[1.11.x] Endurance (from Interstellar) Continued... (V1.13) 20th Feb 2021

[JadeOfMaar]

On 9/24/2020 at 2:23 PM, Selphadur said:

The only problem I encounter is VTOL engine eats all electricity in seconds with even Tokamak and Fuel Cell active (using Ranger now).

I'll need to see your KSP.log and your Logs/ModuleManager/

I don't know what mod combination is still causing that, or what I'm still missing that causes that.

Edited September 28, 2020 by JadeOfMaar

[Selphadur]

Here you go:

KSP Log
https://file.io/JYwdlFUmKjP2

MMPatch

https://file.io/kHkPUNV13Fmj

ModuleManager Log

https://file.io/DIEA7LML3HrA

Alternatively all zipped:
https://filebin.net/nzmd2iu9xneb41ff

 

These are on the KSP install I had problems. I have new install now with different mods playing career and did not reach Endurance stuff yet so can't confirm if this problem persists with different install.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Selphadur

[JadeOfMaar]

@Selphadur I should have asked you for your MM ConfigCache as well. I'm not home and cannot test right now but you have WBI in Classic Stock mode so the engines should be demanding Propellium. But you have Kerbalism installed so you really shouldn't be using Classic Stock mode. At the space center scene, click the "WBT" button in the toolbar and you should get the Play Mode selection window. Choose CRP, click OK and restart KSP.

If there is still a problem after doing this, let me know. I'll get back to you soon.

[Selphadur]

3 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

@Selphadur I should have asked you for your MM ConfigCache as well. I'm not home and cannot test right now but you have WBI in Classic Stock mode so the engines should be demanding Propellium. But you have Kerbalism installed so you really shouldn't be using Classic Stock mode. At the space center scene, click the "WBT" button in the toolbar and you should get the Play Mode selection window. Choose CRP, click OK and restart KSP.

If there is still a problem after doing this, let me know. I'll get back to you soon.

They do use propellium, it's just they also use EC. Well at least VTOL (probably use only EC, did not notice about propellium). Other engines use whatever I give them (Propellium or L/OX). I will check out later switching to CRP on my older install and check if VTOL still drains a lot of EC. Also will add config cache. 
Edit:
There is also a problem where it can flame out due to lack of atmosphere when just trying to lift off from pad with VTOL. There is that sweet spot you can catch when EC is not drained yet but VTOL flames out due to "insufficient atmosphere", but rarely. Usually EC is drained. I don't know any use in these case for this engine. I will also test new install with different mods in creative to see if there are same problems. I will inform of the results later.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Selphadur

[JadeOfMaar]

@Selphadur All of Endurance's engines consume [LiquidFuel, LqdHydrogen or Propellium (one of these)] + ElectricCharge. I recommend clipping mods out of your install to troubleshoot, starting with AJE and SolverEngines which make huge changes to the way engines work. The Ranger's built-in VTOL engine is supposed to flameout at some altitude anyway, simply because air pressure is too low (you've gone high enough) or you're moving fast enough with a given orientation that doesn't help the intake (whichever way that is pointing) to remain parallel with, and make use of the airflow to feed the engine.

[Selphadur]

8 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

The Ranger's built-in VTOL engine is supposed to flameout at some altitude anyway

I understand that. But it flames out even without taking off. And like I said not always, most of the time EC is drained.

And regarding AJE and SolverEngines, I don't use them I think 

As I said I will test again with old and new installs and give you MM ConfigCache and all logs of new install. Did not get moment to do so yet 

 

[Selphadur]

Here is ConfigCache for that install I provided logs:
https://easyupload.io/9r9wez

Strangely I have tested now on completely different install on creative mode with CRP mode active and on that new install reactor won't even start as it is asking for FussionPellets, which there is not even a menu to put in.

Also VTOL engine won't even start or use EC and instead would just FlameOut with intakes open 
Will test with ClassicStock and provide logs with cache in next post. 

