Elon Musk confirms Falcon 9 first stage single-stage-to-orbit (SSTO) capable.

[Steel]

[quote name='SomeGuy12']So...nothing in your equation mentions anything about the size of the rocket. Could someone build a small rocket (10 feet high or something?) that could reach orbit?[/QUOTE]

If you could make an engine that small with 400 s ISP and still get a mass fraction of 0.9, then yes in theory.

[Camacha]

[quote name='Nibb31']He sure is acting on twitter like he is butthurt, which is definitely immature.[/QUOTE]

He might just be sick and tired of another media frenzy about something explained not quite how it should be.

[Robotengineer]

I just find it funny that two overwhelmingly successful billionaires are squabbling over which of their rockets is better. Has Bezos said anything yet? Plus, SpaceX did the first commercial resupply to a space station ever, so it's not like they have a lack of achievements.

[Kryten]

[quote name='SomeGuy12']So...nothing in your equation mentions anything about the size of the rocket. Could someone build a small rocket (10 feet high or something?) that could reach orbit?[/QUOTE]
Drag losses get proportionally higher the smaller your rocket is.

[LordFerret]

Well Musk needs to pull something off 100%, he's running out of money according to business news... his big solar thingie (Solar City) went bust the other day, among other things. Word I've gotten is that he's now putting everything into his new battery. Might be the only thing that saves him.

[m4ti140]

[quote name='SomeGuy12']So...nothing in your equation mentions anything about the size of the rocket. Could someone build a small rocket (10 feet high or something?) that could reach orbit?[/QUOTE]

If Earth had no atmosphere, yes.

But it does.

[Motokid600]

[quote name='LordFerret']Well Musk needs to pull something off 100%, he's running out of money according to business news... his big solar thingie (Solar City) went bust the other day, among other things. Word I've gotten is that he's now putting everything into his new battery. Might be the only thing that saves him.[/QUOTE]

I did alot of work for Solar City. Not anymore. It dropped like a rock here in the Northeast US. Too much red tape for it to get off the ground. Elon is rich, but hes not oil/gas rich sadly... and oil/gas always wins. Same thing with the electric car. They were getting popular until gas priced mysteriously plummeted. So.. you gotta hand it to him for atleast trying. If Elon can nail the battery and that factory hes building for mass production. He would still have trouble pulling the rug out from under big oil.

[mikegarrison]

It's not so mysterious why the price of oil dropped. They found an ocean of it under North Dakota.

[Rakaydos]

[quote name='mikegarrison']It's not so mysterious why the price of oil dropped. They found an ocean of it under North Dakota.[/QUOTE]

"Found", yea, I think that was his point.

[Kryten]

You can hardly blame oil for all of his various business' woes; oil prices ought to affect all manufacturers of electric vehicles in similar ways, for example, but Teslas are still rare as hen's teeth outside California. Sales of vehicles like the Nissan Leaf are still booming over here, and they're a pretty common sight, but I've never seen a Tesla of any model.

[mikegarrison]

[quote name='Kryten']You can hardly blame oil for all of his various business' woes; oil prices ought to affect all manufacturers of electric vehicles in similar ways, for example, but Teslas are still rare as hen's teeth outside California. Sales of vehicles like the Nissan Leaf are still booming over here, and they're a pretty common sight, but I've never seen a Tesla of any model.[/QUOTE]
I see a lot more Teslas than Leafs in the Seattle area.

[fredinno]

[quote name='Rakaydos']"Found", yea, I think that was his point.[/QUOTE]
No, they figured out new ways to extract oil that allowed that oils to be extracted ecomomically.

[Rakaydos]

[quote name='fredinno']No, they figured out new ways to extract oil that allowed that oils to be extracted ecomomically.[/QUOTE]

Globaly it actually was a perfect storm, with all the oil-producing countiries that had diversified economies (like USA and Saudi Arabia) got annoyed (for completely non-oil related reasons) at oil producing countries who relyied on oil exports (like russia), and intentionally tanked the price of oil to hurt their rivals.

