My Disappointment in Career mode and 1.0 in a Whole

[Waxing_Kibbous]

I wouldn't mind seeing the contracts be a bit more gradual myself, at least the space station/base ones which IMO do have some occasionally ridiculous requirements right off the bat. The new contract system is designed to expand on previous things, right?

 

 *As a side note, anyone who has played Windwaker probably remembers the camera that you used to take pics to unlock things in game- I'd love to see KSP's screenshot capability in contracts, to take pics of celestial bodies, anomalies, etc. I think that's a pretty cool part of the game, who doesn't take pics of their space missions?

[archnem]

8 minutes ago, Temstar said:

Those type of contracts have extremely long duration though, something like 20 years to complete. I find that quite realistic - when Kennedy did his "we choose to go to the moon" speech he basically forced a contract just like this on NASA with a duration of 8 years, at a time when NASA could barely launch a single person into earth orbit on a spacecraft best described as "worn" rather than "piloted".

Plus if you don't like a contract just don't agree to it and let it expire, plenty more where they came from.

"As it is in career mode, I feel like I'm just hoping for the right contracts to generate to do what I want to do in the first place."

You miss my point - don't agree and let it expire doesn't solve the problem, it IS the problem.

[tater]

Yeah, that's what I mean about bulldozing career, and redoing it.

One (a pet peeve) "Mission Control" is the place where they monitor/run missions in flight, which KSP gets entirely wrong. It should be renamed Mission Planning or something. Two, you are spot-on. He's how I would envision a better career system.

There are a finite number of possible goals in KSP. Functionally they are described by:

1. Manned (1, 2, 3, 4, etc)/Unmanned. (crew counted at launch)

2. Body: Kerbol, Moho, Eve, Kerbin (Mun, Minmus), Duna (Ike), Dres, Jool (moons), etc.

3. Orbit/Surface.

4. Science (then what specific science)/Construction (station/base/resupply)/Tourism/Spaceflight. The last one, Spaceflight, would be missions like rendezvous/docking/Change orbital plane, etc for early career.

5. Mode (direct from Kerbin, orbital rendezvous and construction, multiple stops, etc) (unsure of this one, but it seems worthwhile for it to have a field existing, even if nominally unused)

That's it. Every, single possible player-defined mission can be created using the above. Commercial contracts can still happen semi-randomly (satellites, part testing, etc).

 

A combination of your choices above could result in the game presenting budget/timing options for the player to choose from. These would be influenced by Rep. The budget presented might include some tech points be spent in the tech tree. The less funds you accept, the more Rep you earn (unclear on this bit). The tech tree nodes would require spending Funds, tech points (either given as budget, or some might occur due to parts testing or other specific "engineering" type contracts), and possibly science points depending on the item(s). Science would then continue to play a small role in unlocking tech, but would be more focused. Once a mission profile is selected, the game might create some sub-goals based upon previous achievements, as well.

Start a new career. Decide that the goal of the KSC is to land a kerbal on the Mun, and return him or her safely to Kerbin, and you want it Apollo style.

Manned 3
Mun
Surface
Sample return/crew reports
Mun Orbit Rendezvous

Your first Mun mission would generate something that looks like the current "Explore the Mun, but will include any other specifics you have added (sample return to Kerbin vs just transmitting science from the surface), plus actually returning). Unfortunately, you don't have enough Rep to "buy" the above mission yet, so you need to first make a less costly mission in Rep (the system can gray out choices you cannot buy) so your Rep can build to the point to allow the Mun mission (Rep would not be "spent," you'd just need to have a threshold to "buy" different missions---this would mostly affect the beginning game as the threshold would be set such that you'd need basic orbital milestones). In the above case, a starting career could build:

Manned 1
Kerbin
Surface/Orbit
Various Science (some dependent on building upgrades, so really only fund-limited)
Direct

So you'd make some flights, earn some Rep, then go for the Mun mission first shown. Science collected would drive Rep pretty heavily, so you'd need to get some science to get the Rep to buy missions farther afield, though Rep might also be available via commercial missions if you prefer that route. Note that there might also be commercial contracts to other bodies that obviate the need for Rep. If Acme Corp wants to pay you to go to the Mun, then you don't need to beg Kongress for a budget, do you?

