Node Symbols ☊ / ☋ instead of AN / DN

[bv1]

Here's a small suggestion that would make things just a little nicer. Why not replace the AN and DN symbols for the ascending and descending nodes in the map screen with their actual symbols ☊ and ☋? I for one think that this small change would make the map screen look even cooler.

[AlamoVampire]

Imho AN/DN are just fine as is, and is easier to understand than what looks like a pair of omegas

[pandaman]

1 hour ago, AlamoVampire said:

Imho AN/DN are just fine as is, and is easier to understand than what looks like a pair of omegas

I tend to agree with this ^

Nothing wrong with using the symbols and it's a nice idea, but they need to be easily distinguishable in game and those look very similar, and probably more so on screen with other stuff going on around them.

[nikokespprfan]

Playing devils advocate here.

You could also argue that, in space, since there is no up and down, calling it an ascending or descending node is kind of ridiculous. They are basically the same thing, just the orientation differs. The symbols aren't much different, they are the same, but the orientation differs. Instead of learning which one is the ascending node or the descending node, you would learn to read the orientation of the 'scending' node from the orientation of the symbol.

TL;DR, It spares new players from having to learn the difference between two things that are the same (apart from orientation that is).

 

[Alshain]

4 hours ago, nikokespprfan said:

Playing devils advocate here.

You could also argue that, in space, since there is no up and down, calling it an ascending or descending node is kind of ridiculous.

It makes perfect sense, because it isn't ascending/descending relative to space, it is ascending/descending relative to a defined plane of reference.  Your simplest plane of reference is geocentric (or keocentric if you must).  This is the equatorial plane, if you pass through that plane, you have crossed either the ascending or descending node.  If you are traveling closer to the north pole you crossed the ascending node and if you are traveling closer to the south pole you passed through the descending node (for geocentric)

I also agree that symbols are not the best option.  You could include both but don't remove the actual AN/DN descriptors.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Alshain

[Snark]

5 hours ago, nikokespprfan said:

You could also argue that, in space, since there is no up and down, calling it an ascending or descending node is kind of ridiculous. They are basically the same thing, just the orientation differs.

 

1 hour ago, Alshain said:

If you are traveling closer to the north pole you crossed the ascending node and if you are traveling closer to the south pole you passed through the descending node (for geocentric)

Except that it's not arbitrary, it's independent of orientation, and it's not dependent on any fixed frame of reference like north/south, either.  It's relative to the orbit's angular momentum.

"Normal" and "antinormal" are absolute phenomena not dependent on a particular frame of reference.  "Normal" is defined as the perpendicular-to-plane direction around which your orbital motion is counterclockwise; anti-normal, the opposite.

Ascending/descending node are relative to orbital normal/antinormal, not any particular planet.  "Ascending node" is when the target orbit transitions from being on the normal side of your orbit to the antinormal side.  If you're orbiting Kerbin retrograde and your target is the Mun, then your ascending node is when you transition from the north to the south.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Snark

[bv1]

20 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

Imho AN/DN are just fine as is, and is easier to understand than what looks like a pair of omegas

18 hours ago, pandaman said:

I tend to agree with this ^

Nothing wrong with using the symbols and it's a nice idea, but they need to be easily distinguishable in game and those look very similar, and probably more so on screen with other stuff going on around them.

I don't understand how it would be difficult to distinguish the two. That's like saying that "b" and "d or "u" and "n" look too similar, so we shouldn't use them.

[AlamoVampire]

@bv1 then you must be running a very large screen in which the most minute of detail is the size of godzilla. The blunt truth is, AN and DN are faster to spot and far simpler to recognize. The "true" symbols are too closely resembling the greek letter OMEGA. It is easier, simpler, more user friendly and NEW PLAYER friendly to leave things as they are. Why muddy the waters any further?

Edited January 17, 2016 by AlamoVampire

[pandaman]

4 hours ago, bv1 said:

I don't understand how it would be difficult to distinguish the two. That's like saying that "b" and "d or "u" and "n" look too similar, so we shouldn't use them.

The thing is they can look similar.  When we see them as letters as part of a word our brain fills in the details, so it doesn't show.  If you see them as small pixelated individual symbols in random places on the screen with other stuff going on around them they get camouflaged.  Also, in this case, we are looking a the difference between a capital A and D, one is pretty much a pointy triangle while the other is not too far off a round circle, you don't need to be able to actually read them to see the difference.  And I often still have to look twice to make sure I identify them properly.

Those two symbols are in essence identical, it's just that one is shown upside down, the biggest difference is that the circles on one are at the top of the symbol and at the bottom on the other.  I really like the idea of using 'proper' symbols where possible, but if doing so makes it harder to see what's going on on the screen then a different solution needs to be used.

