/s !! The probe is not much, and can't do anything special, but it has travelled 13 MILLION kilometers in only 4 days

This is it: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12767835/Probe%20Lift%20Mk_IIa.craft

Edited November 3, 2015 by BoilingOil
New information, solving the issue.

[Highguard]

The easiest way to check a vehicle's resources, including electrical charge, is to click the fuel-can icon at the top-right of the screen.

[BoilingOil]

JebDarned, I never thought of that, Highguard. You're right! I've just checked, and indeed, even the *double* batteries on the old inactive probe are totally void of charge.

It's sad that I cannot even open the Airstream protective shell (to reveal and use the solar panels), or throttle the engine, now all charge is gone. I had never expected that!

[ghpstage]

JebDarned, I never thought of that, Highguard. You're right! I've just checked, and indeed, even the *double* batteries on the old inactive probe are totally void of charge.

It's sad that I cannot even open the Airstream protective shell (to reveal and use the solar panels), or throttle the engine, now all charge is gone. I had never expected that!

Probe cores drain electric very quickly, for example in 6 hours (roughly travel time from LKO to Mun intercept) a Stayputnik will use up over 600 charge just to remain active. On top of that you have the time during orbit at both Kerbin and the Mun, and electricity used during manoeuvres. Keeping SAS active, especially if you are using vector holds (i.e. prograde/retrograde) tends to drain electricity at incredible rates.

Why would you carry a fairing to Munar orbit???

Edited November 3, 2015 by ghpstage

[arise257]

Probe cores drain electric very quickly, for example in 6 hours (roughly travel time from LKO to Mun intercept) a Stayputnik will use up over 600 charge just to remain active. On top of that you have the time during orbit at both Kerbin and the Mun, and electricity used during manoeuvres. Keeping SAS active, especially if you are using vector holds (i.e. prograde/retrograde) tends to drain electricity at incredible rates.

Why would you carry a fairing to Munar orbit???

My experience has been that fairings have no effect on solar panels. In other words, as long as you're facing the sun with a fairing on, the light still makes it to the panels. I once forgot to remove a fairing on my rocket's way to Minmus -- I had it on there to escape Kerbin with less resistance. Still worked.

[BoilingOil]

Why would you carry a fairing to Munar orbit???

Besides that I know not what a 'fairing' is, anything I currently sent up out of Kerbin's atmosphere, is just for me to learn something about how the game works. It serves no other purpose at all, especially since it is only Sandbox mode, and not a true achievement game-wise.

I don't want to torment any Kerbals by sending them to their death, if there is no need (I'm a sims2 player who has seldom allowed a sim to die). So I send probes made up of a core, a stabiliser, some batteries, solar panels and an antenna. Cheap, simple and lightweight.

I do not want to use RTGs, for example, because early on in career mode, I won't be able to afford those anyway, so I need to learn not to rely on them!

I realize that some of the stuff I *am* using is way too advanced for early career mode, so I'll have to stop using those eventually as well... But one has to start somewhere.

[BoilingOil]

My experience has been that fairings have no effect on solar panels. In other words, as long as you're facing the sun with a fairing on, the light still makes it to the panels. I once forgot to remove a fairing on my rocket's way to Minmus -- I had it on there to escape Kerbin with less resistance. Still worked.

Sorry about the double-post, but I just realized something.

If 'fairing' means to refer to the Airstream shells, then I use them to protect sensitive stuff like solar panels from the rigors of drag, due to me driving my rockets so hard.

Simple solar panels might indeed have worked, but I had installed the 2x3 panels. These need to be opened before they will catch any sunlight. While still in the shell, I can not access them, so they catch nothing.

So THAT is what I've learned now: make sure that there is some way for the batteries to recharge during the trip! My way didn't work, now I must do better

[capi3101]

You can generally set solar panels up to toggle via an action group; you can open all of them up in a single thwack that way. Granted, once you're in career you won't have access to custom action groups until the VAB is fully upgraded, but you can have basic ones at Level 2, and there's no harm in tying them into...say, RCS, Brakes or the Abort group. Ones you don't need for other purposes on a given craft.

Once you're out of atmo, there's no drag to worry about, so open them up as soon as you're safely above 70,000 meters (in my experience, you're okay to fire them up as low as 45,000 meters, but then again I use the FAR mod and its aerodynamic model). You shouldn't have problems after that unless you get out past the orbit of Jool (and if you are doing that this early in the game, you may or may not be doing it wrong). You may still run out of power while you're in planetary shadow, but the panels will regenerate it as soon as you're out in the sun again, and a little probe like what you're building shouldn't run out of juice that easily. Definitely not if you're adding 1000-2000 units of ElectricCharge.

The protected panels with casings aren't necessary if you don't intend for the probe to re-enter Kerbin's atmosphere; for that purpose, the unshielded ones will do just fine, though you'll need a fairing for the payload, and once deployed those panels stay deployed. Myself, I don't have much use for them.

