Science for Kerbol's Far Heliosphere

[GarrisonChisholm]

I agree, I have been pining for such a thing for since my first successful Mun landing caused me to look beyond, but it will require someone with an art or craft which I do not here possess.  ...or to say the same without Tolkien trolling, I can be as eager as I'd like, but I know this task is beyond my skills.  I can't *imagine* the prolonged diligence it has taken to create OPM, or many of the other fabulous mods that are out there.

It will take either a moment of brilliance upon the part of a few, or the prolonged interest on the part of many to bring this to fruition.

Maybe I can start by coming up with a Distant Solar Science badge, which folks could tag as silent support for the concept, whether the end result arises from my own particular fall of dominoes or another.

2 hours ago, Astrofox said:

Combine that with lowering the amount of science needed to get the RTG, and we've got ourselves tons of missions.

 

I have thought about this as well, and this is almost necessary for the mod to be worthwhile, as if you are sending a multi-hundred year mission out (best case scenario), you would want to throw it as soon as reasonably possible so-as to have it bear fruit before your career became too stale.

Also, I find that if I want the stock tech tree to last 40 years (as I feel is proper) I will need to make due with only 10% science awards, which would prolong overlong the acquisition of RTGs.

[Astrofox]

I'll have a video and nice little bit of art I did (well, more like scribbles) up tomorrow for this thread (yes, I am planning on putting up a link to the thread in the description).

[Coga19000]

I simply love this idea. It would probably be easy to add, not interfere with anything, and since it is concerned less with other stars and more with the boundaries of our OWN Kerbal System, maybe SQUAD will be a tad more willing to add it!

All of my likes.

[Astrofox]

So, now here's my stuff that I promised:

 

Some (horrible) art I did:

 

And my vid:

I hope you enjoy this stuff.

[GarrisonChisholm]

8 hours ago, Coga19000 said:

I simply love this idea. It would probably be easy to add, not interfere with anything, and since it is concerned less with other stars and more with the boundaries of our OWN Kerbal System, maybe SQUAD will be a tad more willing to add it!

All of my likes.

  I (and others I'm sure!) appreciate your enthusiastic support, but however "easy" it may be from the Developers side of things, it is not easy from the Modders side.

I originally thought it would be as easy as identifying the sections which describe the limits of the different levels of biome altitude over Kerbol and to simply "drop in" new sections with their altitudes.  Well, it alas is not that simple.

Thanks to @Felbourn, we know what the section of code reads as, but where-as I wish it were as easy to do the below;

public class CelestialBodyScienceParams
{
    public float flyingAltitudeThreshold;
    public float FlyingHighDataValue;
    public float FlyingLowDataValue;
    public float InSpaceHighDataValue;
    public float InSpaceLowDataValue;

PUBLIC FLOAT KUIPERBELTVALUE;

PUBLIC FLOAT HELIOPAUSEVALUE;

PUBLIC FLOAT INTERSTELLARSPACEVALUE;
    public float LandedDataValue;
    public float RecoveryValue;
    public float spaceAltitudeThreshold;
    public float SplashedDataValue;

    public CelestialBodyScienceParams();
}

 

It alas is not.  The Program itself does not know how to carve "additional spaces" above objects in space, at least so far as I have been given to understand it.

I wish it were as easy as defining regions and dropping in distance values, but as of this moment I think we are awaiting a bolt of inspiration.  :\

Edited July 29, 2016 by GarrisonChisholm
(...hit Enter too quickly...)

[GarrisonChisholm]

1 hour ago, Astrofox said:

So, now here's my stuff that I promised:

 

Some (horrible) art I did:

 

And my vid:

I hope you enjoy this stuff.

  I can't tell you how delighted I am to find someone else as enthused about these prospects as I.  I will always support art for art's sake, and while none of us can raise a candle to Nassault's work https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiO687O15nOAhUj_4MKHXWqBuUQtwIIKDAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DEgIVnvunLuQ&usg=AFQjCNH6rbTp8bwfvIzzbauzooWzXdvqmw&bvm=bv.128617741,d.amc

I appreciate your contribution indeed.    -  And yours is far better than I could manage!

[ShotgunNinja]

While it is true that the situations of science experiment/subject/data are hardcoded, you can abuse the fact that 'biome' is just a string and can be used as a tag. I tried and it work, you just create a ScienceSubject with an arbitrary biome string and then use the rest of the stock science system machinery. This result in a perfectly sane 'subject_id' of the form "crewReport@KerbinInSpaceHighwhatever" (note the 'whatever' biome). The only drawback of this method is that the R&D archives don't allow to filter for non-defined biomes, but maybe that can be solved.

