Gah, radiators!

[martinborgen]

Mybe I missed something earlier, but suddenly I need radiators to all my IRSU ships! I never added them before, because I did not see the point, but now, I need to retrofit a bunch of them - and some are not very retrofittable (i.e. The Klaw -sollution). Before I go about klawing radiator panels, can someone explain how this heat transfer system works? I don't want connecting parts getting destroyed by overheating and such.

[moogoob]

Good question, now that the heating system introduced so vigorously in 1.0 is finally being re-instated properly. I need to do some experiments with nuke tugs too it seems.

Edited November 14, 2015 by moogoob
added the word "properly"

[Korizan]

Hmmm I haven't ran into that problem yet.

I have them on stations and on bases and they appear to be working normally.

Under which conditions are they overheating ?

[RoverDude]

if you look at radiators in the VAB, they will show both their radiative and core cooling (measured in kW.). For example, I believe the small deployable one can cool 50kw of core heat. A drill at peak efficiency (according to it's VAB notes) generates 100kw. so you need two deployable smalls to have your drill hit equilibrium.

Rinse and repeat for ISRUs and other radiator types, figure out what works best for you.

- - - Updated - - -

(addendum)

this math also works for any non-stock parts (mods) that utilize the new core thermal system - so things like nuke reactors, etc.

[Scotius]

RoverDude - are Engineer's skill levels still affecting thermal management? It stands to reason an experienced, 4-stars Engineer will keep ISRU rig going cooler than the same rig with no Engineer onboard. (I can't run my game for the next couple of days to check it myself )

[RoverDude]

Engineers affect overall efficiency, but do not change the thermodynamics of the drill.

[nigelvn]

great tip, I always just slap some on and hope it works

[martinborgen]

if you look at radiators in the VAB, they will show both their radiative and core cooling (measured in kW.). For example, I believe the small deployable one can cool 50kw of core heat. A drill at peak efficiency (according to it's VAB notes) generates 100kw. so you need two deployable smalls to have your drill hit equilibrium.

Rinse and repeat for ISRUs and other radiator types, figure out what works best for you.

- - - Updated - - -

(addendum)

this math also works for any non-stock parts (mods) that utilize the new core thermal system - so things like nuke reactors, etc.

So there's no heat transfer, say I have ten drills but all my radiators are mounted on a single strucural fuselage attached with a klaw. Would all 1000kw going through the claw an fuselage part affect it in some way?

[KerikBalm]

OP: I agree with you, the heating mechanic to these drills is my biggest complaint about the 1.05 changes (that may change after going to Eve, I haven't tried yet, but I'm hearing that re-entry and also ascent heating is horrendous).

(More detailed thoughts here that no one responded to

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/139432-Patches-Expansions-Gameplay-and-1-05 )

The thing is that it really is as simple as two small deployables per drill...

if you look at radiators in the VAB, they will show both their radiative and core cooling (measured in kW.). For example, I believe the small deployable one can cool 50kw of core heat. A drill at peak efficiency (according to it's VAB notes) generates 100kw. so you need two deployable smalls to have your drill hit equilibrium.

I'm sort of missing the gameplay value of this... so now everytime we want to use a drill, we need to stick another two parts of inconsequential mass on our vessel (0.1 tons total per 1.5 ton part).

There's pretty much no more thought to it than that. Just using more drills is never a viable option.

I'm OK with this system for the small ISRU, as I thought the small ISRU was a bit OP'd and needed some drawbacks. Also, nobody would have a save that they've worked on for a long time that was using the small ISRU, because its a new part.

These big ones though... I'd rather if the drill mass was just increased by 0.1 tons, and the heating system was abstracted to them having a built in coolant system/radiator.

Now I've got mining rigs on other planets that have been made nearly useless.

Particularly the one on Duna (good thing I hadn't yet launched my laythe one), where aerodynamics affect the addition of another module with radiators to a free docking port (not to mention, that will take a long time to do because of the distance... for Mun and Minmus ISRU its not too long).

It seems like this is just an excuse to give the radiators a use... but I don't think we needed that excuse, particularly with more compression heating... I use them to cool my craft down more rapidly in space, so I can reenter sooner (with compression heating the way it is, my craft are red hot after getting into orbit, and I certainly wont want to attempt reentry with them starting red hot). I've also made "sundiver" craft that will overheat without the radiators deployed.

I don't see what this adds to gameplay... it increases part count, and soft-breaks old saves.

So... my solution has been .cfg file editing of the parts until I get around to .cfg file editing radiators onto my craft.