[DancesWithSquirrels]

Keep at least one battery on the probe disabled (set that in the VAB, I tend to use the small one in the probe core itself), and if you run out of charge on all the rest you should still be able to recover. Wait until you have sunlight, enable that last charged battery, and quickly deploy your panels and rotate so they are exposed.

Less useful if your charge is depleted by a ion engine that was left on, though - disable your xenon tanks before enabling your battery in that case.

Edited November 3, 2015 by DancesWithSquirrels

[KerikBalm]

A little backwards for KSP... but manned craft have lower upkeep requirements than probes.

A manned craft you can keep focused and time warp all you want with no power supply, and it won't use any resources.

Probes drain resources constantly.

As to why 1 battery runs out at the same time as 2 batteries... are you really sure they ran out at the same time?

For the fairings/airstream shells: I'm not sure if the small fixed solar panels work in them or not. I know the small fixed ones work inside service bays, so the parts should be treated the same...

Obviously the extendable ones need to be extended first, and you cant do that in a fairing.

But most importantly... jettisoning the fairing will decrease mass.

I rarely use RTGs in career (I've got everything unlocked, have had everything unlocked for a long time), and instead use solar panels.

Now with ISRU, I'll use fuel cells as well for night time power. Only my Jool+ Eeloo missions use RTGs.

Solar is more mass efficient from about Dres and inward, and a battery should get you through the night part of an orbit, or any solar eclipse.

Since its sandbox, you shouldn't care too much about "simulating" a mission with a kerbal and no probe core... I suspect you wouldn't encounter that issue either in that case.

Its entirely possible to do a mission to Mun and back with no fuel cells, solar panels, or extra batteries... although in that case, I would use an enegine with an alternator (LV-T45?) so that your pod's battery is topped up after the trans-munar injection burn.

[DancesWithSquirrels]

With a crewed ship, you can get away with _no_ power for a Mun trip. Just put some RCS tanks and thrusters on, make certain you have a pilot who can manage SAS, and you're good to go.

Edit: Just tried it - ~7.9K delta-V (yes, overkill, I just slapped this together) with Kickback(s) first stage, Skipper, AV-R8s, and a tank for the second, Terrier and a FL-T800 for the third, no batteries, a single FL-R25 tank of monopropellant - and I finished a Mun round-trip with 1/3 of my monoprop left.

[BoilingOil]

You can generally set solar panels up to toggle via an action group ...<snip>

Tutorial mission so far (I'm at To the Mun, part 1 now) haven't gone into those groups yet. I'll find info on that soon enough, I imagine.

Once you're out of atmo, there's no drag to worry about, so open them up as soon as you're safely above 70,000 meters ...

Yeah, I realised that... later, when .... had already gone wrong a few times. I was not quite awake yet, perhaps. Now I just check for when the drag stops heating my rocket, and then tie opening the fairings in with the first stage-action after that. That fixes it, too!

You may still run out of power while you're in planetary shadow, but the panels will regenerate it as soon as you're out in the sun again, and a little probe like what you're building shouldn't run out of juice that easily. Definitely not if you're adding 1000-2000 units of ElectricCharge.

That's what I reckoned as well. If only I had used OX STAT panels in stead of OX 4W, or if I had just opened those panels before running out of power, everything would've been fine. I chose the 4W panels for their power generation, though - one panel has twice the output of an RTG. I just hadn't realized that even two Z-1k battery banks would run out before then. But I won't make that mistake again soon.

Keep at least one battery on the probe disabled (set that in the VAB, I tend to use the small one in the probe core itself), and if you run out of charge on all the rest you should still be able to recover. Wait until you have sunlight, enable that last charged battery, and quickly deploy your panels and rotate so they are exposed.

Less useful if your charge is depleted by a ion engine that was left on, though - disable your xenon tanks before enabling your battery in that case.

Those are good tips! I'll remember that. Thanks

A little backwards for KSP... but manned craft have lower upkeep requirements than probes.

As to why 1 battery runs out at the same time as 2 batteries... are you really sure they ran out at the same time?

For the fairings/airstream shells: I'm not sure if the small fixed solar panels work in them or not. I know the small fixed ones work inside service bays, so the parts should be treated the same...

Obviously the extendable ones need to be extended first, and you cant do that in a fairing.

But most importantly... jettisoning the fairing will decrease mass.

The batteries could have run out at any time while I was burning retrograde on the Mun. One wouldn't notice, as long as the engines are burning. Only once the burn ends, suddenly you're out of juice!

The fixed solar panels *seem* to work inside fairings too, but just to be sure, I open them before it becomes an issue, now. Jettisoning the fairing... only when you don't need what's under it, anymore.

- - - Updated - - -

With a crewed ship, you can get away with _no_ power for a Mun trip. Just put some RCS tanks and thrusters on, make certain you have a pilot who can manage SAS, and you're good to go.

Edit: Just tried it - ~7.9K delta-V (yes, overkill, I just slapped this together) with Kickback(s) first stage, Skipper, AV-R8s, and a tank for the second, Terrier and a FL-T800 for the third, no batteries, a single FL-R25 tank of monopropellant - and I finished a Mun round-trip with 1/3 of my monoprop left.

http://i.imgur.com/mWYAQ2V.png

Now that is interesting stuff. Yes, that ship is a bit of overkill, perhaps. But I've been building some monsters as well. I'll soon try to get a shot in of some of my contraptions.