Here is the pic:

https://ibb.co/1qsnwrM

EDIT:
So tried Classic Stock WBI mode and it's same problem, but here I can choose between Propellium and L/Ox, where using CRP would give choice between Hydrolox and Lox.
And reactor still won't work as it asks for FusionPellets and there is nowhere to put those, there is no button, no menu - nothing.

So it seems that using completely different install with different mods is even worse than when I used old install  because I can't use Reactor 
Here is SC with Classic Stock, same result (although I activated fuel cell this time so VTOL tried to use EC, but still flamed out with 15m/s effective air speed): 
https://ibb.co/jVtNWVD

Here are logs and cache zipped:
https://easyupload.io/iqhkxd

Note that these are for completely different install.

Any ideas would be great. Thanks!

Edited September 30, 2020 by Selphadur

[JadeOfMaar]

@Selphadur Sadly, I needed to see in-game that the 4000 Atmosphere per second thing was happening to realize what's up:

1. Regarding 6-digit EC consumption: This is caused by the single or largest point of incompatibility between WBI Classic Stock and Kerbalism. Both of these have conflicting definitions for the Atmosphere resource, and KSP is recognizing Kerbalism's own which has an extremely low density.
   • ElectricCharge, being mass-less, is treated for consumption in an engine by being a multiple of the units per second of resources that have mass, and when a resource has lower density, more units per second are consumed to make up the mass consumed per second, which in turn, means much more ElectricCharge per second is demanded and leads to the 6-figures and Electric flameout.
   • Kerbalism's Atmosphere resource, being super low density, is required at over 4000 units per second by the Ranger's air-breathing engine. This enormous demand is, in turn, why you get Atmosphere flameout. No intake can satisfy that demand.
2. Regarding Atmosphere flameout: It would seem that Kerbalism's life support feature switch purges crewed parts of resources that are provided by the stock RESOURCE{} nodes. In addition to the huge intake demand, the Ranger doesn't even have the tank for the resource. This purging of resources is also why the Ranger, Lander and Viper are not holding FusionPellets or ElectroPlasma.

To fix #1, change WBI to CRP mode again. This will change Endurance back to requiring IntakeAtm which has the same density as LiquidFuel (and LqdHydrogen, not Propellium for its other engines and RCS). If you have a reason for preferring Classic Stock and using it alongside Kerbalism (which I don't intend to support) I'd like to know.

To fix #2, save this as a new .cfg file within GameData:

// Evidently, crewed parts get all resources other than ElectricCharge removed from them by the Kerbalism life support module switcher. This applies to anything provided by RESOURCE{}.
// Add these back in a later MM pass.

// Ranger
@PART[ENrangerBody]:NEEDS[Kerbalism]:LAST[Endurance]
{
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = FusionPellets
		amount = 50
		maxAmount = 50
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = ElectroPlasma
		amount = 0
		maxAmount = 1000
		isTweakable = false
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = IntakeAir
		amount = 5
		maxAmount = 5
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = IntakeAtm
		amount = 5
		maxAmount = 5
	}
}
// Lander
@PART[ENlanderBody]:NEEDS[Kerbalism]:LAST[Endurance]
{
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = FusionPellets
		amount = 100
		maxAmount = 100
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = ElectroPlasma
		amount = 0
		maxAmount = 3000
		isTweakable = false
	}
}
// Mini-Ranger / Viper
@PART[ENminiRanger]:NEEDS[Kerbalism]:LAST[Endurance]
{
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = FusionPellets
		amount = 20
		maxAmount = 20
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = ElectroPlasma
		amount = 0
		maxAmount = 500
		isTweakable = false
	}
}

Spoiler

If you insist on mixing Classic Stock and Kerbalism then also save this fix for just the Ranger's VTOL engine. It's not tested but should work just fine:

