More RemoteTech confusion (no connection)

[ToukieToucan]

So, I got remote tech today and I'm not quite sure how everything still works. Here is my question: I put probe with 2 Reflecton KR-7 (range of 90 Mm) and one communotron 16 (first comm) in a geostationary orbit just above the KSC. One comm is pointing towards the KSC and the other towards the Probe I want to launch. Though the probe I want to launch has no connection how do I fix this?

http://imgur.com/a/2E8XL

Pictures ^^^

Edited January 9, 2016 by ToukieToucan

[Rocket In My Pocket]

Use a free image upload site like Imgur, copy the "Direct Link" then click on the button in the bottom right that says "Insert other media" then click "Insert image from URL" then past that Direct Link into the field.

As far as Remote Tech I have no clue since I don't use it, you might get more help in either the modded install technical support forum http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/forum/70-technical-support-modded-installs/, or the actual thread for that mod. http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/75245-105-remotetech-v169-2015-11-10/

Best of luck!

Edited January 9, 2016 by Rocket In My Pocket

[Stone Blue]

Ummm...

Well, first, I find dishes to be either overkill or useless for Kerbin SoI... Also, Comm16 does not have the range to reach Kerbin surface from keostationary, AND you would need to place at LEAST 5 to get decent overlap at KEO...

Also, I guess I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish?

Being new to RT, here are two links that should be helpful:
 

RemoteTech Player's Guide

and

Visual RemoteTech Planner

 

Your best bet for your 1st, starting network, is to get 4 small sats, with ONLY Comms16 in an LKO, spaced 90° apart, between 700km-1000km.... Save putting anything in KEO til later...And THOSE are where you should put your dishes, which, IMHO, are best for use BEYOND Kerbin SoI...

Since these should be extremely small sats (7-10 parts), I usually place them using a single launch... Using a resonant orbit, which the Visual Planner shows, you can deploy them in the proper spacing (90°) around Kerbin...

Edited January 9, 2016 by Stone Blue

[ToukieToucan]

1 minute ago, Stone Blue said:

Ummm...

Well, first, I find dishes to be either overkill or useless for Kerbin SoI... Also, Comm16 does not have the range to reach Kerbin surface from keostationary, AND you would need to place at LEAST 5 to get decent overlap at KEO...

Also, I guess I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish?

Being new to RT, here are two links that should be helpful:
 

RemoteTech Player's Guide

and

Visual RemoteTech Planner

 

Your best bet for your 1st, starting network, is to get 4 small sats, with ONLY Comms16 in an LKO, between 700km-1000km.... Save putting anything in KEO til later...And THOSE are where you should put your dishes, which, IMHO, are best for use BEYOND Kerbin SoI...

 

The probe I want to launch has no connection on the launchpad, that's why I thought they needed to be in a KEO.

[Snark]

28 minutes ago, ToukieToucan said:

(really annoyed that I can't seem to find any way of adding images directly off my computer on this new forum. So I can' t show you any pictures)

Screenshots are invaluable.  Main thing is to find some site to host the images-- there are various ones that work, my personal favorite is imgur.com since it doesn't require you to create any sort of account.  Just take a screenshot, post it to imgur.com (or wherever), then copy the URL of the uploaded image.  Then when you're writing a message here,  click on the "Insert other media" button at bottom right, choose "Insert image from URL", and paste the URL of the image.  Presto, you've got a screenshot in your forum post.

 

30 minutes ago, ToukieToucan said:

So, I got remote tech today and I'm not quite sure how everything still works. Here is my question: I put probe with 2 Reflecton KR-7 (range of 90 Mm) and one communotron 16 (first comm) in a geostationary orbit just above the KSC. One comm is pointing towards the KSC and the other towards the Probe I want to launch. Though the probe I want to launch has no connection how do I fix this

Communication only works if it's a two-way link.  That is, it's not enough that comsat A is pointing an antenna at probe B; probe B also needs to be listening to A (either with an omnidirectional antenna that's in range, or with a dish antenna that's pointed straight at it).