[Brownhair2]

On 12/19/2015 at 0:30 PM, Branjoman said:

I also love the idea of having biomes within space, rather than just on planets.

Speaking of which, we could have similar "biomes" in areas like the Van Allen belt.

[Astrofox]

@Brownhair2 Yeah, that's true. It may also apply for other planets too.

 

I really want to see this as a feature of Stock KSP, and I hope that the devs catch what we're posting.

Dare I request KasperVld to look at this?

EDIT

Dare I request SQUAD..?

Edited July 31, 2016 by Astrofox

[jwbrase]

On Thursday July 28, 2016 at 1:19 AM, Blaarkies said:

If the craft and the parent planet are the only objects in the universe...wouldn't the planet's SOI be infinite? (Since the parent planet's gravity is more overwhelming than the other nothingness's gravity )

Yes, that was the point of my post: The planet's SOI is infinite (wherever you go, its gravity is always the dominant gravitational influence on you), but you can still achieve escape velocity  (the velocity at which your apoapsis is at an infinite height above the planet).
 

[Astrofox]

I did this yesterday...

 

It took me a lot longer than it really should have:

-I built the probe two days ago, but then I had to do things

-I launched it yesterday, but then the game crashed when I got to a certain point (why there isn't launch footage)

-Tried to Upload overnight, but apparently your computer must still be thoroughly active (can't shut screen - it won't upload)

-Finished the upload today, and posted it as a late submission in the "What did you do today in KSP?" thread.

 

It does have some nice views (well, at some points). Anyways, enjoy (if you can )!

[GarrisonChisholm]

On 7/30/2016 at 7:06 PM, Astrofox said:

@Brownhair2 Yeah, that's true. It may also apply for other planets too.

 

I really want to see this as a feature of Stock KSP, and I hope that the devs catch what we're posting.

Dare I request KasperVld to look at this?

EDIT

Dare I request SQUAD..?

A novel notion, but one that I think should be avoided, for two reasons.  One, when this thread was in its hey-day of visibility over the winter, I actually *did* directly reach out to Kasper about it, which at the time and after the fact decidedly felt improper.  He did not respond, as were he to field requests for mods all day long he would be doing nothing else between breaths.  It is why there is a process in place for mod consideration, and I firmly voice that we should respect that.  I opened a proper "request for Mods" thread in the add-on section, and if 100 people express interest it will draw more notice than 20, and perhaps one day be evaluated for consideration.

2ndly, the Mods area has a very distinctly posted "do not poke the bears" notice, and I'm *pretty* sure tugging the coat-tails of Kasper is tantamount to poking a bear.

@ShotgunNinja, I am surprised but delighted you had results from your experimentation, though I do not understand how it could be possible given what I have learned about the system.  Could you expand upon it with "talking to beginner's" detail?  If it will work, maybe a proper mod-fix is only a post or two away; though I still do not know how it is possible.  -  Illumine me! 

Edited August 2, 2016 by GarrisonChisholm

[Astrofox]

True, @GarrisonChisholm.

Oh, and if you are going to ask as to why I decided to do another interstellar mission again - it's because I'm at the point where I am just sending whatever I can out into deep space.

Plus, why not head to Jool and see what I can encounter.

[ShotgunNinja]

@GarrisonChisholm Yes, no problem. Essentially you need to generate a 'piece of science' (called science subject in the game code) that is associated with some environmental factor that are generated by a mod, or in your case that is associated with a custom situation (that is otherwise impossible to add to the game).

The only possible way to do it that the game offer, is using a custom biome (an arbitrary string). Given that this biome is not a real one, but just a device we can use to 'fool' the system, we can't use real biomes. Therefore, this has to be done ad-hoc from code.

It is sufficient to create a ScienceSubject with custom biome, and then add it to the science system with a call to ResearchAndDevelopment.Instance.SubmitScienceData() function.Note that the fact that what we want to add is not really a biome is of no importance, the user never see it as a biome.

The only drawback of this solution is that the R&D archive filters will not recognize the custom biome, so the science data will be visible in the 'body' and situation filter but not in any of the biomes in the list.

[GarrisonChisholm]

17 hours ago, ShotgunNinja said:

@GarrisonChisholm Yes, no problem. Essentially you need to generate a 'piece of science' (called science subject in the game code) that is associated with some environmental factor that are generated by a mod, or in your case that is associated with a custom situation (that is otherwise impossible to add to the game).