[Der Anfang]

1 hour ago, archnem said:

My biggest gripe about career mode - let ME decide what the goals of my space program should be!

I just came back to KSP after a few weeks of Fallout, so hey, I start a new career.  Early on, same old thing, grind to orbit, plan my first Mun mission.  I just landed a 6 kerbal lander and returned it and now I have this contract:

Build a new outpost on the Mun, must support 16 kerbals, be on wheels, have a science lab, 6000 units of liquid fuel, 7500 units of electric charge, 3 pilots, and a partridge in a pear tree! Don't you think this might be a bit beyond my fledgling space program, considering I JUST LANDED ON THE MUN 5 MINUTES AGO?

I want to go to Minmus, then Duna, so now I have to wait for the "Explore Duna" or "Build outpost" or similar contracts to randomly generate.  Now I can't even decline the millions of "Rescue this dumbass" or "Test this stupid part under these stupid conditions" contracts without taking a rep penalty. Agh.

In my vision, I would go to Mission Control and choose MY OWN goals/milestones, and then contracts would be generated based on those.  For example, I want to go to Duna, so I choose as my goal "Land a crew on Duna", perhaps with some other modifiers like # of crew, science experiments I'd like to do while I'm there, etc.  Then contracts would generate based on that goal - Rockomax wants the publicity, so they ask me to use their engines/parts on the upcoming Duna mission, in exchange for funds.  Tourists would ask to tag along.  The science division would like me to set up a satellite or do an experiment while I'm there. And so on.

As it is in career mode, I feel like I'm just hoping for the right contracts to generate to do what I want to do in the first place.  And I'd better hope I'm not out on a mission doing stuff when they DO generate or I might miss them never to be seen again. (*cough* Explore Body contract *cough*).  Let ME decide what I want to do!  Maybe I don't want to go interplanetary at all!  Maybe I DO want to build a huge munar base!  Let me decide and THEN give me the ridiculous requirements, not vice-versa.

In short, make contracts work for the player, not the other way around!

/Rant off.

Yes, right now I am having the same issue with the "explore this body" contracts. I'm on my way to Eve and Moho, and even Dres, but they aren't coming at all. Does being at 69% rep have any influence on this?

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Speedbird said:

Hi guys as the title says career mode has left me disappointed. In order to launch missions, I need money, and while that all sounds great at first, it actually is not, and that is the missions themselves fault. They are ridiculously specific, making them take a lot of time and energy to accomplish, but they are also ridiculously boring!

Ever heard of science mode?

[Xavven]

48 minutes ago, CliftonM said:

Ever heard of science mode?

Science mode is really good, IMO. The player's goal is to get science points, in order to unlock parts, which lets them get more science points. How the player will go about doing that is up to them. It's the right mix of self-directed play while still pushing the player out to more and more difficult "levels" by having a game-like goal in mind. Sandbox is good too but lacks the "here is your goalpost, now go hit it" direction of the other game modes.

 

Career just seems off. The contracts end up being too restrictive in some bizarre way that's hard to describe, like it's just doing "side quests" over and over. I just think there needs to be a paradigm shift here whereby time-based funding is a game mechanic. This would make the game much more like X-Com in terms of grand-strategy feel, and less like a poorly done MMO quest hub where you're just some lousy errand-boy.

[Johnny Wishbone]

11 hours ago, archnem said:

My biggest gripe about career mode - let ME decide what the goals of my space program should be!

I just came back to KSP after a few weeks of Fallout, so hey, I start a new career.  Early on, same old thing, grind to orbit, plan my first Mun mission.  I just landed a 6 kerbal lander and returned it and now I have this contract:

Build a new outpost on the Mun, must support 16 kerbals, be on wheels, have a science lab, 6000 units of liquid fuel, 7500 units of electric charge, 3 pilots, and a partridge in a pear tree! Don't you think this might be a bit beyond my fledgling space program, considering I JUST LANDED ON THE MUN 5 MINUTES AGO?

I want to go to Minmus, then Duna, so now I have to wait for the "Explore Duna" or "Build outpost" or similar contracts to randomly generate.  Now I can't even decline the millions of "Rescue this dumbass" or "Test this stupid part under these stupid conditions" contracts without taking a rep penalty. Agh.