[gogozerg]

[quote name='Steel']Not if it didn't have the upper stage and payload[/QUOTE]
Nope, for Ariane 5 I read:
- Vulcain 2 engine : 1340 kN
- EPC alone : 180 t
TWR < 1

[Hcube]

Wait, why did he even announce that ? Is there any point in having a first stage than can SSTO ? Seems like advertisment targeted towards people that know nothing about rockets and that has no real meaning

[SargeRho]

They're doing the equivalent of "Oh yeah? My daddy could beat up your daddy!", it seems.

[More Boosters]

Which is weird because people who buy rocket trips usually aren't people who know nothing about rockets.

[Motokid600]

[quote name='Hcube']Wait, why did he even announce that ? Is there any point in having a first stage than can SSTO ? Seems like advertisment targeted towards people that know nothing about rockets and that has no real meaning[/QUOTE]

I'm sure the average Joe is also contributing to Elon's salt level. He probably fears the F9 landing achievement will be spoiled because most people won't be able to understand the difference between the New Sheppard and F9. And he'd be correct.

[Hcube]

[quote name='Motokid600']I'm sure the average Joe is also contributing to Elon's salt level. He probably fears the F9 landing achievement will be spoiled because most people won't be able to understand the difference between the New Sheppard and F9. And he'd be correct.[/QUOTE]

But how does that relate to the first stage being an SSTO ? Landing is a thing and SSTO is another... Aren't they comparing apples and oranges ?

[fredinno]

[quote name='Hcube']But how does that relate to the first stage being an SSTO ? Landing is a thing and SSTO is another... Aren't they comparing apples and oranges ?[/QUOTE]

He's being a salty fanboy to himself, saying that Falcon 9 1st stage is better because it can do more.:sticktongue:

[Motokid600]

[quote name='Hcube']But how does that relate to the first stage being an SSTO ? Landing is a thing and SSTO is another... Aren't they comparing apples and oranges ?[/QUOTE]

It doesn't relate. I thought I was in the other thread lol. But for what it counts this SSTO announcement is supposedly damage control from Elon over BO.

[mikegarrison]

[quote name='Motokid600']It doesn't relate. I thought I was in the other thread lol. But for what it counts this SSTO announcement is supposedly damage control from Elon over BO.[/QUOTE]
It was like the very opposite of damage control, really. Somebody in their PR department should have cut off Musk's Twitter account. He made himself look really petty.

[Nibb31]

[quote name='mikegarrison']It was like the very opposite of damage control, really. Somebody in their PR department should have cut off Musk's Twitter account. He made himself look really petty.[/QUOTE]

From what I've seen of his management style, one doesn't simply cut off Elon's twitter account.

[cantab]

Back on topic. As mentioned a fair few rockets can do this in theory. But will any do it in practice? It seems like Elon's making an off-the-cuff comment, I doubt there's any real plans, but I do think SpaceX has a better position than some because they've made their success by focussing on comparative mass production. If SpaceX want to move into the small-payload market beyond what they can do by offering "piggyback" rides on a larger launches, then a F9 SSTO might be considerably cheaper for them to develop and operate than a smaller multistage design.

[Rakaydos]

4 minutes ago, cantab said:

Back on topic. As mentioned a fair few rockets can do this in theory. But will any do it in practice? It seems like Elon's making an off-the-cuff comment, I doubt there's any real plans, but I do think SpaceX has a better position than some because they've made their success by focussing on comparative mass production. If SpaceX want to move into the small-payload market beyond what they can do by offering "piggyback" rides on a larger launches, then a F9 SSTO might be considerably cheaper for them to develop and operate than a smaller multistage design.

Problem is, single stage to orbit is still unrecoverable, for the same reason the New Shepard launch isnt comparable to Falcon 9. IT might be useful for getting an empty tank with a lot of Merlins into orbit, but unless you're doing orbital constructon involving retrofitting merlins to vaccum merlins I dont really see the point.