Jon144 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 As you can see there are wing surfaces under the shuttle not producing lift. They produced lift perfectly fine in the old version of the game. Because of this it can no longer fly properly. Is this a bug or a feature? In the meantime my shuttle will not work as it did before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal_vager Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Hi Jon144, the aero overlay lines are inaccurate, as such they are not a reliable indicator of lift or drag.You can enable action menu aero force values in the debug panel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon144 Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) Thanks Sal. But you are wrong here. Now when I fly it the aero forces instantly kick in at random times. The shuttle, previously unable to pull up at all, tumbles backwards when this happens. I will get screenshots soon.- - - Updated - - -Here is when the shuttle has no forward lift. Therefore it is impossible to pull up. As you can see I am pulling back completely. Suddenly, out of nowhere the aerodynamics forces kick in and send the shuttle doing back-flips.The aero-forces are not lying.Here is the craft file if you want to replicate the problem: https://www.dropbox.com/s/k1wkkk1gdwblmy0/Kerlantis%20V5%20%28LPC%29.craft?dl=0The shuttle is not balanced right now but it should demonstrate the bug. Edited November 10, 2015 by Jon144 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal_vager Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Actually I'm really not, as I discussed this with the guy who wrote the overlay, but if your craft has an issue then maybe we can find what it is, but the overlay isn't going to be the tool that helps in this regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon144 Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) Actually I'm really not, as I discussed this with the guy who wrote the overlay, but if your craft has an issue then maybe we can find what it is, but the overlay isn't going to be the tool that helps in this regard.You might not be wrong that the aero-lines are inaccurate but they are telling the truth in this situation. If they are not truthful then why are the wings going from creating no lift to a ton of lift? I'm not talking in terms of the aerodynamics forces overlay. You can tell from simply flying it. The shuttle goes from doing an unresponsive nose-dive to back-flipping from too much lift in an instant during descent.I'm trying to be as clear with you as possible. I'm not judging this off of the aerodynamics overlay. I was confused while I was flying it when it fell to the ground like a brick then all the sudden spun around out of control. Its only after this that I replicated the event with the aerodynamics overlay open. What it shows corresponds with what flying the plane is like. No lift to lift out of absolutely nowhere.I'll see if I can record a video for you. Edited November 10, 2015 by Jon144 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal_vager Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) What you can do is check for the word "occluded" on your wing parts, as you are using a bay and the wings look clipped in, some may be occluded and not producing lift.And I have just been told that the wing occlusion info didn't make it in... Edited November 10, 2015 by sal_vager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon144 Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 What you can do is check for the word "occluded" on your wing parts, as you are using a bay and the wings look clipped in, some may be occluded and not producing lift.And I have just been told that the wing occlusion info didn't make it in...Well they are not entirely inside. This shuttle is identical aerodynamically to how it was last update. And as I recall in the last version of the game wings could be occluded too. It doesn't explain why they out of nowhere start producing lift at a certain point even though their position relative to the cargo bay doesn't change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal_vager Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 There were a lot of fixes to the bays, you really don't want anything poking into a bay unless you want it occluded, but if it's fully outside it should be fine.I have a few guys looking into this one for you, my guess is that many of the wing parts are right on the edge of being "in" the bay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon144 Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 There were a lot of fixes to the bays, you really don't want anything poking into a bay unless you want it occluded, but if it's fully outside it should be fine.I have a few guys looking into this one for you, my guess is that many of the wing parts are right on the edge of being "in" the bay.That is unfortunate. Thank you very much for your help. But I guess the update killed my shuttle. Which is unfortunate since I really wanted to try out the new SSMEs. The wings might poke in just a little bit to be aesthetic with the rest of the craft. This is not a full conclusion though because as you can see there are several wings that don't poke in with the cargo bay at all but they are affected in the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal_vager Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 It may still be salvageable, and not the bay occlusion, it may be worth removing some of the front wings and trying to get the shuttles CoM forwards, as it's right on the tail currently.With the tail LFO removed and some ballast in the nose the shuttle is flying much much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon144 Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) It may still be salvageable, and not the bay occlusion, it may be worth removing some of the front wings and trying to get the shuttles CoM forwards, as it's right on the tail currently.With the tail LFO removed and some ballast in the nose the shuttle is flying much much better.That is the problem. I could do that to compensate for when the wings don't produce any lift. But then once they decide to do so out of nowhere the balance fix won't work because it completely changes the CoL. And trying your fix would require an entire re-design of the shuttle. Something I don't have the time or will to do at the moment. Especially since it could have the same problem.Basically. I am screwed. Edited November 10, 2015 by Jon144 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NathanKell Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Also, I find it very hard to believe that this shuttle is identical aerodynamically to the last update...when it's using parts not in the last update.for instance, the SSMEs are very low drag, that will shift CoP forwards, making it unstable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon144 Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) Also, I find