In my vision, I would go to Mission Control and choose MY OWN goals/milestones, and then contracts would be generated based on those.  For example, I want to go to Duna, so I choose as my goal "Land a crew on Duna", perhaps with some other modifiers like # of crew, science experiments I'd like to do while I'm there, etc.  Then contracts would generate based on that goal - Rockomax wants the publicity, so they ask me to use their engines/parts on the upcoming Duna mission, in exchange for funds.  Tourists would ask to tag along.  The science division would like me to set up a satellite or do an experiment while I'm there. And so on.

As it is in career mode, I feel like I'm just hoping for the right contracts to generate to do what I want to do in the first place.  And I'd better hope I'm not out on a mission doing stuff when they DO generate or I might miss them never to be seen again. (*cough* Explore Body contract *cough*).  Let ME decide what I want to do!  Maybe I don't want to go interplanetary at all!  Maybe I DO want to build a huge munar base!  Let me decide and THEN give me the ridiculous requirements, not vice-versa.

In short, make contracts work for the player, not the other way around!

/Rant off.

I agree 100%. I've always felt that the main issue with contracts in KSP is that they are implemented "backwards". If NASA or the ESA want to launch a mission, they decide what they want to do, and then bid out contracts to make it happen. Companies come to them with contracts that meet the needs of the mission and NASA/ESA choose the best contracts that fit the mission. In KSP, Gene Kerman opens the front doors to Mission Control and proclaims "Bring me your contracts, we'll do them all!" And every Kerbal on the planet shows up waving around a ridiculous contract. But it gets better: if you tell them "Your contract to launch a Kickback booster up to 50km, then ignite it while pointed towards the surface is crazy dumb and we're not interested in that" then you hurt their feelings and now you take a reputation hit and are considered hard to work with. Its idiotic. Yes, I know the reputation hit is a setting you can turn off, but it makes no sense and should't be a gameplay mechanic.

I think your idea has merit and suggest you forward it to Squad if you haven't already. Implementing a contract system like you described would go a long way to making career mode much more fun and interesting to play than the current, random ridiculousness.

[MrOsterman]

The problem we're seeing is a mix of player and developer vision for what Career Mode should be.  My best read on what Career mode is ~intended~ to be fits with the idea of "here are some missions you can pick from to keep your game going.  You get some choice and you get a reward for doing it.   Those rewards let you do more missions or work on your own projects.  

There seems to be two mindsets: 

A)  Do one of the offered assigned missions

B- Let me pick my own missions and figure out how how to generate money based on them.

B is a lot harder to make a ~game~ out of because while the player has a LOT of choice (ie picking exactly what to do), the role of consequences for choices as well as challenges within them is a lot harder to program.  It is just plain easier to create A, where the system tries to generate a series of "quests" to pick from.  If it were up to me, I'd almost like to see the game have a "main quest chain" where it gave you a general "Plan" for your program that you were following towards a final end goal and then tack on a series of "side quests" like we have now.  That said, I'm pretty happy with the game as it stands....

I would also posit, if you're having a hard time making ends meet, or you're feeling too hampered by what contracts are there, I've been collecting contracts that I plan to do when I have enough.  An upgrade to your mission control building lets you hold more contracts in reserve so I'll usually wait until I have 2-3 that overlap well before I set out to see if I can do them all in one ship....

 

[Malich]

I really enjoy career mode for most of the reasons stated above. Hacking together three semi-similar contracts to find what I actually want to do is half the challenge. All my Minmus and Mun exploration came from tourism or research missions. Rescue contracts gained me all my kerbals, station missions were combined with satellite launches, rescue missions and goodness knows what else. Each of my stations includes a small shuttle for collecting lost Kerbals which means I can gather them up as they appear and then just do a single return mission, usually backed onto a science or passenger run. A seven Kerbal craft is not much more expensive than a 3 Kerbal craft and can easily swing past a Munar / Minmusian station on it's way.

By the time I was ready for Duna I had funds of about 6m just sitting about which let me launch missions to Dres (2 launches, 8 kerbals and about 2.5m spent), Duna (3 launches 8 kerbals and about 3.2m spent), Eve and Eeloo (1 launch each, no kerbals but a small 3 kerbal station and shuttle craft to support any manned missions I might send later). These all included a return ship and a large, nuclear engined "Transfer Tug" which is basically a 3.5m unit with a 2.5m docking port at one end, nuclear power at the other and fuel sandwiched in between. New launches to these planets now will be lighter as they will shuttle between there and Kerbin to just pick up any 2.5m modules I feel those missions require. 