// Ranger
@PART[ENrangerBody]:NEEDS[Kerbalism,ClassicStock]:AFTER[Endurance]
{
	@MODULE[ModuleEnginesFX]
	{
		!PROPELLANT,* {}
		PROPELLANT
		{
			name = IntakeAtm
			ratio = 1
		}
		PROPELLANT
		{
			name = ElectricCharge
			ratio = 98.039
			DrawGauge = True
		}
	}
}

 

 

Edited October 1, 2020 by JadeOfMaar

[Selphadur]

5 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

@Selphadur Sadly, I needed to see in-game that the 4000 Atmosphere per second thing was happening to realize what's up:

1. Regarding 6-digit EC consumption: This is caused by the single or largest point of incompatibility between WBI Classic Stock and Kerbalism. Both of these have conflicting definitions for the Atmosphere resource, and KSP is recognizing Kerbalism's own which has an extremely low density.
   • ElectricCharge, being mass-less, is treated for consumption in an engine by being a multiple of the units per second of resources that have mass, and when a resource has lower density, more units per second are consumed to make up the mass consumed per second, which in turn, means much more ElectricCharge per second is demanded and leads to the 6-figures and Electric flameout.
   • Kerbalism's Atmosphere resource, being super low density, is required at over 4000 units per second by the Ranger's air-breathing engine. This enormous demand is, in turn, why you get Atmosphere flameout. No intake can satisfy that demand.
2. Regarding Atmosphere flameout: It would seem that Kerbalism's life support feature switch purges crewed parts of resources that are provided by the stock RESOURCE{} nodes. In addition to the huge intake demand, the Ranger doesn't even have the tank for the resource. This purging of resources is also why the Ranger, Lander and Viper are not holding FusionPellets or ElectroPlasma.

To fix #1, change WBI to CRP mode again. This will change Endurance back to requiring IntakeAtm which has the same density as LiquidFuel (and LqdHydrogen, not Propellium for its other engines and RCS). If you have a reason for preferring Classic Stock and using it alongside Kerbalism (which I don't intend to support) I'd like to know.

To fix #2, save this as a new .cfg file within GameData:

// Evidently, crewed parts get all resources other than ElectricCharge removed from them by the Kerbalism life support module switcher. This applies to anything provided by RESOURCE{}.
// Add these back in a later MM pass.

// Ranger
@PART[ENrangerBody]:NEEDS[Kerbalism]:LAST[Endurance]
{
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = FusionPellets
		amount = 50
		maxAmount = 50
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = ElectroPlasma
		amount = 0
		maxAmount = 1000
		isTweakable = false
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = IntakeAir
		amount = 5
		maxAmount = 5
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = IntakeAtm
		amount = 5
		maxAmount = 5
	}
}
// Lander
@PART[ENlanderBody]:NEEDS[Kerbalism]:LAST[Endurance]
{
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = FusionPellets
		amount = 100
		maxAmount = 100
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = ElectroPlasma
		amount = 0
		maxAmount = 3000
		isTweakable = false
	}
}
// Mini-Ranger / Viper
@PART[ENminiRanger]:NEEDS[Kerbalism]:LAST[Endurance]
{
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = FusionPellets
		amount = 20
		maxAmount = 20
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = ElectroPlasma
		amount = 0
		maxAmount = 500
		isTweakable = false
	}
}

  Reveal hidden contents

If you insist on mixing Classic Stock and Kerbalism then also save this fix for just the Ranger's VTOL engine. It's not tested but should work just fine:

// Ranger
@PART[ENrangerBody]:NEEDS[Kerbalism,ClassicStock]:AFTER[Endurance]
{
	@MODULE[ModuleEnginesFX]
	{
		!PROPELLANT,* {}
		PROPELLANT
		{
			name = IntakeAtm
			ratio = 1
		}
		PROPELLANT
		{
			name = ElectricCharge
			ratio = 98.039
			DrawGauge = True
		}
	}
}

 

 

1. If I just track down which mods use WBI Stock (and install WBI Stock) and delete those mods with WBI stock would it fix problems/contradictions with Kerbalism?