This seems to work well enough (but still reduced efficiency)

MODULE

{

name = ModuleResourceHarvester

HarvesterType = 0

Efficiency = 1.5

ResourceName = Ore

ConverterName = Surface Harvester

StartActionName = Start Surface Harvester

StopActionName = Stop Surface Harvester

ImpactTransform = ImpactTransform

ImpactRange = 5

AutoShutdown = true

UseSpecialistBonus = true

SpecialistEfficiencyFactor = 0.2

SpecialistBonusBase = 0.05

Specialty = Engineer

EfficiencyBonus = 1

GeneratesHeat = true

INPUT_RESOURCE

{

ResourceName = ElectricCharge

Ratio = 15

}

TemperatureModifier

{

key = 0 2000

key = 250 1500

key = 500 1000

key = 750 100

key = 1000 0

}

UseSpecialistBonus = true

SpecialistEfficiencyFactor = 0.2

SpecialistBonusBase = 0.05

Specialty = Engineer

EfficiencyBonus = 1

ThermalEfficiency

{

key = 0 0.1

key = 250 .75

key = 500 1

key = 750 .75

key = 1000 0

}

}

MODULE

{

name = ModuleAsteroidDrill

DirectAttach = false

StartActionName = Start Asteroid Harvester

StopActionName = Stop Asteroid Harvester

PowerConsumption = 1.5

Efficiency = 5

ImpactRange = 5

ImpactTransform = ImpactTransform

UseSpecialistBonus = true

AutoShutdown = true

GeneratesHeat = true

TemperatureModifier

{

key = 0 2000

key = 250 1500

key = 500 1000

key = 750 100

key = 1000 0

}

UseSpecialistBonus = true

SpecialistEfficiencyFactor = 0.2

SpecialistBonusBase = 0.05

Specialty = Engineer

EfficiencyBonus = 1

ThermalEfficiency

{

key = 0 0.1

key = 250 .75

key = 500 1

key = 750 .75

key = 1000 0

}

}

To get rid of the heating effects completely, you can change it to this:

ThermalEfficiency

{

key = 0 1

key = 1000 1

}

and:

TemperatureModifier

{

key = 0 0

key = 1000 0

}

It generates no heat, and is always at its optimum temperature.

[RoverDude]

The gameplay value is that you have a choice, sacrifice mass for better thermal efficiency (and within that, choose vessel wide or localized thermal management).

So for a long running op, say a probe based isru on duna ala 'the martian', mass might be more critical and I would be ok with extremely low efficiency.

But for a manned mission or biome hopper, I might want faster drilling, and might even spring to have an engineer on board. Choice is good.

And of course the best bit is that it's a framework, so it can be built off of, and I expect modders to do some creative things

Re earlier question on ten drills, etc. The them all control systems use inferred heat pipes to transfer energy, but these have limits as noted in the VAB tooltips.

[KerikBalm]

"sacrifice mass for better thermal efficiency"

- But as noted, this sacrifice amounts to a mere .1 tons. Any ship with more than 1 drill would have a higher mining output wth less drills and more radiators.

So for a long running op, say a probe based isru on duna ala 'the martian', mass might be more critical and I would be ok with extremely low efficiency.

This makes sense to choose between the 2.5m vs 1.25m ISRU... but I think the nerfs to the 2.5m/large ISRU set are unwarranted, its not much of a choice... if one goes with the 2.5m part and heavy drills, they want the increased output.

In the minimal case of 1 2.5m ISRU and 1 large drill, 1 medium ore tank(though the new small radial ones could be used), the dry mass is 4.25+1.25+0.5 = 6 tons... and now we are to take nearly a 90% penalty because we didn't make that 6.1 tons? 1.6% more massive for several fold higher output. That is not a real gameplay tradeoff in my opinion.

But for a manned mission or biome hopper, I might want faster drilling, and might even spring to have an engineer on board. Choice is good.

Yes choice is good, and I was already often springing to have an engineer onboard.

But its really not much of a choice at all between 6 tons and only 10% output at 750K, or 6.1 tons and 100% output.

You've got to be kidding yourself if you think that is a viable gameplay choice.

I'm not even complaining that the mass of radial drills went up by half a ton in the latest update, I'm complaining because the entire craft is getting heavily penalized because it doesn't have a fraction of a ton devoted to radiators.

Edited November 15, 2015 by KerikBalm

[Terwin]

[quote name='KerikBalm']
I'm not even complaining that the mass of radial drills went up by half a ton in the latest update, I'm complaining because the entire craft is getting heavily penalized because it doesn't have a fraction of a ton devoted to radiators.[/QUOTE]

The fact that ISRU would need radiators in 1.0.5 was mentioned repeatedly, so you had time to prepare.
Generally I use Nukes on ships where I am using ISRU, so I already have the radiators on-board to allow longer thrusts, I just keep them extended/powered while refining and I'm good.

Note: there is also the (rather small) power requirement for the radiators, so there may be a reason to disable the radiators when you do not have enough power to run all your drills(swapping between drills as they heat up/cool down until your primary power source is available again/when too far from the sun)

As someone who had plenty of ships with radiators in 1.0.4(most of which also had ISRU) I prefer RoverDude's approach of letting me choose how to do my head management.
(there is also the issue of what happens if your radiators/solar panels get damaged during the mission and managing heat and power thereafter)

[KerikBalm]

Time to prepare if I already launched the ISRU before there was any announcement?
I don't have a time machine... its the same save I've been working on since 1.0.
Time to prepare if they made statements that the large ISRUs would not need radiators as much as the small ones, and would come to thermal equilibirum without overheating and shutting down, only to find that the equlibrium for the large drills is at roughly 1/10th output?

Yea... no... I'm keeping the .cfg file edited to remove the mechanic that adds nothing to gameplay and drives up part count.