This kind of thing can make a huge difference to how playable any game is, well designed easily identifiable icons can make a game so much better to play, it's just that you don't really notice of it's done well enough.

[Norpo]

Thing is; they match the Ap and Pe markers: the AN and DN markers follow the "Two letters" format. Why fix it if it matches, and it aint broke? It's simple, easily distinctive, and matches the look of the other orbital markers in the game. This would make the An/Dn markers a special case; and special cases are bad UI design if done badly; I find.

 

7 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

@bv1 then you must be running a very large screen in which the most minute of detail is the size of godzilla. The blunt truth is, AN and DN are faster to spot and far simpler to recognize. The "true" symbols are too closely resembling the greek letter OMEGA. It is easier, simpler, more user friendly and NEW PLAYER friendly to leave things as they are. Why muddy the waters any further?

I agree that the suggested icons would be harder to recognize (for one thing, there's that huge white space in the middle, and the outward lines are thin) but you lost me on the "closely resembling the greek letter omega" bit. Why does that even matter? As far as I can tell; omega isn't used in any other place in KSP; and it seems distinctive enough that looking at it closely would show it's not omega. (either that, or one would assume the devs love crazy fonts)

I changed a screenshot of the game that I found to show what it might look like in-game:

Original:

Edited (note, I edited the colour of the ☊ ☋ icons to make them somewhat easier to see):

 

Which one is easier to see and to tell apart? Well, you be the judge; but I personally think that the original is easier to see; especially in the middle of all the other icons, near the maneuver node.

[AlamoVampire]

Ill pretend to be a new player with a question. "What does the omega symbol mean and why is one upside down and why do they have little circles on them? Doesnt anyone know thats not how you make an omega?"

see my issue? Not only are they confusing the chance to make a new player confused or worse is too high. AN and DN strips those chances. Also there is, and this is the most vital thing, 0 coding to leave them be.

that single change in code has the potential to break many lines of code not only in the stock game but how many mods? No. Risk too high on too many fronts. 

[Snark]

4 hours ago, Norpo said:

Thing is; they match the Ap and Pe markers: the AN and DN markers follow the "Two letters" format. Why fix it if it matches, and it aint broke? It's simple, easily distinctive, and matches the look of the other orbital markers in the game. This would make the An/Dn markers a special case; and special cases are bad UI design if done badly; I find.

This.  A thousand times, this.

 

Plus, one other thing that has nothing to do with the actual game, but would affect me a lot 'coz I'm here in the forums all the time:  How the dickens am I supposed to type that symbol?

Yes, I know it's technically possible (after all, other folks in here have done it).... but it would be a major pain in the fundament.  Far easier to just type "AN" or "DN".  In fact, it would be so much easier that I suspect that practically everybody would do that... and now how is a poor newbie supposed to understand what we're talking about?  How many times are we going to have to explain that "this symbol <rummage rummage god dammit where the hell did someone use it oh there it is copy paste> is referred to as AN and <rummage rummage rattin frattin argh oh here it is copy paste> is referred to as DN"?

And if it's that hard for me, what would it be like for a newbie?  How is the newbie supposed to type it, when they have no idea how and aren't in the habit of typing it all the time?  Try to describe "that weird symbol" to the forum?  How many newbies are going to say "ascending node" when they mean "descending node" because they've gotten the terms mixed up, and hilarity ensues because everybody's talking at cross purposes?

Keep it the way it is, gets my vote.

Edited January 17, 2016 by Snark

[Kuansenhama]

Why not add the option to toggle the view of the map mode between 'symbol mode' and 'lettered mode'? Defaults to lettered mode as to not scare off newcomers, but you can change over to the symbol mode if you know what you're doing and you want to get familiar with the symbols used in real orbital mechanics. That's what my vote is on.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Kuansenhama

[Hysterrics]

I think I might the only person here who thinks it's a good idea. Next to it would be ascending node/descending node upon hovering over them.

Now, one might say that it would confuse newer players, but newer players don't know what AN/DN means anyway. And if they do need to know, they can hover over them(such as what I stated previously)
In my opinion, I think it would make the game feel a little more true to reality.
 

[Warzouz]

Symbols are always less understandable as words (or initials). You immediately recognized letters and their "value" gives you a clue on what it's about. Symbols don't.

I had to look several times at your symbols to understand what the represent. Now, I imagine that would be even harder on a real navigation map.

Finally, symbols can be understood backwards. It's the case of buttons to open or close door you can find in lifts.

[John FX]

I like An/Dn myself.

Even they could be a little larger and easier to see for my preference. Those symbols are really hard to see though.