it very hard to believe that this shuttle is identical aerodynamically to the last update...when it's using parts not in the last update.for instance, the SSMEs are very low drag, that will shift CoP forwards, making it unstable.Very good point NathanKell! I will replicate the problem with the last version of the shuttle exactly. Thank you for your continued support.I am having the same results using the last version of the shuttle that used parts only available in the last version of the game.Another weird bug I am seeing is how only some of the RCS ports are creating thrust. While the others aren't. They are all toggled on too.I am really thinking occlusion too. But as you can clearly see there are plenty of wings not occluded that should be providing lift. Edited November 10, 2015 by Jon144 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal_vager Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 This is actually a really nice glider (with some tanks in the nose), but a bit draggy from all the parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon144 Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 This is actually a really nice glider (with some tanks in the nose), but a bit draggy from all the parts.Yes! exactly how it used to work and how it should work. Curious how I am not finding the same results? This shuttle was actually featured on KSP's Facebook page a few months back.https://www.facebook.com/kerbalspaceprogram/photos/pb.240760572609841.-2207520000.1447116422./1051370298215527/?type=3&theater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal_vager Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Well I had to add ballast, and remove the fuel from the back.Javascript is disabled. View full album Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon144 Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) Well I had to add ballast, and remove the fuel from the back.http://imgur.com/a/Bn5O5That wasn't what I was implying. How did you get the front wing parts producing lift? That is my only problem.My problem is that the shuttle only is producing lift in the rear for some reason (occlusion perhaps?) and as a result is too front heavy.Good to see it is still salvageable though. But if the lift was working like it is in your version of the game I wouldn't need to worry about it.Do you have different results flying the older version? https://www.dropbox.com/s/dsf35ho3b1bx9v0/Kerlantis.craft?dl=0 Edited November 10, 2015 by Jon144 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal_vager Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 All i did was put a pair of FL-T400's with some nosecones on them on the cockpit (radially) then sink them in with the offset tool, you could probably hide your monoprop in there and save some for CoM balancing.The other change you can see in the pics, the fuel and oxy were removed, moving the CoM away from the back end.With the shuttle better balanced for 1.0.5 it flew beautifully, albeit slowly.Didn't really need SAS either, just some trim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon144 Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) All i did was put a pair of FL-T400's with some nosecones on them on the cockpit (radially) then sink them in with the offset tool, you could probably hide your monoprop in there and save some for CoM balancing.The other change you can see in the pics, the fuel and oxy were removed, moving the CoM away from the back end.With the shuttle better balanced for 1.0.5 it flew beautifully, albeit slowly.Didn't really need SAS either, just some trim.Again. Not my problem. In my version of the game the absence of lift in the front is actually causing it to be too front heavy. But in your version of the game the lift is behaving properly so it is only a matter of balance.Again I am curious what results you will have flying the old version of the shuttle. If the lift behaves properly for you again I should consider reinstalling the game. Edited November 10, 2015 by Jon144 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal_vager Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Well, it kinda is your problem because it's your craft, and you need to fix it to work in 1.0.5, the changes I described are a good place to start Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon144 Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) Well, it kinda is your problem because it's your craft, and you need to fix it to work in 1.0.5, the changes I described are a good place to start They are not my problem. The shuttle worked perfectly fine in the last version of the game. I don't think you are understanding the problem with the aerodynamics? With the bug I have discovered here fixing the craft is not possible.I'm not trying to be rude here. I really appreciate your help, but it doesn't seem like you are getting the problem. Adding frontal ballast isn't going to help balance a front-heavy aircraft.However from your screenshots the aerodynamics are working how they should. But the aerodynamics are obviously not working the same in my game. So that is not my fault since I didn't code this game. Edited November 10, 2015 by Jon144 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal_vager Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 The craft is working fine, if it wasn't nosediving you might see the lines, try opening the cargobay and see if that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon144 Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 The craft is working fine, if it wasn't nosediving you might see the lines, try opening the cargobay and see if that helps.I'm still not sure that you understand. I wasn't nose-diving it on purpose. It was physically impossible to pull up because it didn't have any frontal lift. I'm not trying to fool you here. The lift in the front in my version is just non-existent. No matter what angle it flies at. It isn't nose-diving because I am making it. It is just falling to the ground because the aerodynamics or lack there of cause it to fall to the ground uncontrollably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal_vager Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 The lift lines are inside the bay, open it and you will see.Craft are not guaranteed to work from one update to the next, most will but some like yours will need work, I know you don't want to hear this but there's no bug here, the shuttle needs fixing up, if you try it you'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon144 Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 The lift lines are inside the bay, open it and you will see.No they aren't. I'm not as naive as you think. That was the first thing I did to check. If this is true according to you then why are those side wings in-front of the delta wings not producing lift? You don't need to look inside of the cargo bay to see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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