Putting MPL in LKO

[bewing]

I have a question for all the players who have put a Mobile Processing Lab in LKO to grind out science points from Kerbin data.

Anyone who has actually done this probably knows that there is a trick involved. You have to get the science experiments from the ground into the MPL.

Method 1 involves either launching the MPL with an SSTO, or launching the experimental data up to an MPL (in orbit) with an SSTO. Either of these makes it easy. But if you have the tech for an SSTO, then what the heck are you doing just launching your first MPL? So I think we can rule Method 1 out.

Method 2 always involves somehow getting all the experimental data from the ground to the tippy top of a rocket sitting on the launchpad.

My first thought on how to do it was a damned ladder going all the way up. (Groan.)

My second thought was a flying bedstead .... You fly it up near the top of the rocket, turn on SAS, the scientist takes the data, then jumps over to .... Nah.

So yeah, the first time I did it, I made the damned ladder all the way up the side of the rocket, boosters and all.

This time through, I made a horrifying monstrosity that is a sort of mobile gantry. The rocket is on the pad, and I drive up to it with the gantry. Then climb up the gantry tower and into the MPL with all the data. Then recover the gantry. Then launch the rocket. Maybe I'll post a picture if anyone wants a good belly laugh. But this just seems so pathetic.

What else have you all tried? Does anyone have something that seems like a good answer to the trick?

 

[CAKE99]

13 minutes ago, bewing said:

Maybe I'll post a picture if anyone wants a good belly laugh.

I'd like a picture!

14 minutes ago, bewing said:

What else have you all tried? Does anyone have something that seems like a good answer to the trick?

A short and wide rocket would be easier.

[monophonic]

A bottom-pod design might work. But I did something completely different: I brought the data with a lightweight mission from Minmus. If course a MPL there would give more science, but I didn't feel like building that big a transfer stage at the time.

[loch.ness]

58 minutes ago, bewing said:

I have a question for all the players who have put a Mobile Processing Lab in LKO to grind out science points from Kerbin data.

Anyone who has actually done this probably knows that there is a trick involved. You have to get the science experiments from the ground into the MPL.

Method 1 involves either launching the MPL with an SSTO, or launching the experimental data up to an MPL (in orbit) with an SSTO. Either of these makes it easy. But if you have the tech for an SSTO, then what the heck are you doing just launching your first MPL? So I think we can rule Method 1 out.

Method 2 always involves somehow getting all the experimental data from the ground to the tippy top of a rocket sitting on the launchpad.

My first thought on how to do it was a damned ladder going all the way up. (Groan.)

My second thought was a flying bedstead .... You fly it up near the top of the rocket, turn on SAS, the scientist takes the data, then jumps over to .... Nah.

So yeah, the first time I did it, I made the damned ladder all the way up the side of the rocket, boosters and all.

This time through, I made a horrifying monstrosity that is a sort of mobile gantry. The rocket is on the pad, and I drive up to it with the gantry. Then climb up the gantry tower and into the MPL with all the data. Then recover the gantry. Then launch the rocket. Maybe I'll post a picture if anyone wants a good belly laugh. But this just seems so pathetic.

What else have you all tried? Does anyone have something that seems like a good answer to the trick?

 

I've not done the big ladder thing before - but I built a launch tower to take pictures of my suited crew walking towards a Saturn V-ish rocket once.

 

The trick is the radially attach a hitchiker can to the launch clamps of your rocket then use the crew-transfer function.  Would work with a pod too, I did this in sandbox.

[bewing]

The science data won't transfer with the crew. It'll stay in the pod where the crew boarded.

 

[Foxster]

Assuming your MPL is in orbit and you are shipping up experiment data then something like this will do it...

First stage will get you to orbit with lots of dV to spare. The payload craft has 2500dV+ for rendezvous+docking just about wherever your MPL is.  

Though I'd think you'd get more science from taking experiments up with you and doing them each time you cross a Kerbin biome. 