In the early game when you're mostly in LKO, omnidirectional antennas are your friend.  You don't need to mess with the KR-7 and its ilk until you're sending stuff out past Dres-- the plain ol' 88-88 will work just fine for anything out to and including Duna.

For launching probes, use the DP-10; it's small, light, uses minimal power, can withstand atmospheric launch, and is omnidirectional.  This means that the thing talking to it has to be within 500 km.  Getting to LKO with this requires no relay network, because you can launch and get into orbit while you're still within range of KSC, so it has a direct link home.  Typically you reach LKO when you're around 300 km or so downrange, so you have a minute or two of grace after getting to orbit before you go out of range.  So, either have some other satellites in LKO that can relay to your probe, or else carry some other, longer-range antenna (the Communotron 16, or later 32, are great for this) that you activate as soon as you're high enough that it won't get ripped off by airflow.  If you wait until you're above 40 km to turn it on, you'll be fine.

For your initial relay network to support low-altitude satellites, I'd suggest not trying to make them geostationary.  Instead, put them at a lower altitude of around 1000 km or so, and give them all Communotron 16's.  (Or a bit higher up and give them 32's.)  They don't need to be stationary relative to the ground, just relative to each other.  As long as you have four or more of them, there will always be one in range of KSC and you've got total omnidirectional coverage of all space within a few thousand km of Kerbin.  Then when you want to start sending stuff to farther-away places, all you need to do is put a relay satellite with some longer-range antennas on it (for talking to distant probes) and an omni (for linking into your low-altitude net).

[Stone Blue]

Most people place a DP-10 antenna (500km) on all their launch vehicles...This will connect the ship to KSC, until it goes around the curvature of Kerbin and loses line of sight (LoS) to KSC... Once THAT happens, thats where your 4 LKO comm sats take over...

With 4 sats in LKO (700-1000km), they WILL rotate around Kerbin, and none will be permanently DIRECTLY above KSC, but there will ALWAYS be at least one or two that will be over the horizon, within LoS of KSC...

[ToukieToucan]

3 minutes ago, Snark said:

rks if it's a two-way link.  That is, it's not enough that comsat A is pointing an antenna at probe B; probe B also needs to be listening to A (either with an omnidirectional antenna that's in range, or with a dish antenna that's pointed straight at it).

My probe in KEO has a dish pointed towards KSC and the probe I want to launch. When I try to activate the dish/antenna on the probe I want to launch it says 'no connection to send command on.'

 

Is it normal to have no connection on the launchpad?

7 minutes ago, Snark said:

For your initial relay network to support low-altitude satellites, I'd suggest not trying to make them geostationary.  Instead, put them at a lower altitude of around 1000 km or so, and give them all Communotron 16's.  (Or a bit higher up and give them 32's.)  They don't need to be stationary relative to the ground, just relative to each other.  As long as you have four or more of them, there will always be one in range of KSC and you've got total omnidirectional coverage of all space within a few thousand km of Kerbin.  Then when you want to start sending stuff to farther-away places, all you need to do is put a relay satellite with some longer-range antennas on it (for talking to distant probes) and an omni (for linking into your low-altitude net).

The network at 1000 km will be enough to send probes to minmus right?

[Stone Blue]

It sounds like you have NO antenna on your probe?...Or it is not activated...??

4 minutes ago, ToukieToucan said:

Is it normal to have no connection on the launchpad?

IF you are on the pad with launch stabilizers, you should ALWYAS have a hard-wired connection to KSC... If you are on the pad WITHOUT stabilizers, then you need SOME kind of antenna, properly activated/targeted/powered, whatever... Depends on the antenna...

[ToukieToucan]

8 minutes ago, Stone Blue said:

It sounds like you have NO antenna on your probe?...Or it is not activated...??

IF you are on the pad with launch stabilizers, you should ALWYAS have a hard-wired connection to KSC... If you are on the pad WITHOUT stabilizers, then you need SOME kind of antenna, properly activated/targeted/powered, whatever... Depends on the antenna...

Do dishes count as antennas? If so, it says 'no connection to send command on.' when I try to activate them...