The only possible way to do it that the game offer, is using a custom biome (an arbitrary string). Given that this biome is not a real one, but just a device we can use to 'fool' the system, we can't use real biomes. Therefore, this has to be done ad-hoc from code.

It is sufficient to create a ScienceSubject with custom biome, and then add it to the science system with a call to ResearchAndDevelopment.Instance.SubmitScienceData() function.Note that the fact that what we want to add is not really a biome is of no importance, the user never see it as a biome.

The only drawback of this solution is that the R&D archive filters will not recognize the custom biome, so the science data will be visible in the 'body' and situation filter but not in any of the biomes in the list.

Hm.  Alright, so they won't show as Biomes, but *scientifically* there will be unique science to gather in specified regions.

This is good progress, and good to know, but there are a few issues we should figure out;

Will KER recognize a new biome has been entered?  Will Science Alert (or comparables) trigger?  This strikes me as a modder's conceptual jewel, so if we script something it should work with popular mods.

Will "world first" contracts trigger, or are they dependent upon Biomes or SOIs to trigger?

These two points are key, because while it would be neat to collect the science, I think a lot of folks would feel they'd been jilted if the game didn't "recognize" that a new region/area had been reached.

Over the weekend I had thought of another work-around, though I'm unsure of its repercussions.  What if a second body was placed at the heart of Kerbol, of diminutive size and zero gravity, with its atmospheric layers clamped down to near zero, but its Low Space would be our Kuiper Belt region (~ 1Bkm to 2Bkm), and its High Space would be our Heliopause/Interstellar Space (~2Bkm+).  What repercussions would this have, and could this give us Science *and* Biomes both?

[ShotgunNinja]

@GarrisonChisholm KER is probably using the utilities functions provided by the game engine to detect the biome of the active vessel. ScienceAlert et simila essentially use the same utility functions to get current biome/situation/body and then check if the data is present in the 'R&D archives' so to speak, for all experiment modules of the active vessel.

In both cases they will be unable to detect the 'fake biome', because those utility functions don't know about its existence (nor they can be made to know).

What I had in mind is more easily implementable like a 'custom science experiment module', to replace the stock one. It does exactly the same the stock one does, using the same data. With the only exception that we change the code responsible for generating the 'ScienceSubject' data when the user hit 'run experiment'. And in the custom code we check for arbitrary conditions like altitude above 'custom situation' threshold. If none of the custom conditions apply, we generate the biome/body/situation SubjectData same as stock. If custom condition apply we generate the body/situation/{Custom biome} SubjectData.

Fake body idea is cool, provided it is possible to force the current vessel mainBody to be the fake body instead of the sun, and in some specific situations only (as you want to have the mainBody as Sun when in the inner system for example). It is worth exploring as a solution for the 'kuiper/heliopause' for sure.

[GarrisonChisholm]

15 hours ago, ShotgunNinja said:

@GarrisonChisholm KER is probably using the utilities functions provided by the game engine to detect the biome of the active vessel. ScienceAlert et simila essentially use the same utility functions to get current biome/situation/body and then check if the data is present in the 'R&D archives' so to speak, for all experiment modules of the active vessel.

In both cases they will be unable to detect the 'fake biome', because those utility functions don't know about its existence (nor they can be made to know).

What I had in mind is more easily implementable like a 'custom science experiment module', to replace the stock one. It does exactly the same the stock one does, using the same data. With the only exception that we change the code responsible for generating the 'ScienceSubject' data when the user hit 'run experiment'. And in the custom code we check for arbitrary conditions like altitude above 'custom situation' threshold. If none of the custom conditions apply, we generate the biome/body/situation SubjectData same as stock. If custom condition apply we generate the body/situation/{Custom biome} SubjectData.

Fake body idea is cool, provided it is possible to force the current vessel mainBody to be the fake body instead of the sun, and in some specific situations only (as you want to have the mainBody as Sun when in the inner system for example). It is worth exploring as a solution for the 'kuiper/heliopause' for sure.

I think it depends on how SOI is defined.  It will work if you LEAVE a bodies SOI by passing *below* its LowSpace threshold.  Then, OuterKerbol could be the "parent" body for Heliopause & Kuiperbelt, and when a ship gets below that it would be in Kerbol's HighSpace.  Though, this would toss in the monkey wrench of what is appropriate for the "ghost" body's gravity- zero, or would it need to have equal gravity to Kerbol?

[GarrisonChisholm]

I'm going to shamelessly give this corpse a kick, as it the idea would provide for Kuiper Belt bodies and might be of current-event interest, on the off chance that someone with the code wizzarding skills might take the idea and run with it.