Making every launch count for multiple missions helps, add in the ability to reuse parts of a mission that would otherwise be discarded and you can get even more out of them. Yes, I accept it might make the missions slightly more expensive to launch initially but the payback comes in time when each follow on launch is cheaper.

Also make sure you have the strategy that gives you cash for reputation is running in the Admin block. This will help a lot early on when rep is dropping into your lap just for being awesome and Kerbal.

I have never felt like i was struggling for money except right at the start to do the initial expansion of my facilities. After that it just came rolling in. 

 

[KerikBalm]

On 12/16/2015, 6:30:31, Kerbart said:

Use the contracts to get paid for the things you want to achieve; don't execute the contracts merely for the sake of executing contracts. In many cases I'd except a contract that goes along the way of what I want, wait for another contract to show up to make some extra cash along the way and then use the contract to build a space station, or an addition to it, etc.

A science mission to the Mun? Not unless I have a tourist to pay for the ride.

This... sort of

I've reached a point where I have a really good supply of funds, and I use SSTOs to get everything to orbit, have ISRU on both moons of kerbin, and reusable tugs... so I started launching my own missions with no contracts in mind because the cost of getting a payload to orbit is really low (~200 per ton), and from there I can send it on an intercept to basically anywhere "for free" with ISRU supplied tugs.

I still take tourist to orbit contracts, they pay for the fuel cost of my SSTO (even if they don't pay for the payload).

Once I reach a place, I plan on harvesting biome science from it... but I can combine that with survey contracts for example. I already set up ISRU at most places I go (exception, Moho, Eeloo, Tylo.. to maintain the challenge... and Eve because it seems a bit pointless), and those harvest ore contracts are easy money (even the deliver ore to other location contracts... but that involves a bit of an exploit because once you harvest the ore, you can bring any ore from any source to the destination). I was setting up my Eve-Gilly mission, getting close to the departure window, carrying extra crew capacity (I like them to have spacious accomodations on long missions)... and a rescue a kerbal from gilly orbit contract came up... sold! easy money because I had already invested everything needed to get the kerbals to and from Eve & gilly orbit... plus thats an easy way to get another rather experience kerbal

They also did that leadership initiative thing to get you more funds from accomploshin new things.

Does anyone know if they still have explore contracts? or have those been replaced by the achievements?

[Choctofliatrio2.0]

Having the "Test _____ here" contracts makes some sense. No equipment goes untested. But, I figure, once you do a few tests on a part, they shouldn't keep coming up for that part. The game shouldn't keep asking "Test Flea at some unreasonable criteria", if I'm much further in the tech tree.

[StarManta]

15 hours ago, archnem said:

Now I can't even decline the millions of "Rescue this dumbass" or "Test this stupid part under these stupid conditions" contracts without taking a rep penalty.

Er... what? You get a rep penalty for taking the contract and failing it, but are you saying you get one for declining it in the first place?

[MrOsterman]

2 hours ago, Choctofliatrio2.0 said:

Having the "Test _____ here" contracts makes some sense. No equipment goes untested. But, I figure, once you do a few tests on a part, they shouldn't keep coming up for that part. The game shouldn't keep asking "Test Flea at some unreasonable criteria", if I'm much further in the tech tree.

Unless the logic is that later in the tree you have the tools to get a Flea to an exotic testing location.

[TopHeavy11]

DUDE. Calm down. You sound like a science mode kinda guy. You hate the money system, you like to do missions for the SCIENCE. I know that Science mode bores you, but just pretend you got a contract for do stuff, for science!

[Pecan]

2 hours ago, StarManta said:

Er... what? You get a rep penalty for taking the contract and failing it, but are you saying you get one for declining it in the first place?

Exactly so - it's worth reading the announcement of releases and the many threads they generate. 1.0.5 devblog here - http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/developerarticles.html/ksp-105-is-live-r179/.  "Readme.txt" is well named; it's in the main KSP folder on your computer (and in that devblog, so no need to go looking for it now).

