I'm confused about how to use the fuel cells

[davee]

Hi everyone,

I just signed up to the forums (newb) and I have to submit a dumb question because I looked and looked and can't find the answer, although there must be one in here somewhere.

I have been playing with solar panels on my orbital craft and they work fine, but I (for the life of me) don't understand why the fuel cell doesn't appear to consume fuel from the tank it's attached to. When I searched for this answer (all day long, almost), I didn't find anyone asking this question and so I wonder what I'm doing wrong or how it works, but it looks like I'm the only person on earth that doesn't know why.

The fuel cell experiments I've been doing simply attach a cell onto the side of a tank and have something else attached that uses electricity. In the latest test, I used a remote control unit to draw electricity.

I placed the test unit (tank, remote, cell) onto the launch pad and watched it drain off all the power, but never did I see any fuel consumed from the tank. After leaving it to drain off, I never saw any electricity being made after the fuel cell completely drained, nor fuel used.

BTW, I'm using modded KSP with lots of stuff, such as RO, RF, procedural tanks and a lot more, but in trying all kinds of tanks, fuel, and other electricity consuming parts, I never saw the cell to add power back and no fuel was consumed after waiting for over a year. I even tried desperate things like adding a fuel duct from the tank to the fuel cell. I tried the fuel cell array too. Flood lights from B9 I think too.

Why why why?? I must be totally confused and all my tests to make power failed. Please anyone, it's probably something I just don't understand but this is how I felt it was supposed to work after trying to consume all the limited tutorial info I could find:

1. Attach a fuel cell to a fuel tank.

2. Set the fuel to Liquid hydrogen and oxygen. I just used a 50/50 ratio but I don't think that would matter...?

3. I though the fuel cell would continuously generate power and very slowly consume the fuel.

But no such behavior.

Instead, the fuel cell drains off as if it were a tiny battery then nothing is generated after that. The way I tried this, a batter would work better.

Maybe I assumed it would drink fuel and I tried all kinds of fuels and oxidizer.

Help me get it to work, please. I could use RTG but I want to know why I can't get what I thought was something basic to work at all or maybe it is working and I can't see any results for some reason.

Thanks

P.S. tried to attach screenshot of the unit I used for the last test but can't attach it.

Edited December 15, 2015 by davee

[Speeding Mullet]

This might sound like a really silly suggestion, but have you right clicked on the fuel cell and turned it on?

SM

Edit:  Welcome to the forums! 

Edited December 15, 2015 by Speeding Mullet

[davee]

Hi Speeding Mullet,

That's a great question and I considered that early on. For some reason, there are no switches on the gui during a mission except the bar at the bottom of the gui to turn off the power consumption. But no switch to activate the cell, nor was there any way to use command groups to control it either. It seemed like there should be. Maybe I have a problem or a conflict with a mod or something.

Also, I just wanted to add that I am using sandbox mode.

Edited December 15, 2015 by davee
added something at bottom.

[Snark]

Welcome to the forums!

As Mullet points out, you have to turn on the fuel cell. I suspect that this is your issue.

A few other things to be aware of:

You don't have to attach the fuel cell directly to the tank. When they're running, fuel cells draw fuel from any available tank on the ship.

Be careful about your terminology. In KSP, it's "liquid fuel" and "oxidizer", not "hydrogen" and "oxygen". I mention this because there are mods that add hydrogen and oxygen as new, different resources in their own right, and you don't want to get them mixed up.

Fuel cells defer to other power sources, so for example, if you have a ship with fully charged batteries, and it has both fuel cells and solar panels, then the fuel cells won't draw fuel as long as the panels are keeping things charged.

[davee]

I think there's a problem with my setup then. The gui is just a bar and a little [>] on the right side of the bar (which shows 00/50). No control switch at all. Thanks for pointing out the terminology. I did try putting the cell onto a girder, just like I put lights that worked for a while. I hate to rip my software all apart and mess with the mods (btw using ckan and ksp 1.05). I suspect I have an installation problem then. Has something like this ever been reported and BTW I want to attach a screenshot but the forum sw didn't let me. I used Insert existing attachment and it waid I couldn't from my account. Maybe it's because I'm newb.