Edited February 20, 2016 by Foxster

[bewing]

9 minutes ago, monophonic said:

A bottom-pod design might work. But I did something completely different: I brought the data with a lightweight mission from Minmus. If course a MPL there would give more science, but I didn't feel like building that big a transfer stage at the time.

Thinking about this .... yeah, I suppose if you build your rocket out flat, with rings of detachable boosters and liquid engines around the MPL in the center ... hmmmm ... it seems a bit horrifying, but in a different way than my gantry thingie.

 

[Scotius]

I rarely bother with hauling data from Kerbin to the orbit. Usually i just send a mission to the Mun or Minmus, gather all data available from experiments and return to Kerbin. Then i just dock to my station and unload the data by short EVA of one of crewmembers Even then it's mostly a stopgap solution until i have tech and funds to build stations in both moons orbits. With right strategy and management my scientists have plenty of work until i can get stations to Duna and Eve...and so on.

[bewing]

27 minutes ago, Foxster said:

Something like this will do it...

<image>

First stage will get you to orbit with lots of dV to spare. The payload craft has 2500dV+ for rendezvous+docking just about wherever your MPL is.  

I see. I had forgotten about those kinds of designs. Hmmmmm.

-- Can that command pod really maintain a prograde attitude during reentry so that the heat shield actually accomplishes something??

 

Quote

Though I'd think you'd get more science from taking experiments up with you and doing them each time you cross a Kerbin biome. 

No, not even close. Kerbin contains over 1600 points of science data on the ground, as I recall. You can only get a small fraction of that in low and high orbit. It's best to do both, if it's at all convenient.

Edited February 20, 2016 by bewing

[Foxster]

...or put the MPL plus some experiments up there like this...

[bewing]

Heh. That one is indeed cute.

And since I send my MPLs into polar orbits, they are not fun to dock with later. So a design where the data goes into the MPL before launch is best, truly.

 

[FullMetalMachinist]

4 hours ago, bewing said:

And since I send my MPLs into polar orbits, they are not fun to dock with later.

In the name of the Kraken, WHY?  Unless you have some specific reason for doing that, it seems like a very bad idea.  You want your stations easily accessible, for the very reason that you're having trouble with, i.e. you need to interact with them once they're up there. The MPL itself gains no benefit from being in a polar orbit, so might as well make it prograde equatorial and save yourself a lot of trouble.

Edit: I agree with Scotius up there, I don't bother taking Kerbin science up to orbit in the first place. The science from a Mun/Minmus flyby (not even landing or orbiting) is worth more than anything on Kerbin, and it's easy to dock with an MPL already in Kerbin orbit on your way home (provided you haven't done something silly like put it in a polar orbit ).

Edited February 20, 2016 by FullMetalMachinist

[Kertech]

I get the science with planes, land them and transfer all the reports to a river, drive that to my rocket which has the lab and a capsule (etc) then launch the thing with all the science already

[bewing]

13 minutes ago, Kertech said:

I get the science with planes, land them and transfer all the reports to a river, drive that to my rocket which has the lab and a capsule (etc) then launch the thing with all the science already

Yes, but how do you get the science from the rover into the rocket? That's the detail I'm asking about.

22 minutes ago, FullMetalMachinist said:

In the name of the Kraken, WHY? 

Polar orbit gives you access to all the biomes on the celestial body, for taking orbital data. It also gives you 100% continuous solar power for a quarter of a year at a time. And I disagree -- I leave MPLs sitting in orbit for months and don't interact with them at all. The scientists just crunch their data and radio it home.

22 minutes ago, FullMetalMachinist said:

Edit: The science from a Mun/Minmus flyby (not even landing or orbiting) is worth more than anything on Kerbin

I think if you carefully recalculate, you will find that this isn't correct. Kerbin gives you more than 470 unique scientific experimental results. No other celestial body comes close to that number. They aren't worth as much, individually, but they add up.

6 hours ago, CAKE99 said:

I'd like a picture!