Edited January 9, 2016 by ToukieToucan

[Stone Blue]

Yes dishes are considered antennas... However, at this stage in your game, i would NOT be using dish antennas... Just stick to omnis until you start sending craft out to Minmus or beyond...

If you have a dish currently on the craft you are launching, then it needs to be activated, AND it needs to actually be set to target the craft in KEO... But again, dishes are not best for inner Kerbin SoI...

If it were me, I would pull all the dishes and replace with omnis...

[ToukieToucan]

42 minutes ago, Stone Blue said:

Yes dishes are considered antennas... However, at this stage in your game, i would NOT be using dish antennas... Just stick to omnis until you start sending craft out to Minmus or beyond...

If you have a dish currently on the craft you are launching, then it needs to be activated, AND it needs to actually be set to target the craft in KEO... But again, dishes are not best for inner Kerbin SoI...

If it were me, I would pull all the dishes and replace with omnis...

The problem is I cant even active the antennas on the launchpad.

Edited January 9, 2016 by ToukieToucan

[Snark]

23 minutes ago, ToukieToucan said:

The problem is I cant even active the antennas on the launchpad.

The problem is that you're stuck in a catch-22:

• You can't activate antennas unless you have an active connection.
• You have no active connection because the antennas aren't activated.

Adding to the problem is that for dish antennas, they don't connect to anything unless they're given a specific target.  In practice, this means that every dish-equipped ship also needs to have an omni antenna so that you have a way of talking to it until you hook up the dish.

So how do you get out of this dilemma?  You some options:

• Put a DP-10 omnidirectional antenna on your probe.  It's on by default (i.e. it's already turned on at launch time, unless you specifically deactivated it in the VAB).  That way, the moment you push the "launch" button in the VAB, you already have a connection to KSC that will last until you're either over the horizon or more than 500 km away, which is plenty of leeway to get to LKO even without any other relay satellites.
• Use launch clamps. They provide a connection to KSC even when no connection is available.  Of course, you lose that connection as soon as you blow the clamps, but at least you can turn on an antenna before you do that.

My personal recommendation:  Get in the habit of just sticking a DP-10 onto every unmanned ship, regardless of situation or what you plan to do with it.  It's small, cheap, air-resistant, needs very little power, and gives you automatic connectivity to anything within 500 km, which is a handy flexibility to have.  If you want to put a dish on too, fine, but always include a DP-10.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Snark

[Stone Blue]

30 minutes ago, ToukieToucan said:

The problem is I cant even active the antennas on the launchpad.

I would recover the craft, go to VAB, place a DP-10, and relaunch...

[Alshain]

I concur with Snark's suggestion.  You can also put the DP-10 on a discarded lower stage as long as you remember to deploy your main antenna.  I personally like to restrict myself to Omni networks locally, it just makes things easier.  I only uses dishes to link to another moon or planet, never for the local network.  Those dishes you have on there are really meant to talk to Jool and Eeloo.  With RemoteTech, bigger is not always better.

The basic idea is to build a satellite network of Omni's.  My preferred setup around Kerbin is a 4 satellite setup with C-32's.  That's it, just C-32's.  Then I place one satellite with any dishes and a C32 in synchronous orbit behind the planet from KSC (optionally you can combine this with one of the four but then the four must be synchronous), and finally a Rover parked out by KSC with the same dishes.  So it works like this, any long range planet that has Line of Sight with KSC will use the rover (note: the KSC can reach Minmus without the rover).  If KSC can not be seen it will jump to the big dishes behind Kerbin and be relayed around using the C-32 network to the KSC.

If you need more I'd be happy to take some screenshots, just let me know.  The key is getting your first Omni network in place, everything else is easy after that.  To do that you either need to launch them manned, or be familiar with the RT Flight Computer.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Alshain

[ToukieToucan]

7 hours ago, Alshain said:

I concur with Snark's suggestion.  You can also put the DP-10 on a discarded lower stage as long as you remember to deploy your main antenna.  I personally like to restrict myself to Omni networks locally, it just makes things easier.  I only uses dishes to link to another moon or planet, never for the local network.  Those dishes you have on there are really meant to talk to Jool and Eeloo.  With RemoteTech, bigger is not always better.

