Can any possible gun experts help me identify this?

[SlabGizor117]

I know this is a bad place for it, but I don't know where else to go.  So here's the album:

http://imgur.com/a/xeKk2

The pictures are opposite of what they should be but I'm on mobile, sorry.  In the first picture, there are three markings on the top and each sides of the barrel there.  One side says Trent, the top says P.F. In fancy writing and on the right it says KN 891.  Any ideas? I assume it's American and I suspect it's some 7.62 marksman rifle.  Any ideas?  Also, the bolt is welded to the receiver and however the magazine works, I believe something there is welded too.  Would it be a bad idea to dremel it or something so hat I could get the bolt to open and close?

[pincushionman]

If it's been de-mil'd and you want it restored, you need a proper gunsmith to ensure it's safe. It would be unwise to assume that "the bolt is welded to the receiver" is the ONLY thing wrong with it.

[Kozak]

Looks like there's still a round chambered, heh.

Where'd you find it? like, the city and place, depending on what battles were fought there we can narrow it down to a few types of rifles. Though it looks shockingly similar to an M1 Garand (to me at least)

[SlabGizor117]

I'm not interested in restoring it, it's my grandmothers, only in freeing the bolt for "the fun of it", being able to do more than just look at it, so my question was whether it would be a bad idea to use a dremel for it.  The bolt is only welded with one small weld that would probably be fine after you cleaned it up.  As for where I found it, it's been hanging on the wall as long as I remember, and I think my grandmother said it was from an antique shop, thus why it was welded.  I know it's not an M1, the bolt is different and it's also lever action anyways, but it looks to be around that time.  I've never seen anything like it, so it may be a more obscure gun.

[Camacha]

Make sure that undoing whatever is done to that gun is legal under your local law. Even if it is not safe to fire, having something that potentially could might fall in a different category and be the difference between owning a gun shaped lump of metal and an illegal firearm.

[Thiagobs]

Did some digging and looks like its an italian Vetterli-Vitali 1870/87

The "PP" in fancy letters (not actually PF) means "Parti Permutabili", or Interchangeable Parts.

The "TERNI" (not actually Trent) means it was built in that italian city

 

Aaand here's an old auction with some photos of a preserved one for comparison:

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/11349599

 

Now, I'm no gun expert or anything, I just did some digging, so no use to ask me anything else about it

[SlabGizor117]

Oh sweet! That's the one! Nice to know what it is, I'm surprised it's Italian.  Does anyone know what would be a good place to call to ask about legally freeing the bolt? I doubt it would be usable without blowing yourself up anyways, but who should I ask? Local police? Some gun organization?

[pincushionman]

A licensed gunsmith.

I know you said you don't intend to restore it, but simply cutting the bolt free may be enough to make it dangerously functional, so you need to take any work you do on it very seriously.

Local gun club members might know, but they'd probably point you to a gun shop anyway, so why complicate things? A gunsmith's job is building, maintaining, and restoring these things, and it won't cost anything to just show it to them.

They would also be in a position to know what steps need to be taken to properly de-mil the piece, such as welding a rod down the barrel and painting the muzzle orange.

[pTrevTrevs]

Huh, I would have thought it to be a US made Krag-Jorgensen, those were used in the Spanish-American war. After closer investigation though, I realized the Krag doesn't have a magazine that comes down below the rifle like yours, has a smaller barrel, and lacks a bayonet lug. At first glance I thought it could also be a Mosin-Nagant, but the barrel is too big and the bayonet mount is way too big (seriously, it looks like a Mosin-Nagant and a Springfield rifle musket had a kid).

If you want this restored, I would just take it to a professional gunsmith, working on guns yourself can be very, very, very difficult. Trust me, I've had to help disassemble and repair my Winchester Model 1894 rifle one time, the amount of guts you can fit in one gun is mind-boggling.

Edited January 16, 2016 by pTrevTrevs

[GoSlash27]

I wonder why the bolt has been welded shut. Even most places with strict gun control don't worry about bolt action rifles.

 I would imagine there's some legal reason for it. *shrug*

Best,

-Slashy

[GoSlash27]

Assuming you are in America, it appears to be perfectly legal for you to grind the weld off the bolt, but you will need to do something else to render it incapable of firing. Otherwise you would be illegally owning a functional war surplus import.