OK, here's my silly gantry.

And here it is performing its function. Bob is at the top, preparing to board the MPL.

[Rocket In My Pocket]

There is something so ridiculously... Kerbal about your jet engine powered ladder car, I mean seriously...it pretty much sums up KSP engineering in one picture.

It reminds me of all the times I just designed something haphazardly to do one specific task, piling on more and more boosters, or ladders, or struts, or whatever it was I thought it didn't have enough of to do the job.

Then, months later as your scrolling through your ship list you stumble across it again and just shake your head in bemused appreciation, unsure what in the world you were thinking when you built it.

[bewing]

Yes, well. If you only have a limited number of blocks of a limited number of shapes, then sometimes you have to start getting wacky about putting them together if you want to do something unusual.

 

[KerikBalm]

I've never even considered doing this... I just get data with the same craft.

Science from launchpad... Science from flying, science from high altitude (during the coast to apoapsis), science from space, eva reports above various biomes, etc.

TBH, I don't bother with the MPLs in LKO, I have one, but its just sitting there with no kerbals... the only MPLs I have running at the moment are one the surface of duna and orbit of moho

[FullMetalMachinist]

Okay, first off, I'm not trying to say that anything you're doing is wrong, or that you should be playing differently.  You play the way that you want, whatever makes you happy. However, I do think that you're making things harder on yourself than necessary.  Here's why (caution, small wall of text coming).  

 

43 minutes ago, bewing said:

Poar orbit gives you access to all the biomes on the celestial body, for taking orbital data.

Yes this is true, but each science result can only be processed once into the MPL, so after the first few orbits you've stripped all the experiments that you can (and there aren't many that are biome-specific to begin with, most just have "low in space over __ " or "high in space over __ "). After that you only have this reason for being polar:

43 minutes ago, bewing said:

It also gives you 100% continuous solar power for a quarter of a year at a time.

Again, true, but unnecessary IMHO.  Just put enough batteries on it to help it last though the dark side. It doesn't even take electric charge into account while in time warp anyway. It just looks if there is enough charge when time warp starts but doesn't actually drain any while in time warp. 

43 minutes ago, bewing said:

And I disagree -- I leave MPLs sitting in orbit for months and don't interact with them at all. The scientists just crunch their data and radio it home.

Yes, but that's months of game time. My main concern is real world time, and rendezvous and docking with objects in polar orbits are huge time consumers.  And if you ever dock with your MPL more than once after you've gotten all your orbital biome-specific science, then it's not worth it. Better to send just a simple craft laden with instruments on a polar orbit with enough dV to change planes and dock with the MPL.

43 minutes ago, bewing said:

Kerbin gives you more than 470 unique scientific experimental results. No other celestial body comes close to that number. They aren't worth as much, individually, but they add up.

Again, also very true. However, like I said, my main concern is real world play time, and grabbing every single one of those 470(!) science results from Kerbin is extremely tedious (four hundred and seventy?! Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!).  In terms of mission simplicity and short real world play time, it's faster and easier to launch an MPL into prograde equatorial orbit, then fly a flyby mission to Mun/Minmus getting all the science you can on the way, then dock with the MPL.  If you look at it as science point per hour of play time, this way is much better, IMO.

Now, having said all that, you play the way that makes you happy. I just feel that all that science grinding is time consuming and tedious.  But if you have fun doing it your way, that's what really matters.  I'm just giving you my opinion on how you could make things a little easier on yourself.

Edited February 20, 2016 by FullMetalMachinist
Remember kids, proofread before you post, then you won't have to make edits.

[bewing]

Time warping to avoid electrical drain is cheating.

And when you send an MPL to a new SOI, its plane gets all messed up anyway. So I dock with them after they have moved. And I have lots of time to spare and don't care about the difference between "real world time" and game time. I don't find polar orbits particularly difficult to dock with, either. You just have to wait until the timing is right.