Sorry if this is too much data, but I inserted my ckan setup because I can't add screenshot. Maybe something in my mod config is causing this.

--------------

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--------------

Edited December 15, 2015 by davee
added lots of ckan lines.

[davee]

BTW Thanks for the greetings. I'm signing off for a while to sleep. Real late in California

[Rocket In My Pocket]

So when you right click the fuel cell, there isn't any button to turn it on as pictured? (Circled in red)

I just tested it on the rig pictured and it worked fine, drained fuel and produced electricity when on. Must be a problem with one of your mods?

[Snark]

Thanks to @Rocket In My Pocket for the screenshot, that should clarify matters-- do you not get that UI?

By the way:  do you know about the debug UI?  If you have lots of mods and some of them are misbehaving badly enough to cause weird game effects, there may be something showing up in the log.

To bring up the debug UI, press Alt-F12.  It has a bunch of tabs; by default the "Cheats" tab is showing when the UI comes up.  Along the top are a bunch of buttons for the various tabs, and one of those says "Debug".  If you click that, you'll get a listing of the debug log (scroll to the bottom to see most current).  Are there any interesting errors or warnings showing up?  That might help point you in the right direction.

[Snark]

3 hours ago, davee said:

I want to attach a screenshot but the forum sw didn't let me. I used Insert existing attachment and it waid I couldn't from my account. Maybe it's because I'm newb.

Sorry if this is too much data, but I inserted my ckan setup because I can't add screenshot. Maybe something in my mod config is causing this.

Spoiler

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            "version": "2.1"
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}

 

 

No worries, the forums can be tricky to figure out at first. 

To post a screenshot:  Don't try to do it using "existing attachment".  Upload the image to imgur.com, then copy the image URL from there.  Then come into the forum, choose "Insert other media" -> "Insert image from URL", and paste the URL.  Works like a charm.

If you're ever making a forum post and want to include a big wedge of data that will take up lots of space, which you want people to be able to look at but don't want to clutter things up, use a "spoiler".  (This is the little "eye" icon on the toolbar when you're writing/editing your post.)  That will paste in a special section where you can put lots of stuff in, but when it shows up on the page, it's collapsed down to a small bar that people can expand with a click.  I've done this in the quote above to show you what it looks like.

(You can edit your posts after you make them, so for example if you want to go back and edit the post where you put in that long pasted section, to move it into a spoiler, you totally can.) 

 

Edited December 15, 2015 by Snark

[Bluegillbronco2]

In RO the fuel cells still use the stock liquid fuel and oxidizer. You said you are using real fuels and liquid hydrogen and oxygen. So you need a separate tank for the stock liquid fuel and oxidizer to run the fuel cell. As far as I know RO does not include any sort of different fuel cell.

[Alshain]

29 minutes ago, Bluegillbronco2 said:

In RO the fuel cells still use the stock liquid fuel and oxidizer. You said you are using real fuels and liquid hydrogen and oxygen. So you need a separate tank for the stock liquid fuel and oxidizer to run the fuel cell. As far as I know RO does not include any sort of different fuel cell.

That should be an easy fix.  Now, I don't use RO so someone will have to check my work here and I'm not sure if the conversion ratio should change from stock, but this MM patch should work theoretically.  I included a little "BEFORE" tag in case you are using my toggle mod.

@PART[FuelCell]:BEFORE[ToggleFuelCell]
{
	@MODULE[ModuleResourceConverter] 
	{
		@INPUT_RESOURCE[LiquidFuel]
		{
			@ResourceName = LiquidHydrogen
		}
		
		@INPUT_RESOURCE[Oxidizer]
		{
			@ResourceName = Oxygen
		}
	}
}

@PART[FuelCellArray]:BEFORE[ToggleFuelCell]
{
	@MODULE[ModuleResourceConverter] 
	{
		@INPUT_RESOURCE[LiquidFuel]
		{
			@ResourceName = LiquidHydrogen
		}
		
		@INPUT_RESOURCE[Oxidizer]
		{
			@ResourceName = Oxygen
		}
	}
}

 

Edited December 15, 2015 by Alshain

[Pecan]

If the 'start fuel cell' button is missing; are you in timewarp (accelerated time)?  This deactivates many conrols.

