Suggestion..: Stock delta V calculator.

[Peder]

Hello.

I did my self play more than 500+ houres in ksp in steam and in the version prior to steam integration.

But versions have in common is that I never used mods such as "kerbal engineer or mecjeb" to calculate delta V.

So all my space travel was based upon "trial and error".

with other words I build something and see how it goes and then I continue building on that design so go further and further into space.

And this work good I have visited most planets in the game this way without knowing my Delta V or calculated fuel requirements ect.

However recently I tried kerbal engineer and wow it is not so much more easy to design something since I have the Delta V number for every stage.

with other words I no longer need to "guess" and fail and try again and again. Now all i have to do is to either look up the required delta v on some charts, or my self send up a rocket and see

how much delta v that is required to example get into orbit. Actual I prefer my self to explore and find out how much delta v is required compared to just read about it.

Anyway, I like to suggest that the stock game will get a build in delta V calculator so that it could become a bit more easy for people to design ships.

I think this might make it a little more fun for some people since they will have greater success building ships and travel to other planets ( especially further away than mum and minmus ).

Well what do you guys think about a build in "stock delta v calculator" ??

ps. ksp 1.0.5 almost here... cant wait ;-)

[Gaarst]

Yes, for the millionth time: yes please.

[Jovus]

Absolutely. No question.

If Squad still wants to keep the guess and check method that they've mentioned liking so much in the past, the solution is simple: provide delta v stats for the rocket, but not for tasks. (Like getting to orbit, transferring to another body, etc.) At least that way people can replicate their results and understand what variables on which they operate.

[Umlüx]

personally i think there is no need for one.

so all the elitist pricks who think that would be cheating (lol) and should be damned to the seven hells can still enjoy their unsullied vanilla game

and all the others (like me) use mods anyway.

[Sobriquet]

You hearing this Squad? The lack of a deltaV meter detracts from the fun, it does not add to it. Please address this.

[Renegrade]

Meh - with the addition of a mass indicator in the VAB, it's a lot less necessary than it used to be. It's not like it's hard to calculate it by hand. ( ln(wet/dry)*isp*9.8 - and you can pre-multiply isp*9.8 for calculations involving the same engine, or even ballpark that to ~2950 for chemical rockets)

I'd like to point out the example of the stock "applauncher" toolbar as a cautionary tale against stock features. Before that came along, mods either had to make their own button, or use Blizzy's toolbar (requiring a second download). So, Squad made the buttons in the upper right - but they don't have sub-menus, don't have auto-hide, are stuck in the upper right and are very limited. Now there are even mods to help overcome some of the stock applauncher's flaws.

A stock delta-v indicator would probably not work, end up permanently consuming screen real estate, and uselessly consume extra CPU cycles. Keep in mind that the stock resource monitor itself barely works - the 'current stage only' button is a massive crapshoot and extremely temperamental. Do we really want Squad to waste time and resources on something we're going to have to replace with a mod in the end anyhow?

On the other hand, it wouldn't be very hard for Squad to change the formatting on the VAB mass display to have a second digit after the decimal point.

[klgraham1013]

Squad, just hire Cybutek already.

[GoSlash27]

Peder,

This is neither "for" or "against" a stock DV calculator, but you didn't have to resort to trial and error merely because you didn't have a built-in calculator. You could've done the math on the side or even (the way I do it) used the math to design the ship.

Best,

-Slashy

[Red Iron Crown]

A delta-V calculator and a transfer plotter are sorely needed. Lack of them is the reason so few players go interplanetary, IMO.

[Sanic]

Just get KER.

Nuff said.

[adsii1970]

Peder,

This is neither "for" or "against" a stock DV calculator, but you didn't have to resort to trial and error merely because you didn't have a built-in calculator. You could've done the math on the side or even (the way I do it) used the math to design the ship.

Who needs stinkin' math?

Actually, you're correct. There are a few mods I use that has become a "must have" on every interplanetary flight, such as the Bussard collector mod, extra stowed solar panels, and reactors. I probably design my ships with more fuel than they probably need, more redundant parts, and even extra landers just because I am overly paranoid about forgetting something.

A delta-V calculator and a transfer plotter are sorely needed. Lack of them is the reason so few players go interplanetary, IMO.

No, not for me. It is more about the headaches of interplanetary flight - to the extent that I created a checklist to help design craft AND discovered that KAC (Kerbal Alarm Clock) is a necessity. Interplanetary flight is definitely time consuming... Many players of KSP probably have an attention span like mine... there are times that if I cannot get there within thirty minutes or an hour of game time...

Just get KER.

Nuff said.

Yup. That's good advice.

[Guest]

Well... Yeah, my stance has again changed on an issue like this, like so many others recently. Stock shouldn't have a delta-V calculator. Reason: It won't hold a candle to KER because the options will be limited and it will need continuous updating to handle the odd edge cases that KSP players come up with. The mass indicators in the VAB are enough.

[Red Iron Crown]

Well... Yeah, my stance has again changed on an issue like this, like so many others recently. Stock shouldn't have a delta-V calculator. Reason: It won't hold a candle to KER because the options will be limited and it will need continuous updating to handle the odd edge cases that KSP players come up with. The mass indicators in the VAB are enough.

I think that a stock one would be less data-rich as KER and I would keep using the mod, but I still think stock needs one. If only for those players who won't use mods and the eventual console crowd who likely won't be able to.

[Guest]

I think that a stock one would be less data-rich as KER and I would keep using the mod, but I still think stock needs one. If only for those players who won't use mods and the eventual console crowd who likely won't be able to.