2. I do not remember it asking FussionPellets in older intstall (but I can be wrong), I'll take your word for that. But strangely in that install I think there was an option to add Reactor fuel. Do you know why there is none in new install (it wasn't purging those content then)? 

3. Well the main reason I want to use classic stock is probably because it uses Propellium instead of LqdHydrogen. There was probably another reason why I used it in older install (better fuels for other mods I guess). Also what do you mean switching to CRP will make Endurance use/require IntakeAtm. Was it not using it before? Also I did not see any container that could hold IntakeAtm while using CRP. Or I understand something incorrectly?

The strangest thing is that with older mod Reactor worked fine, everything was fine and normal except VTOL, with new install it became all messed up. I believe the culprit is not only Kerbalism.

 

I will save that cfg and also look into which mods may be causing this. Maybe will delete WBI and mods tied to it. Do some tests and report back. 

Thanks!!

[JadeOfMaar]

@Selphadur :

1. WBI's Atmosphere resource is used by any part such as "gas turbine generators" which generate Compressed Atmosphere for WBI's air-breathing RCS. Airships/Heisenberg and Buffalo are the mods I can call with certainty. For clarification: The problem remains that while Endurance works well with Kerbalism, Ranger's trying to use Kerbalism's own resource for a reason unfitting for that resource's purpose. WBI is actually not contributing to any problems and doesn't need to be pruned. Things will only get messy if you plan to use WBI's blimp parts or air-breathing RCS.
    
2. I wouldn't know the slightest about this menu for adding reactor fuel. But if it still exists, I have a good guess that it doesn't appear for crewed parts. Or maybe it's that Endurance's parts that have a fusion reactor are using WBI DSEV's unique reactor module which won't be supported by any other mods.
    
3. I guess you would have been pulled in by Propellium having a higher density than LH2, making it less difficult to build ships fueled by it, and notably more mass-efficient while still getting equivalent Isp buffs of LH2 (the reasons for this are complicated). The IntakeAtm (CRP) and Atmosphere (WBI) resources are treated the same way: mainly for consumption by RCS and engines. Atmosphere (Kerbalism) is treated entirely differently. Endurance originally had no support for these and would use stock IntakeAir which is defined as breathable and is only available on worlds that have Oxygen enabled. You don't get tanks for these except for the tiny amount in parts that have the intake module. The Ranger has its own built-in intake and so needs to have that tiny tank for IntakeAir/IntakeAtm/Atmosphere.

 

Edited October 2, 2020 by JadeOfMaar

[Selphadur]

6 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

@Selphadur :

1. WBI's Atmosphere resource is used by any part such as "gas turbine generators" which generate Compressed Atmosphere for WBI's air-breathing RCS. Airships/Heisenberg and Buffalo are the mods I can call with certainty. For clarification: The problem remains that while Endurance works well with Kerbalism, Ranger's trying to use Kerbalism's own resource for a reason unfitting for that resource's purpose. WBI is actually not contributing to any problems and doesn't need to be pruned. Things will only get messy if you plan to use WBI's blimp parts or air-breathing RCS.
    
2. I wouldn't know the slightest about this menu for adding reactor fuel. But if it still exists, I have a good guess that it doesn't appear for crewed parts. Or maybe it's that Endurance's parts that have a fusion reactor are using WBI DSEV's unique reactor module which won't be supported by any other mods.
    
3. I guess you would have been pulled in by Propellium having a higher density than LH2, making it less difficult to build ships fueled by it, and notably more mass-efficient while still getting equivalent Isp buffs of LH2 (the reasons for this are complicated). The IntakeAtm (CRP) and Atmosphere (WBI) resources are treated the same way: mainly for consumption by RCS and engines. Atmosphere (Kerbalism) is treated entirely differently. Endurance originally had no support for these and would use stock IntakeAir which is defined as breathable and is only available on worlds that have Oxygen enabled. You don't get tanks for these except for the tiny amount in parts that have the intake module. The Ranger has its own built-in intake and so needs to have that tiny tank for IntakeAir/IntakeAtm/Atmosphere.