And it only takes a handful of hours to gather all 470+ samples from Kerbin. It's not that bad. It certainly takes less time than doing 10 docking maneuvers in a row. Or trying to drive a rover a few kilometers on the Mun -- now that's tedious.

 

[FullMetalMachinist]

@bewing Shhhh....you're not supposed to use the ch-word around here, some people take offense .  

And for clarity, I'm not suggesting docking with the MPL 10 times, nor roving around the Mun trying to gather every little bit of science.  That's why I use the MPL in the first place. I find that spending lots of time trying to gather every experiment from every biome while in every situation very tiring.  So for the early game here's what I do. Get far enough along the tech tree to unlock the MPL, them immediately put it in orbit. Right after that I send a ship that has every science instrument I have access to, with a kerbal scientist. I fly that ship on flyby trajectories to Mun and Minmus in one go, gathering all the "in space high and low" science I can, then return to Kerbin orbit, dock with MPL, process the results, get the MPL researching, and then return those same science results when I land the flyby ship.  That gets you a pretty good boost in science points at that point in the game, and fills up the MPL with data to research. After that I usually send out an interplanetary probe, and then go for a manned Mun landing.  I could do all of that in the same or less time than it would take to run around Kerbin and scrounge up all available science, and I think it's more fun flying around in space than flying a plane or doing sub-orbital hops around Kerbin.  

But, to each his own, play the game in whatever way is fun for you, and I'll do the same  

[Nich]

 Yes my tree is usually unlocked before my MPL's make 500 science I really think it's one of the most worthless parts in the game 

[Evanitis]

21 hours ago, loch.ness said:

The trick is the radially attach a hitchiker can to the launch clamps of your rocket then use the crew-transfer function.  Would work with a pod too.

I think the op overlooked the simplest posted solution to the problem. But the ladder-car is more fun anyways.

54 minutes ago, Nich said:

 Yes my tree is usually unlocked before my MPL's make 500 science I really think it's one of the most worthless parts in the game 

Strange, I had the exact opposite impression. Whenever I launched an MPL-based mission, it was enough to unlock the rest of the tree, even on 50% science gain (maybe it isn't affected by that setting?). Though I never used it on Kerbin orbit - it gets a boost if it's far from home (even more if landed somewhere), so I always sent it to another planet on the first available launch window as soon as I built it.

These days I just never use it. I do career to be forced to use the low-tech parts. Efficient use of MPL ruins that very soon, even if I don't timewarp and do other stuff while it travels. Though I might try limiting it's use to LKO - this thread suggests that it might be the solution to -my- problem with the lab.

[bewing]

2 hours ago, Evanitis said:

I think the op overlooked the simplest posted solution to the problem. But the ladder-car is more fun anyways.

Yes, the ladder car is fun, and silly, and cheap. I switched out all the pegasus ladders for telus ones and knocked 1000 kash off the price. Foxster's solution is more elegant, I think, but uses some tech I don't have yet in this career (and is a bit more expensive).

But, as I said above, the science data will not transfer with the crew if you use a crew transfer -- so that "simplest solution" is non-functional.

 

[Laie]

21 hours ago, bewing said:

I think if you carefully recalculate, you will find that this isn't correct. Kerbin gives you more than 470 unique scientific experimental results. No other celestial body comes close to that number. They aren't worth as much, individually, but they add up.

The phrase "penny-wise and pound-foolish" comes to mind. Collecting 470 results is a bit of work, some of those are pretty hard to get ("splashed down in the badlands" anyone?). That's fine if you're a completionist... but if you just want to rake in the easy science, go for a Munar flyby instead.

IIRC data from in space low/high around the Mun will yield enough science to stuff your lab once, and that's without the gravimeter.

[Nich]

 First window to Duna  is 231 days in that timeframe I can easily have stripped all the Mun and minimus biomes . In fact I generally have more than enough science to go to Duna before day 30 or 40.   Maybe if you're playing with  KCT  or 10% science returns then the lab might make sense