[davee]

6 hours ago, Snark said:

Thanks to @Rocket In My Pocket for the screenshot, that should clarify matters-- do you not get that UI?

By the way:  do you know about the debug UI?  If you have lots of mods and some of them are misbehaving badly enough to cause weird game effects, there may be something showing up in the log.

To bring up the debug UI, press Alt-F12.  It has a bunch of tabs; by default the "Cheats" tab is showing when the UI comes up.  Along the top are a bunch of buttons for the various tabs, and one of those says "Debug".  If you click that, you'll get a listing of the debug log (scroll to the bottom to see most current).  Are there any interesting errors or warnings showing up?  That might help point you in the right direction.

Thanks for the screenshot (Rocker in My Pocket). The button you circled is the one missing on mine. I have some more replies to read and just glanced from my phone earlier. I know now that we're on to something. The button. No wonder I was "so confused" because it is perma-off.

The debug gui was something I looked at but it was too much to digest and I had no idea what to look for. So I checked it briefly. I haven't read through everything here yet, but I saw some config stuff below and I think all this support I've received so far is enough to give me some tasks to do and I will report back when I get the button to appear. I have seen that activation button before (in the cell gui) but that was, perhaps before I reached the level of mods that I applied over a few weeks. I'm happy to know that I can use that fuel cell now.....uh after I fix it.

It's no wonder I couldn't figure it out by looking for tutotials. There were none addressing the issue I'm having.

I appreciate all the great support so far!

Edited December 15, 2015 by davee

[davee]

4 hours ago, Alshain said:

That should be an easy fix.  Now, I don't use RO so someone will have to check my work here and I'm not sure if the conversion ratio should change from stock, but this MM patch should work theoretically.  I included a little "BEFORE" tag in case you are using my toggle mod.

Thank you. I posted the mods list because after people talked about the (missing) button, I knew that my setup had problems. And, it happens that I was just troubleshooting a different issue which inadvertently removed some mods a day ago.

Here's what happened earlier that caused my need to go into ckan and the configs for real fuels: I was having a slow framerate because of the plume of the first stage. So I decided to take it upon myself to remove real plumes to see if that would speed it up. Then ckan removed realism overhaul and a lot of other things too. So I had to fix that problem. Then a side affect of that caused a warning that B9 Procedural Parts (?) was the wrong version for 1.0.5. So I manually deleted the folders that contained B9 because ckan wasn't able to remove B9. I erased those folders and reinstalled everything I thought about and that's how I got to where the fuel cell was broken state. I also went into Real Settings cfg and turned off ullage and limited starts just to make life easier for me until I get more advanced. Also removed saturation for the torque wheels. I'll turn all these back on later.

So I appreciate the help, everyone. I usually beat a problem to death before I post a cry for help. I sure was frustrated by the time I signed up to the forum and posted my problem. It's a been an amazing amount of help from everyone!!!

I'll be back to post a followup because now I know I can fix it with all this new info.

4 hours ago, Bluegillbronco2 said:

In RO the fuel cells still use the stock liquid fuel and oxidizer. You said you are using real fuels and liquid hydrogen and oxygen. So you need a separate tank for the stock liquid fuel and oxidizer to run the fuel cell. As far as I know RO does not include any sort of different fuel cell.

Ahhh. That's good to know. Thanks!!

[davee]

1 hour ago, Pecan said:

If the 'start fuel cell' button is missing; are you in timewarp (accelerated time)?  This deactivates many conrols.