The basic idea is to build a satellite network of Omni's.  My preferred setup around Kerbin is a 4 satellite setup with C-32's.  That's it, just C-32's.  Then I place one satellite with any dishes and a C32 in synchronous orbit behind the planet from KSC (optionally you can combine this with one of the four but then the four must be synchronous), and finally a Rover parked out by KSC with the same dishes.  So it works like this, any long range planet that has Line of Sight with KSC will use the rover (note: the KSC can reach Minmus without the rover).  If KSC can not be seen it will jump to the big dishes behind Kerbin and be relayed around using the C-32 network to the KSC.

If you need more I'd be happy to take some screenshots, just let me know.  The key is getting your first Omni network in place, everything else is easy after that.  To do that you either need to launch them manned, or be familiar with the RT Flight Computer.

I think I get it, but what does a rover with dishes add?

ps. The launch of my manned KEO probe was a pain and Jeb nearly died...

pps. I need 30 more science for the DP-10: Poor kerbals...

Edited January 10, 2016 by ToukieToucan

[Alshain]

1 hour ago, ToukieToucan said:

I think I get it, but what does a rover with dishes add?

ps. The launch of my manned KEO probe was a pain and Jeb nearly died...

pps. I need 30 more science for the DP-10: Poor kerbals...

Well, the big dishes at the tracking station only reach Minmus. (Seems odd due to their size, but it's the way RT works)  So if you want to get further out you need a specific dish for each planet.  It doesn't have to be in orbit, it can be parked right outside the KSC with a DP-10 for a quick link (actually not sure you even need that DP-10).  Except that only works  if KSC is in view, the satellite behind takes care of when it is not and that one will need the DTS-M1's for Mun and Minmus.

Alternatively you could put several ground station's down using planes and have no orbital satellites (except the relays that is), but I think that would be harder.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Alshain

[ToukieToucan]

3 minutes ago, Alshain said:

Well, the big dishes at the tracking station only reach Minmus. (Seems odd due to their size, but it's the way RT works)  So if you want to get further out you need a specific dish for each planet.  It doesn't have to be in orbit, it can be parked right outside the KSC with a DP-10 for a quick link (actually not sure you even need that DP-10).  Except that only works  if KSC is in view, the satellite behind takes care of when it is not and that one will need the DTS-M1's for Mun and Minmus.

Alternatively you could put several ground station's down using planes and have no orbital satellites (except the relays that is), but I think that would be harder.

So you don't need a relay system if you want to go to the mun or to minmus right?

 

Also, how do I evenly space out satellites in space?

[Alshain]

Technically no, but it will be a lot easier with one.  Without a relay system you will have to be very good at using the flight computer and sending the commands when KSC is in view.  What you don't need is a long range system for the Mun or Minmus on the KSC side of the planet because the tracking station automatically reaches them.  However, the planet rotates and the moons orbit, so it doesn't stay that way for long.  You still need a long range on the backside of Kerbin from KSC.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Alshain

[ToukieToucan]

2 hours ago, Alshain said:

Technically no, but it will be a lot easier with one.  Without a relay system you will have to be very good at using the flight computer and sending the commands when KSC is in view.  What you don't need is a long range system for the Mun or Minmus on the KSC side of the planet because the tracking station automatically reaches them.  However, the planet rotates and the moons orbit, so it doesn't stay that way for long.  You still need a long range on the backside of Kerbin from KSC.

Ok, after a daring mun flyby piloted by Jeb I got enough science to research the DP-10.

 

This is my plan of launching a relay system in LKO (please correct me if I'm doing stuff wrong):

1. Have a manned ship with 4 satellite probes which have a small fuel tank and a terrier engine (smallest I have) (turns out it became a pretty big structure, it will never be able to fly properly any other tips for this?)

2. Bring manned ship to altitude of 100 km by 150 km

3. Each time I reach the periaps with my main ship I'll release a probe which will then circularize the orbit to 150 peri and 150 km apo. (4x)

 

Will this create an evenly spaced relay system?

Edited January 10, 2016 by ToukieToucan

[Stone Blue]

34 minutes ago, ToukieToucan said:

Ok, after a daring mun flyby piloted by Jeb I got enough science to research the DP-10.