Specifically, 

* Contract Decline Penalty: A small reputation penalty is incurred when a contract is declined, to prevent Mission Control from being abused as a slot machine.

 

[Motokid600]

Here's what I did to spice up my current career. And it works REALLY good.

Reduce science and money rewards to about 2 or 3. They can be adjusted later in the persistent file should it be too easy or hard. Rep is whatever you like, but I recommend lowering that to around 5.

Open up cheats menu upon staring a new game ( alt-f12 ) then hold left alt for 5 seconds. This reveals more cheats allowing you to give yourself money, science and rep. We need a lot of each to setup the career before we begin. 

Upgrade the R&D building so you can max out the tech tree. And do just that. With the debug cheats give yourself the resources to unlock every node and buy every part ( make sure you enable part cost entry ) except the science parts. Unlock the nodes, but don't buy the science parts. ( maybe just a thermometer/barometer ) This way the tech tree stays somewhat relevant and you can't load a probe up with every science part. ( You wouldn't be able to afford it anyway )

So now you have the full assortment of parts to play with making it so you can actually create the craft you want in your career. 

Now we move over to the strategies (it's name iirc ) any give yourself enough rep and science to enable the strategy that converts science to funds. Crank it up to 100% so ALL science is converted to funds. After this your done. Zero your science and money in debug then give yourself 10k to start.

Then it's a really good idea to download and install Contract Configurator along with the Advanced Progression Pack and as many others as you like. I also highly recommend Field Research to go along with this play style and Anomaly Surveyor. That's just straight fun. The more contract packs you have the more your going to want to turn down there rewards. 

This way your contracts relate more to what you want to do instead of "test BACC on suborbital trajectory of the Mun ( how stupid is that.. ) You need contracts however because once you run out of local science your going to run out of income. You'll need the contracts to go along with it.

And play. You now need to perform science and contracts to fund the missions you want to carry out. You may have all the parts for a grand tour mission right off the bat, but lol good luck funding it.

 I've been playing like this for a week now and its a completely new, fresh experience.

I also recommend DMagic for this style. More science parts=more avenues to gain funds. And some science parts are very expensive.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Motokid600

[torchic1313]

On 12/17/2015 at 0:18 PM, Pecan said:

Exactly so - it's worth reading the announcement of releases and the many threads they generate. 1.0.5 devblog here - http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/developerarticles.html/ksp-105-is-live-r179/.  "Readme.txt" is well named; it's in the main KSP folder on your computer (and in that devblog, so no need to go looking for it now).

Specifically, 

* Contract Decline Penalty: A small reputation penalty is incurred when a contract is declined, to prevent Mission Control from being abused as a slot machine.

 

What if you never accept a contract? I thought that if you ignored a contract you never selected, it was eventually replaced.

[Pecan]

24 minutes ago, torchic1313 said:

What if you never accept a contract? I thought that if you ignored a contract you never selected, it was eventually replaced.

The pertinent word is 'eventually'.  Ignoring a contract has no penalty, declining it does so you can't just decline loads to speed-up the appearance of one you do want.

[Plusck]

8 minutes ago, Pecan said:

The pertinent word is 'eventually'.  Ignoring a contract has no penalty, declining it does so you can't just decline loads to speed-up the appearance of one you do want.

Well to be fair, the time you have to accept most contracts expires in about 4 days. So "eventually" isn't long at all.

[Randazzo]

Career mode is still my game preference, after a year or so. On rare occasions I will putter about in sandbox to test something, but I've only ever put a real effort into science mode once and found it somewhat lacking for some reason I can't really put my finger on. Admittedly there are large blocks of time in career that I spend bored with it, waiting to get to the next tier and move on, usually once I get to the "Go do stuff on Duna" phase. I'm bored of shooting satellites into orbit by then and it's usually at least a year and a half before the ship can return and bring it's science. This boredom stems from having done basically everything one can do in KSP at least once, if not many times, before.