The amount of development time to account for edge cases will be severe though, and will result in many cries of bugs. Maybe after the resource crawling is fixed it'll be easier, but even that has its own issues. KER/MJ had to go through the same things and they have the benefit of a very focused dev cycle with frequent releases. KSP's dev cycle is nothing like, say, Factorio where dev releases are frequent to address relatively minor bugs.

[Red Iron Crown]

The amount of development time to account for edge cases will be severe though, and will result in many cries of bugs. Maybe after the resource crawling is fixed it'll be easier, but even that has its own issues. KER/MJ had to go through the same things and they have the benefit of a very focused dev cycle with frequent releases. KSP's dev cycle is nothing like, say, Factorio where dev releases are frequent to address relatively minor bugs.

Maybe? Lately the trend seems to be "hire a modder to add a feature", so maybe that'll be how the dV meter thing works out, written by someone who has some good experience with the problem.

[KerbalEssences]

It's cool if you learn something while playing a game but it is a completely different story if you have to learn something to play. If you allready know what delta v is, it is no big deal. However, if you don't know what delta v is (and the vast majority doesn't know that before buying the game), you have to learn it and that's bascially math. Adding math to a game is playing with fire. There are some people who will like it but others will run away and maybe return with pitch forks. This means they will tell their friends this game requires you to learn math. It's a school game! I think everybody here knows how fun games are you play in maths class. I remember when I was a kid and I played chess with my father. It was actually some kind of funny. I liked that horse figure in particular (some left memories). Then I had to play chess in school. Never played it again.

However, these are just my experiences and I can certainly not speak for many. I personally don't play with Engineer nor do I calculate anything. However, i don't think bad about people who do. They get much more complex stuff done which I wouldn't even attempt. I personally just fear to lose interest in KSP when everything becomes possible. I'm that kind of guy who gets bored quickly as soon as he figures out he can do it for sure. Everyone is different and someone else can actually get motivated from that.

I don't know how I would deal with it if I was Squad and I'm glad I don't have to.

Edited November 9, 2015 by KerbalEssences

[klgraham1013]

The amount of development time to account for edge cases will be severe though, and will result in many cries of bugs. Maybe after the resource crawling is fixed it'll be easier, but even that has its own issues. KER/MJ had to go through the same things and they have the benefit of a very focused dev cycle with frequent releases. KSP's dev cycle is nothing like, say, Factorio where dev releases are frequent to address relatively minor bugs.

In that case, couldn't they just hire the modders who have already gone through the trouble?

[Guest]

In that case, couldn't they just hire the modders who have already gone through the trouble?

Sure, that would probably reduce the dev cycle. Unfortunately that code, IIRC, is GPL'd so it would take a consensus of all those that had worked on it to relicense for KSP.

[Pthigrivi]

My negativity about the state of the game was overcome by my pessimism it will ever improve.

The story of regex.

[Guest]

The story of regex.

Think about it. All those nice features in Engineer, like changing the planet, or switching to aero mode, or choosing the atmospheric pressure, or hiding/showing empty stages, or having the burn times, all of that would not be implemented in stock. The devs do not believe in exposing that sort of information. At best you'd probably get vacuum delta-V for each stage with an engine and it'd only be available on the right-click menu of an engine.

[Superfluous J]

I don't think the game NEEDS a stock dV calculator in flight but it should have one in the VAB, and there should be a visual way to do interplanetary transfers as well, such as the long-standing suggestion by many to allow "planning nodes" which are just like maneuver nodes, but done in the tracking station on planet orbital paths.

The stock game doesn't need to tell me what biome I'm going to land in 3 SOIs away*, or any of the other 500 (very useful) things KER does. I do think it should have some sort of indication - at least in the VAB - how far your rocket can be expected to go on a stage-by-stage basis. dV is obvious for this, along with a "where do you want to go?" that then tells you how much dV a good player should spend on each phase of that (essentially an in-game implementation of WAC's dV maps) should be stock. There is no way anybody will ever convince me otherwise, and "Squad sux" isn't an argument I'll even consider.

*I'm not actually positive KER would do this. If I had to guess, I'd guess in fact that it doesn't. I'm leaving it in however because the hyperbole of it amuses me.

[Guest]

I don't think the game NEEDS a stock dV calculator in flight but it should have one in the VAB

I thought Max had already set in stone the engineers would be learning something about delta-V... Which implies to me that it would only be in flight and only with a certain level of experience of engineer.

and there should be a visual way to do interplanetary transfers as well, such as the long-standing suggestion by many to allow "planning nodes" which are just like maneuver nodes, but done in the tracking station on planet orbital paths.

That would be much more useful than a stock delta-V display.

The stock game doesn't need to tell me what biome I'm going to land in 3 SOIs away*, or any of the other 500 (very useful) things KER does.

So basically you'd just install KER anyway.

I keep forgetting KSP is on other platforms, probably the biggest argument for. Hopefully it'll have a similar module to the aerodynamic simulation so it can be shut off; poorly optimized (or double the) delta-V calculations would ruin performance, especially with resource crawling.

[Red Iron Crown]

I keep forgetting KSP is on other platforms, probably the biggest argument for. Hopefully it'll have a similar module to the aerodynamic simulation so it can be shut off; poorly optimized (or double the) delta-V calculations would ruin performance, especially with resource crawling.

I believe KER does it this way, the dV vessel simulation and other calculations are only done when a display showing them is visible.

[Superfluous J]

I thought Max had already set in stone the engineers would be learning something about delta-V... Which implies to me that it would only be in flight and only with a certain level of experience of engineer.

I didn't say it SHOULDN'T be there or WON'T, just that I don't think it's needed. Not like dV in the VAB is needed. As in, I will not ever consider the game complete without it.

So basically you'd just install KER anyway.

Yes. But I'll also be about 1000x happier while doing "stock only" challenges.