 

This is my plan of launching a relay system in LKO (please correct me if I'm doing stuff wrong):

1. Have a manned ship with 4 satellite probes which have a small fuel tank and a terrier engine (smallest I have)

2. Bring manned ship to altitude of 100 km by 150 km

3. Each time I reach the periaps with my main ship I'll release a probe which will then circularize the orbit to 150 peri and 150 km apo. (4x)

 

Will this create an evenly spaced relay system?

1. Yes... Just make sure you have a Comm16 on each sat

2. That orbit is way too low for relay network...  For Comm16, I would place them in optimal orbit of 1000km... So you would go to 1000km, circularize, release 1st sat, then drop PE to 441.5km.... Then on each orbit, when you hit AP (1000km), you release a sat, until all 4 are deployed... They should be deployed @ 90° at that point... And youre done...

If you look at the website I posted ( Viual RemoteTech Planner ), you can see in the very bottom, left box, it shows both the upper and lower resonant orbit for your target orbit.

For example, on the right, enter: Body: Kerbin; Count: 4 (sats); Altitude: 1000 (km); Antenna: Comm16

You'll see in the Multiple View window at the bottom, the lower resonant orbit for this setup is 441.5km

Also, the Night View window shows how much battery storage you need... The Multiple View window is the one that shows the upper & lower resonant orbits... (Use the Lower one when you can, as it requires less dV to "fall" into it from your target orbit, than to "climb" into the upper orbit from your target orbit...)

3. I pretty much covered this in 2.    Except you release each sat at AP, if you are in a LOWER resonant orbit...Release at each PE ONLY, if you are in an UPPER resonant orbit...
As to circularization, theres two ways to do it:
 

1.  As the launch vehicle reaches release point (AP or PE), circularize the WHOLE craft into target orbit, then release the sat, which is now in the proper orbit, burn launch vehicle back into resonant orbit, warp to next release point and repeat till all sats are deployed
2. As the launch vehicle reaches release point (AP or PE), release the sat, switch vessel to the sat, circularize the sat, switch back to the launch vehicle, warp to next release point and repeat till all sats are deployed

The difference between the two, is that in #1, your launch vehicle does all the burns that puts the sat into its target orbit... Thus you can have smaller, cheaper sats because they have no fuel or propulsion
In #2, each sat must have its own fuel and propulsion to circularize itself.

Personally, i use #1... I DO put the small toroidal LFO tank, and the smallest ANT motor on each sat, for fine tuning each sats orbit, as well as for future correction when the sats drift...

 

Edited January 10, 2016 by Stone Blue

[Alshain]

The terrier is going to be too big anyway.  When positioning your satellite you want as little thrust as you can get, I typically use Oscar B tanks with the Ant engine and even then I turn the thrust limiter down in order to get the best possible orbital period.  Otherwise your constellation will drift out of sync with each other.

 

For orbits, I recommend this website.  It will also help you plan power.

https://ryohpops.github.io/kspRemoteTechPlanner/

[ToukieToucan]

47 minutes ago, Stone Blue said:

1. Yes... Just make sure you have a Comm16 on each sat

2. That orbit is way too low for relay network...  For Comm16, I would place them in optimal orbit of 1000km... So you would go to 1000km, circularize, release 1st sat, then drop PE to 441.5km.... Then on each orbit, when you hit AP (1000km), you release a sat, until all 4 are deployed... They should be deployed @ 90° at that point... And youre done...

If you look at the website I posted ( Viual RemoteTech Planner ), you can see in the very bottom, left box, it shows both the upper and lower resonant orbit for your target orbit.

For example, on the right, enter: Body: Kerbin; Count: 4 (sats); Altitude: 1000 (km); Antenna: Comm16

You'll see in the Multiple View window at the bottom, the lower resonant orbit for this setup is 441.5km

Also, the Night View window shows how much battery storage you need... The Multiple View window is the one that shows the upper & lower resonant orbits... (Use the Lower one when you can, as it requires less dV to "fall" into it from your target orbit, than to "climb" into the upper orbit from your target orbit...)