I just wanted to start out with some remote stuff, no Kerbals, and no need to worry about getting back. I only went into Sandbox, because I wanted to figure something out that helps me land the boat in "To the Mun, part 1" without crashing. Then I got side-tracked by all the shinies

Edited November 4, 2015 by BoilingOil

[KerbMav]

What still puzzles me is that you ran out of power exactly the moment you entered Mun's orbit?

[ElWanderer]

The OX-STAT panels don't generate a lot of electricity, but it's usually worth having a few just in case you forget to deploy the main panels or end up pointing in such a way as the main panels are not able to receive sunlight.

Most engines have alternators that will generate electricity while you burn, but the engines you're likely to put on a Mun probe (e.g. the Terrier or Spark) don't have this capability.

One other thing: in between manoeuvres you can turn off SAS and (if necessary) disable any reaction wheels to reduce the rate at which charge is consumed. I'll also note that the advanced SAS modes (anything other than stability assist) will chew through charge very quickly as they're never satisfied that you're pointing in exactly the right direction.

[BoilingOil]

What still puzzles me is that you ran out of power exactly the moment you entered Mun's orbit?

Puzzles me, too, KerbMav. Why would the second probe, which was identical to the first, except for the extra Z-1k battery, run out of juice at exactly the same time? To me, it seemed unreasonable to believe that that was the case.

But if we take into account that the engines do supply a little charge, I can imagine that the charge did indeed run out at different times, but just the little bit from the engines kept everything going. Once I stopped using the engines, because I had achieved a stable orbit, it took a few seconds for the juice to evaporate. Unsatisfactory, but that's the best explanation I can come up with.

- - - Updated - - -

The OX-STAT panels don't generate a lot of electricity, but it's usually worth having a few just in case you forget to deploy the main panels or end up pointing in such a way as the main panels are not able to receive sunlight.

Most engines have alternators that will generate electricity while you burn, but the engines you're likely to put on a Mun probe (e.g. the Terrier or Spark) don't have this capability.

One other thing: in between manoeuvres you can turn off SAS and (if necessary) disable any reaction wheels to reduce the rate at which charge is consumed. I'll also note that the advanced SAS modes (anything other than stability assist) will chew through charge very quickly as they're never satisfied that you're pointing in exactly the right direction.

I wasn't using terriers or sparks. Even the heavier engines that I've been using, haven't succeeded in reducing my velocity to 0, so I hadn't considered trying the weaker ones, yet.

As for the solar panels... in retrospect, I even wonder if the OX-4L and OX-4W (when opened at the right time) were just showing off: I had four of them, for 384 charge/minute, and then I didn't use them. A few STATs, even if only a few of them are partially lit, seem to be quite enough.

As for the SAS stuff: I knew that I could shut them off temporarily, but it didn't occur to me that I might need to! But you're right: Real-time, the trip may take a few minutes for us, but from the Kerbal perspective, it takes hours (up to two days, even) to get to the Mun. Running even at 2 or 3 charge per minute, that would definitely be enough to deplete the batteries.

- - - Updated - - -

I've realized something... The main part of the trip - the actual transfer from one orbit to the other - takes place in Time Warp, right? I've noticed that during Time Warp, things like SAS-functions don't seem to work properly; at the end of the trip, when you get out of Warp, they need to suddenly correct for all the missed updates, frantically correcting the ship's orientation. If their charge consumption was equally stunted, that might explain the entire incident, like this:

During the Warp, the SAS functions and their charge consumption are ignored, and your engine isn't running, so your batteries don't change. Then you come out of warp, SAS suddenly needs to catch up as you turn retrograde to circularise your orbit, and before that manages to drain your batteies in no time, you start burning, so you keep just a few charge coming in... as long as your engine runs, nothing is wrong. But eventually, the burn ends, and then those last few drops of generated charge are depleted in no time!

[KerikBalm]

I wasn't using terriers or sparks. Even the heavier engines that I've been using, haven't succeeded in reducing my velocity to 0, so I hadn't considered trying the weaker ones, yet.

Well.. here's another issue entirely...

Are you saying you are running out of fuel as you achieve orbit around Mun/ try to land on it?

The smaller LV-909 has a higher Isp, and less mass, so you get more thrust per unit fuel, and you need less thrust because its less mass.

If you "haven't succeeded in reducing my velocity to 0" ... then a smaller engine may be exactly what you need.

Or do you mean when you deorbit and try to land, you hit the ground before you've had enough time to slow down, and thus want a higher TWR?

For a probe or 1 kerbal lander, a LV-909 should give you plenty of TWR, and the problem has got to be your flight profile.

If you are using a larger engine, then the burn should be refilling your batteries.

If your engine does not have an alternator, then the power could runout during the burn, and you wouldn't be able to change the throttle on the engine... it would keep burning until its out of fuel.

Do you have a craft file? I'd like to take a look at this rather than asking about it.