 

1. I think I have Buffalo installed also in new install and also if I remember correcly some sort of turbine generator. So basically VTOL problem comes from Kerbalism itself.

2. I don't remember if there was menu for sure, but reactor worked with same Kerbalism version on old install, although there were same problems with VTOL. I do have DSEV installed. You think that one is messing around with reactor a bit? 

3. I think the main reason was that I played on old install with other mods and Classic Stock mode was somewhat easier for with resources and etc. Also Propellium kinda sounded more futuristic  I remember when there were tanks for IntakeAtm, I thought it was a bug back then and did not paid much attention to it 

EDIT:

I just tried your cfg patch (CRP one, with CRP active) and it did not fix that for some reason. Still no FusionPellets and no ElectroPlasma, IntakeAir and etc  I have no idea why it's not working. I put it into game data, here is a pic:

EDIT2:
Tested with ClassicStock mode with you proviced cfg. Same problems. What I noticed is that in old install there was a button in VAB to start Reactor (like you can start Crew Report and etc beforehand), now this button is gone (and it was gone prior to cfgs you provided). 

I guess it's time to say goodbye to Kerbalism and find alternative mods to replace at least some of the features 

EDIT3:
Guess what. I removed Kerbalism and there are still same problems  No Start Reactor in VAB button (to start reactor right away on launch pad), Reactor still says Missing FusionPellets, VTOL flames out due to insuficient IntakeAtm, EC usage of VTOL is I think same (if I find sweet spot like 5% or something like that on throttle it drains EC very fast). 
So the good news is it is not Kerbalism, bad news are we have no idea which mod is causing this (well at least I have no idea). I tried both CRP and Classic Stock, but without your provided cfgs (as I understand those are for Kerbalism).
In a couple of days I will start checking out which mod(s) may be causing this by disabling more suspicious ones (although most of them on this install just add parts and etc and like 90% of those are updated for 1.10.1, and others are mostly minor mods, like Chaterrer and etc and should not interfere even though they may be for 1.9 or something like that).

Edited October 2, 2020 by Selphadur

[jimmymcgoochie]

I'm having some issues with this mod related to the fusion pellets needed for the nuclear reactors: as soon as I add B9 part switch, the fusion pellets storage disappears from the Ranger, Lander and Viper and there's no option to add them back. The pellets are still present in the Endurance's propulsion modules.

The pellets are present in all of them when B9 Part Switch is not installed.

Here are the logs: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/iqq2c9o5b28s4xz/AADqVmg8zCSO5GUfHrlw3_o_a?dl=0

 

Has anyone ever seen this before, and does anyone know how to fix it?

[UZZO007]

Hi everyone, I would like to ask if anyone has managed to build the missile that, in the film, launched the two main ships (ranger) to endurance, because I cannot find a suitable decoupler for the two ships. I hope I have explained and find some answers, thanks

[JadeOfMaar]

@jimmymcgoochie Sorry, dude. I haven't gotten around to really looking at your issue yet. But let me tell you that's incredibly strange behavior. B9PS itself absolutely should not be doing that, and your mod list is incredibly short so I'm quite confused. And if that happened to me while I was building up all these new features for Endurance, I would have squashed it or made a way around it.

[jimmymcgoochie]

1 hour ago, JadeOfMaar said:

@jimmymcgoochie Sorry, dude. I haven't gotten around to really looking at your issue yet. But let me tell you that's incredibly strange behavior. B9PS itself absolutely should not be doing that, and your mod list is incredibly short so I'm quite confused. And if that happened to me while I was building up all these new features for Endurance, I would have squashed it or made a way around it.

I've been doing some digging of my own and it looks like this is restricted to 1.10; an identical setup in 1.9.1 (same mod versions too) and it works fine. 