I'll remember this. I was messing with the time warp so much that I determined this wasn't the issue this time. :-)

[davee]

So far, I've been able to narrow down the button issue to something in this list of mods:

 * Real Fuels rf-v10.8.1
 * Real Plume 2:v10.4.9
 * Realism Overhaul v10.6.0
 

With these mods removed, the fuel cell button is present as well as the action group commands for it (start and stop). I hope I can find a way to keep these mods installed and change the config to make it work again. I'm going to do more experimenting.

[Snark]

41 minutes ago, davee said:

So far, I've been able to narrow down the button issue to something in this list of mods:

 * Real Fuels rf-v10.8.1
 * Real Plume 2:v10.4.9
 * Realism Overhaul v10.6.0
 

With these mods removed, the fuel cell button is present as well as the action group commands for it (start and stop). I hope I can find a way to keep these mods installed and change the config to make it work again. I'm going to do more experimenting.

If you can narrow it down to one specific mod, then you can go to that mod's forum thread and post there.  "Hi, I'm seeing the following issue."  If it's a bug in the mod, there's a good chance the mod author will get the message and (hopefully) fix the problem.

[davee]

Going to try. I think I'm going to have to bypass ckan's automation and hope that a mod's dependencies can be stubbed or ignored to allow me to test all the pieces involved. The RO dependency tree is pretty big. We'll see. I'm going to search for the button prob too on google.

[davee]

News!!!! I never found any info on a fuel cell bug. But I have a groundbreaking update on the saga: Everything appears to work. How did I fix it?

- I reinstalled the KSP_win folder from the vanilla 1.0.5 download zip file.

- Added CKAN to the Ksp_win folder.

- Installed several things including RO, RF, RSS, and lots of other dependencies and optional mods that were recommended by CKAN.

- Tested the fuel cell array with procedural tanks containing lox and lhyd. In fact, now I am seeing differences from what the guis had when I was having the problem. The fuel cell gui (on the launch pad) shows an error if I don't add the correct fuel to the tank (paraphrased): "no liquid hydrogen fuel". It doesn't seem to work with Liquid Fuel and Oxidizer, actually liquid hydrogen (from the top of the tank's fuels gui) and the liquid oxygen. Interesting, huh?

- Now that the cells work, I also see another difference in the fuel cell gui that might be related to the problem itself: The button on the gui is a toggle button. When I was problems and removed real fuels, the button was actually TWO buttons. Start Fuel Cell and Stop Fuel Cell. This might've been from a mod that I haven't yet reinstalled yet. Maybe I'll stumble across it soon as I continue to add mods to restore the heavily modded setup I had before.

I included the CKAN config file this time if anyone wants to analyze it. But right now, I want to go and play with the working setup. I'm SO happy. I'm going to lose sleep tonight!!! If anyone has questions or wants me to look something up from my working setup, I'm watching the thread.

Best wishes!!