When I first started playing KSP, career was the only way to go. I had no previous experience in "realistic" space simulation (even if it's not entirely realistic), and had no idea what to do. Sandbox was just ludicrously overwhelming. Science mode was a little confusing, not having much at my disposal and not having any direction. Career mode, and the contracts, are what gave me an idea of what I should be trying for next. Though some of the goals I was given were infuriatingly difficult at the time, it was typically due to my own foolishness and I ultimately learned a lot from the contracts. Sometimes I learned what not to do, ever again.  For the longest time I avoided contracts for putting satellites into any orbit that wasn't equatorial or very close to it. Finally one day I decided I was going to learn how to do it properly and launched myself a NERV powered "probe" into orbit with 7000 dV. It took about half of the fuel I brought, but ultimately I succeeded at last. I doubt I would have tried it in science or sandbox, as I would not have had a reason to do so.

 

TLDR: Because of Career mode, I learned things.  

Edited December 23, 2015 by Randazzo

[Matt77]

On 17/12/2015 at 7:48 PM, Motokid600 said:

Here's what I did to spice up my current career. And it works REALLY good.

You now need to perform science and contracts to fund the missions you want to carry out.

...

Most of the way through this post I must admit I wasn't into it at all.  Til I got to the bold part, where it suddenly makes sense.  Perhaps you should make a mod to set up the starting conditions.

Unless 1.1 brings us a lot of changes to career, I'll try your idea on my 1.1 career.  Though I don't want advanced parts available from the start.  Are the part costs set so that advanced parts are too expensive at first?  I've only had financial problems once in at least 5 runs through the career, and never really look at the cost to build.  When I'm saving for my million funds SPH upgrade, I don't really worry too much about a 20k funds rocket!  Maybe a balance issue right there...

 

[Motokid600]

46 minutes ago, Matt77 said:

Most of the way through this post I must admit I wasn't into it at all.  Til I got to the bold part, where it suddenly makes sense.  Perhaps you should make a mod to set up the starting conditions.

Unless 1.1 brings us a lot of changes to career, I'll try your idea on my 1.1 career.  Though I don't want advanced parts available from the start.  Are the part costs set so that advanced parts are too expensive at first?  I've only had financial problems once in at least 5 runs through the career, and never really look at the cost to build.  When I'm saving for my million funds SPH upgrade, I don't really worry too much about a 20k funds rocket!  Maybe a balance issue right there...

 

Well the only reason I had to fully upgrade my facilities was because Im on the hacked 64bit and had no choice  That and... the restrictions honestly get very old very fast imo. As for part costs that depends on how good of a job the particular mod author did when balancing his/her stuff for career. I cant say for the majority of parts because I just unlock them all right off the bat. However for most science parts ( DMagic ScanSat and whatever else I could get my hands on. )  which I leave locked are balanced and priced very well I find. The buy in is very expensive and part cost iself is also enough to set a simple probe over budget. So far I haven't even unlocked half the science parts I have and last night I made a probe that almost broke my bank at 60k funds and I didn't even put in on a rocket yet. So things get expensive very fast and loosing one would be detrimental. ( I made it a whole hour before revert flight was re-enabled lol ) So yea money is the only hurtle to get over in this play style and is whats keeping you from jumping right to the advanced stuff.

One change I would make from my OP after playing for another week. You need to have your science gain slider maxed out. I went beyond even to 1.2 in the persistent file. Otherwise you don't get enough science for it to pay out adequately. Right now I have it set to 100 science points rewards around 10,000 funds and that seems like a good rate so far.

Edited December 23, 2015 by Motokid600

[Superfluous J]

1 hour ago, Plusck said:

Well to be fair, the time you have to accept most contracts expires in about 4 days. So "eventually" isn't long at all.

To be more fair, exiting the screen, time warping 4 days, going back in, checking the contracts, exiting back out, time warping 4 more days, going back in, and repeating a dozen times or more because the system keeps generating contracts for things you obviously don't want to do can take quite some time. Time that I could instead be playing a video game.

Edited December 23, 2015 by 5thHorseman

[Wallygator]

In my simple world I replaced the word 'contract' with 'quest', vomited a few times and then reverted to all sandbox play. 

[trebizond79]

What about competition? The contracts would work much better (as far as I'm concerned) if I had someone on the other side of the Kerbal Curtain to try to beat to the punch, as it were. At the moment, they just feel like hoops to jump through, but if I knew that the Kerviets were about put Kergarin in orbit and the clock was ticking, I'd be much more motivated