Logs: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jtxkcf8054s2rfr/AADS-QJw1oTGbNZeSiI7uxOAa?dl=0

Edited October 19, 2020 by jimmymcgoochie

[JadeOfMaar]

@jimmymcgoochie It's possible that B9PS may be malfunctioning on KSP 1.10 in particular. Related: I have an issue in 1.10 where the input resource switching on some (OPT) power sources visibly works but don't actually work. They keep demanding LFO.

[JadeOfMaar]

On 10/19/2020 at 9:52 AM, UZZO007 said:

Hi everyone, I would like to ask if anyone has managed to build the missile that, in the film, launched the two main ships (ranger) to endurance, because I cannot find a suitable decoupler for the two ships. I hope I have explained and find some answers, thanks

You're better off using the Rangers to launch themselves (they have the Isp for it. The launcher was completely unnecessary in the movie, and probably just to be inconspicious to civilians who saw the launch. After all, Endurance's existence was a secret at the time) and have the launcher be a drop tank with OMS and avionics so it can deorbit itself. Nobody has made a cradle for the Rangers and it wouldn't work well in stock aero because the Rangers would be slanted while seated in it, and you know then they'll produce a lot of aero deflection which will demand that you put lots of wings on the launcher.

[timbrwolf1121]

@JadeOfMaar I am having an EC issue as well. Mine has two listings for the resource converter and and the RCS gets double charged for EC. One being like 70/s (which is reasonable) and one being 500/s. I'm not sure if mine is related to the previous EC issue though. 
Edit: I am talking about the ranger at the moment.

Edited November 24, 2020 by timbrwolf1121
Clarification

[JadeOfMaar]

@timbrwolf1121 I'll need to see your KSP.log (your mod list inside of this). I suspect you have the Kiwi Tech Tree which appears to add a fuel switch to all RCS thrusters, and which is making a mess with Endurance's RCS patches. But if this is happening with just the Ranger, I'm clueless.

The Kerbalism EC problem above is easily solved by not using WBI Classic Stock with Kerbalism. (In short/tl;dr: These two systems define an Atmosphere resource, but Kerbalism's own is really low density, so many more units per second are used to make up the used mass per second, and EC per second is just a multiple of the units per second of the resource that has mass.) These two are not meant to mix, though I can patch around that.

[Selphadur]

3 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

@timbrwolf1121 I'll need to see your KSP.log (your mod list inside of this). I suspect you have the Kiwi Tech Tree which appears to add a fuel switch to all RCS thrusters, and which is making a mess with Endurance's RCS patches. But if this is happening with just the Ranger, I'm clueless.

The Kerbalism EC problem above is easily solved by not using WBI Classic Stock with Kerbalism. (In short/tl;dr: These two systems define an Atmosphere resource, but Kerbalism's own is really low density, so many more units per second are used to make up the used mass per second, and EC per second is just a multiple of the units per second of the resource that has mass.) These two are not meant to mix, though I can patch around that.

As I mentioned before I tested without Kerbalism and this problem persists (also WBI Classic or CRP does not matter, it just changes propellant, but problems remain). This problem (with EC and reactors) may be coming from DSEV or some other mod. 

[timbrwolf1121]

I checked, and I don't even have kerbalism. I only have interstellar fuel switch for fuel switching I believe. Unless DSEV has a fuel switcher too

[JadeOfMaar]

@timbrwolf1121 WBI on the whole has 3 fuel switchers: ConvertibleStorage, MultipurposeStorage and OmniStorage. If any fuel switch mods are injecting their modules into WBI parts, those mods need to go.

[timbrwolf1121]

I'll still have my LH2 resources right?

[JadeOfMaar]

@timbrwolf1121 You should. If you have the right mods installed to enable them (and preferably not the WBI mods in Classic Stock mode).

[timbrwolf1121]

I'm gonna deleting IFS in a few hours then, I'll let you know if it works. Building the endurance though even with the huge parts I still end up with a large part count and can't customize it with other stuff or I brick my frames. Would it be possible to get the docking ports built into the central hub as well? My part count was still pretty high when I got it mostly assembled.