 You could do this by obstructing the chamber or cross- drilling/ cutting the receiver. Legally, anything that renders it incapable of firing in a way that can't be easily fixed is fair game.

 It's a good thing you don't want to fire it, because those rifles are notoriously weak. The ones that are here legally (imported prior to the ban) are considered niche collector firearms and not worth much even in really good condition.

Best,

-Slashy

Edited January 17, 2016 by GoSlash27

[Camacha]

15 hours ago, GoSlash27 said:

After doing some research, it appears to be perfectly legal for you to grind the weld off the bolt, but you will need to do something else to render it incapable of firing. Otherwise you would be illegally owning a functional war surplus import.

Since you did not mention which jurisdiction you are talking about (nor did anyone else), this is false. Without knowing what country and region we are talking about, any and all legal advice should be treated as bothworthless and dangerous.

It seems to be a habit on the KSP forums to implicitly assume a certain region and make absolute legal statements, often with serious and dire consequences if followed. Doing what is suggested in your post could land you multiple years in prison in some countries. Squad itself is Mexican and KSP fans hail from all corners of the world, so making assumptions regarding localisation is unwise.

[GoSlash27]

Camacha,

 Good point. I will amend it.

Best,

-Slashy

[tater]

It's a rifle, you can likely do whatever you like to it short of making it full-auto in the US broadly (if it were a semi that you could get to slam-fire by screwing with the sear, for example, THAT would be illegal nationally). Some cities have really draconian gun laws even if no States do, however. Whichever cities have the worst crime rates likely have the most strict laws, even with long guns. DC, for example would require a permit once functional. You can google gun laws and your city/state and know pretty much instantly what is allowed.

Best bet as said above would be to take it to a gunsmith. He will almost certainly tell you that it's not something worth messing with since it would likely cost more to fix than simply buying a new gun. i'd imagine they might led it for use as a wall-hanger someplace public (restaurant?), or perhaps as a prop.

 

[DrMarlboro]

I can confirm that Slash has figured out what it his, however, if you are based in the states, I would advise going here http://www.thehighroad.org/ for any questions regarding legality of what you are planning to do short of actually speaking to an attorney that deals with gun cases in your area. When doing your own research, remember that case law usually trumps codified law. I've delt with similar issues in different areas, and even though it seems like it would be ok in most of the US, it might not actually be.

[SlabGizor117]

Wow.. This is really complicated.  To Trevs, as I said, I have no interest in restoring it, just freeing the bolt so I can, for lack of a better word with it being a firearm, "play with it".  As for the orange tip, I've also had an interest in airsoft, and it's perfectly legal to remove the orange tip as long as you have any decent common sense, like not to show it in public outside a field, orange or not.  So the only thing I would do is just block the barrel, then.  Any suggestions on how to do permanently?

[pincushionman]

2 hours ago, SlabGizor117 said:

…"play with it"…

I was afraid you were going to say that.

[dadmode]Guns are tools, not toys. "Playing" with them can promote bad habits about gun safety. Bad habits can lead to accidents, and when guns are involved, accidents can be a whole lot worse than bloody noses and broken arms.[/dadmode]

Now, you shouldn't assume I don't think guns can't be fun. Quite the opposite, in fact. Recreational shooting is, after all, a thing. But the guns are always dangerous and need to be treated with respect.

[SlabGizor117]

Wow... I know I gave no indication of former gun experience or explanation that I knew that wasn't a good way to put it, but I hope you know I at least have common sense.  I know it could be usable if I freed the bolt, and I know I would legally need to do something else to disable it, but first of all, this use some crappy 6.05mm ammo, and it's a decoration piece, not meant to be a real gun.  There's no way I would get any live ammo for it, or a clip to hold them.  I know guns aren't toys, but since I haven't been around guns a lot(which doesn't mean I don't know anything about them or the safety rules for them), I thought it would be cool to free the bolt and see more about the gun.