3. I pretty much covered this in 2.    Except you release each sat at AP, if you are in a LOWER resonant orbit...Release at each PE ONLY, if you are in an UPPER resonant orbit...
As to circularization, theres two ways to do it:
 

1.  As the launch vehicle reaches release point (AP or PE), circularize the WHOLE craft into target orbit, then release the sat, which is now in the proper orbit, burn launch vehicle back into resonant orbit, warp to next release point and repeat till all sats are deployed
2. As the launch vehicle reaches release point (AP or PE), release the sat, switch vessel to the sat, circularize the sat, switch back to the launch vehicle, warp to next release point and repeat till all sats are deployed

The difference between the two, is that in #1, your launch vehicle does all the burns that puts the sat into its target orbit... Thus you can have smaller, cheaper sats because they have no fuel or propulsion
In #2, each sat must have its own fuel and propulsion to circularize itself.

Personally, i use #1... I DO put the small toroidal LFO tank, and the smallest ANT motor on each sat, for fine tuning each sats orbit, as well as for future correction when the sats drift...

 

What about using the DP-10 for a relay system?

 

Also how much Delta V is needed to do method #1 of step three in a 1000 km orbit for four satellites?

[Stone Blue]

27 minutes ago, ToukieToucan said:

What about using the DP-10 for a relay system?

 

Also how much Delta V is needed to do method #1 of step three in a 1000 km orbit for four satellites?

DP-10 range is WAY too small for relay use... You would need a LOT of them, (like 14 sats in a 400km orbit), and coverage would only be for a (relatively) narrow band... For probably less cost, time & effort, you could get better coverage with just 4 Comm16 sats...

Have you looked at the Visual RT Planner site that both I & Alshain have posted? The main window shows pink circles, representing the range coverage of selected antennas... You'll see the DP-10 is only good for (relatively) very short distances...

Sorry, I cant really answer about necessary dV right now... I'm too lazy to do dV calcs, or even to use KER for it, wen I build craft... So I typically over-build my craft a bit, as far as fuel & propulsion... I usually tweak them as needed once I've launched a couple of times, and see how far my 1st setup gets me, and/or how much fuel is left over, or too short...

I'm sure Alshain, or someone can post up actual numbers...

Edited January 10, 2016 by Stone Blue

[Snark]

1 hour ago, Stone Blue said:

That orbit is way too low for relay network...  For Comm16, I would place them in optimal orbit of 1000km...

I agree that 150 km is too low, but I'd suggest that 1000 is a bit high.  I'd suggest going for a lower altitude, like 500 km, and having a few more satellites.

Rationale:  It's useful for an LKO ship with just a DP-10 to be able to connect to the communications network.  For example, if you have an unmanned probe that's reentering, and you'd like it to be controllable during descent, and you happen not to be bringing it down right on top of KSC.

[ToukieToucan]

26 minutes ago, Stone Blue said:

7 minutes ago, Snark said:

I agree that 150 km is too low, but I'd suggest that 1000 is a bit high.  I'd suggest going for a lower altitude, like 500 km, and having a few more satellites.

Rationale:  It's useful for an LKO ship with just a DP-10 to be able to connect to the communications network.  For example, if you have an unmanned probe that's reentering, and you'd like it to be controllable during descent, and you happen not to be bringing it down right on top of KSC.

DP-10 range is WAY too small for relay use...

Have you looked at the Visual RT Planner site that both I & Alshain have posted? The main window shows pink circles, representing the range coverage of selected antennas... You'll see the DP-10 is only good for (relatively) very short distances...

Sorry, I cant really answer about necessary dV right now... I'm too lazy to do dV calcs, or even to use KER for it... So I typically over-build my craft a bit, as far as fuel & propulsion... I usually tweak them as needed once I've launched a couple of times, and see how far my 1st setup gets me, and/or how much fuel is left over, or too short...

 

So 4 satellites with comm 16 and a dp 10 need to be launched at equal distances right?

To space it evenly I could have an orbit of 250 km and 500 km and then let the probes circularize to 500 km after reaching Periaps each time with the main ship, right?