Dave

Spoiler

{
    "kind": "metapackage",
    "abstract": "A list of modules installed on the default KSP instance",
    "name": "installed-default",
    "license": "unknown",
    "version": "2015.12.16.07.20.13",
    "identifier": "installed-default",
    "spec_version": "v1.6",
    "depends": [
        {
            "name": "MechJeb2",
            "version": "2.5.5"
        },
        {
            "name": "MechJebForAll",
            "version": "1.2.0.0"
        },
        {
            "name": "ModuleManager",
            "version": "2.6.13"
        },
        {
            "name": "FASA",
            "version": "5.421"
        },
        {
            "name": "RasterPropMonitor",
            "version": "v0.24.1"
        },
        {
            "name": "ReflectionPlugin",
            "version": "1.2"
        },
        {
            "name": "RasterPropMonitor-Core",
            "version": "v0.24.1"
        },
        {
            "name": "RealFuels",
            "version": "rf-v10.8.1"
        },
        {
            "name": "RealismOverhaul",
            "version": "v10.6.0"
        },
        {
            "name": "CrossFeedEnabler",
            "version": "v3.3"
        },
        {
            "name": "B9-PWings-Fork",
            "version": "2.1"
        },
        {
            "name": "ConnectedLivingSpace",
            "version": "1.2.0.1"
        },
        {
            "name": "DeadlyReentry",
            "version": "v7.3.1"
        },
        {
            "name": "FilterExtensions",
            "version": "2.4.1.3"
        },
        {
            "name": "HangarExtender",
            "version": "1:v3.4.6"
        },
        {
            "name": "KSP-AVC",
            "version": "1.1.5.0"
        },
        {
            "name": "ProceduralFairings",
            "version": "v3.15"
        },
        {
            "name": "ProceduralFairings-ForEverything",
            "version": "v0.1.1"
        },
        {
            "name": "ProceduralParts",
            "version": "v1.1.9"
        },
        {
            "name": "RCSBuildAid",
            "version": "0.7.5"
        },
        {
            "name": "RemoteTech",
            "version": "v1.6.9"
        },
        {
            "name": "SemiSaturatableRW",
            "version": "1.10.2.1"
        },
        {
            "name": "TACLS-Config-RealismOverhaul",
            "version": "v10.6.0"
        },
        {
            "name": "TextureReplacer",
            "version": "2.4.11"
        },
        {
            "name": "CommunityResourcePack",
            "version": "0.4.8.0"
        },
        {
            "name": "SolverEngines",
            "version": "v1.14"
        },
        {
            "name": "AdvancedJetEngine",
            "version": "v2.5.4"
        },
        {
            "name": "FerramAerospaceResearch",
            "version": "3:0.15.5.4"
        },
        {
            "name": "ModularFlightIntegrator",
            "version": "1.1.2"
        },
        {
            "name": "KerbalJointReinforcement",
            "version": "v3.1.4"
        },
        {
            "name": "RealChute",
            "version": "1.3.2.6"
        },
        {
            "name": "RealHeat",
            "version": "v2"
        },
        {
            "name": "RealPlume",
            "version": "2:v10.4.9"
        },
        {
            "name": "SmokeScreen",
            "version": "2.6.9"
        },
        {
            "name": "FirespitterCore",
            "version": "v7.1.5"
        },
        {
            "name": "TACLS",
            "version": "v0.11.2"
        },
        {
            "name": "RealSolarSystem",
            "version": "v10.4.1"
        },
        {
            "name": "RSSTextures8192",
            "version": "v10.2"
        },
        {
            "name": "KSCSwitcher",
            "version": "0.5"
        },
        {
            "name": "Kopernicus",
            "version": "1:beta-06-2"
        }
    ]
}
 

 

I haven't changed the Real Config cfg file yet to turn off ullage and limited starts. I doubt if that's going to break it now. If it does, then I'll post the update here just to document it for all.

[davee]

After reinstalling the entire program with all the mods that I think I had before, it works now.I think that one of the mods that I didn't reinstall was causing the problem, but I don't know which one it was.my theory is that since I changed the version of CKAN and KSP, I must've introduced some corruption in the program. Now there's one button to toggle the fuel cell on and off. When I was having a problem and looking at it there were two buttons back then so one of the mods change the nature of how the buttons were defined.

After all the changes I've made, the vab hanger gui buttons look different.

It pays to clean up the mods after a lot of version changes. Changing it a lot can corrupt it, it seems. 

Again, thanks for all the help! 

[Rocket In My Pocket]

Glad to hear you've got it all sorted out, happy flying!

[Arugela]

I have a feeling they dealt with alot of things by having the buttons not be clickable instead of coding the buttons not to work and when clicked and deal with the exceptions. Maybe it's just default behavior for the game as it doesn't have Ox+LF present?!(Or it's coded to only pop up when one or some of the default fuels are detected) It wouldn't be shocked if it does the same think on a mono only vehicle or even maybe just pure LF. Although Pure LF may trigger the button as it detects one of the Fuels and possibly has a handled exception for no ox but one fuel source needed. Or I wouldn't be surprised. I've noticed they make buttons just not show up in a lot of cases. Although I don't know specifically. I haven't tested anything. This just came to mind.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Arugela