I understand it's a real gun, I understand how to not be an idiot with a gun.  But I have to disagree about whether treating a possibly 100 year old gun differently from a real, functional gun, would give me any bad habits about it.  I'm not scared of this gun.  I am scared of any other functional guns, .22 to .50, in that I am more than capable of having common sense, though.  It doesn't promote bad gun habits to disassemble a gun and look down the barrel, for whatever reason you may need to in maintenance of the gun.  You've checked and double checked the chamber, put it on safe, and removed the bolt.  Of course that's not dangerous to look down a barrel removed from a gun, and I don't believe that freeing the bolt of a ~100 year old gun would be any more dangerous when I know there's no way for it to be dangerous unless I beat myself over the head with it.

Yes, that was a bad idea to say it that way.  Yes I didn't clarify(until now) that I have any decent knowledge guns and how to be safe with them.  But it can't be so hard to tell that I have any common sense about something like this.  Not even this specific gun, but my habits around real guns in relation to the gun in this thread are only a question of common sense, and it seems unreasonable for you to question even that..

Edited January 20, 2016 by SlabGizor117

[dr_jt]

Nice little wiki article on the firearm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vetterli_rifle

 

[pincushionman]

@Slabgizor117, if I insulted your intelligence in my post, I apologize for that. It wasn't my intent to do so.

But hear me out on this.

• I don't know you from Adam. I don't know if you have any experience with firearms, or how much exposure you might have had with them at home.
• How smart you are doesn't matter; A great many gun injuries are accidents (I'd say most, probably, but I wasn't able to tell from the information I could easily find, so let's just stick with "many"). Accidents aren't caused by dumb people; they're caused by people who make mistakes. Smart people are as prone to this as anybody else.
• I'm not so naive to believe that if you misuse a firearm, it's a sure sign that somebody is going to be injured or killed. Lots of different things get misused every day and nobody gets hurt because of it. But by not misusing something, you eliminate, as much as you can, any risk of accident-due-to-misuse.
• In the United States - where I am posting from (I don't know where you are) - there is controversy about guns. Whether your position is for or against, somebody is going to take issue with it. Especially if said position implies, rightly or wrongly, a lack of respect for safety. "Plays with" does this, to the general public.
• This forum is not dedicated to gun enthusiasts or experts.

Now, that last part's the real rub here. We may not be dedicated to guns here, but our pages and threads are viewable by the public. We even show up in Google results. That means anybody and their mother could accidentally stumble on this thread - including kids who may not know better. Vanishlingly unlikely, but I know I would be heartbroken if it turns out some kid stumbled on our conversation here, saw smart people talking about playing with guns like it was no big thing, got the wrong idea, and somebody ended up getting hurt because nobody took the time to stress the seriousness of this. The posts above between Camcha and GoSlash27 is kinda similar - we don't want to be giving out bogus legal advice either.

The [dadmode] I inserted isn't entirely a joke - the thought of my sons finding bad information on the internet and then doing something totally stupid because they didn't check up on it first frankly scares the pants off of me. I really am concerned about anyone - you, me, random joe on his web broser - getting the wrong idea about this simply because of how the conversation went.

So again, I'm sorry for any insult implied by my post. But I hope you can understand were I'm coming from, and why I posted what I did.

We cool now?

[SlabGizor117]

I understand guns aren't anything to play with and I made it clear that I didn't have any better way to put it, but I disagree still that "unsafe",

(In quotes because what would be considered unsafe handling in a more usable gun[with ammo, a magazine to put it in, or a functional firing mechanism] I wouldn't call unsafe since it's already guaranteed that nobody is going to be hurt with it)

handling of the gun would cause any mistakes in my handling of a more functional, usable gun.  As you said, since most injuries from guns are accidents, and mistakes, the probability of a mistake leading to such an injury would be lowered with someone who had better discipline and more experience, but I don't believe that the before-mentioned "unsafe handling" of an antique gun would damage any habits enough to worry about whether mistakes would be more often made.

As for anyone else seeing this conversation and the subsequent discussion on gun safety it created, if it still caused any accident with another person's gun, I would argue that any mistake made as a result would be because of faulty reasoning and bad parenting.

I understand your concern and I appreciate the priority you have on gun safety, but I promise you, I'm not enough of an idiot to take any bad habits away from this discussion or my decisions in the handling of a gun like this to make a mistake like that.

[Gojira1000]

Just take it to a gunsmith. And never shoot it. Anything that old and Italian is potentially a pipe-bomb.