Data Storage Limits - what are they / where can I find them?

[jpcerutti]

Data limits. Ugh.

Know there's a limit on both command modules and science module (not talking about multiple same biosphere/same report but raw data limits). What are they? Is there a table or chart somewhere if command modules vary? Is there any way to increase data storage besides stacking multiple science or command modules?

Seems a shame I can't get it all in one trip - like having to make multiple trips to the store because they won't give me a bigger bag to put things in.

[Francois424]

I second this question.
The limit number SHOULD appear in the specs of the modules.  I ran into this returning from the Mün one time and was pretty liquided I needed to send ANOTHER rescue ship to get all the data home.

As to answer your question JP, I haven't tried, ut you could try editing the .cfg file of the pod in question and look it up.  For all we know it should be in there.
 

[Snark]

Welcome to the forums!

The reason you can't find any documentation on the limit is that there isn't one. 

The science lab can hold an infinite number of science results.

Command modules are limited to one result per-experment-per-body-per-biome-per-situation, but there's no limit to how many different ones they can hold.

Just be sure you don't confuse science results (the things you get from science instruments, which a lab can hold an infinite number of) with science data (the stuff you get when you click the yellow "research" button, of which a lab can hold up to 500 points' worth).

 

Edited March 8, 2016 by Snark

[pincushionman]

Ah, but you need to do the EVA-take-data-put-data trick to actually run an experiment for different biome/situation. Which is also not exactly obvious.

[Francois424]

Well it gave me a problem when I went to transfer around 200 experiments (all different, as they all where stored in the MPL) and I tried to cram all of them into (I think) a mk1_2 capsule.
It's been a while but I thought the OP was talking about the same thing.  To note this has not happened since either.

Never mind my intervention then, haha.

[jpcerutti]

Got it (I think). Data limit is the science module but the control module(s) will store unlimited data - just not dupes. Thought both were full from the message and never checked collected versus return after mission.

Grazi!

[Crzyrndm]

1 hour ago, Francois424 said:

Well it gave me a problem when I went to transfer around 200 experiments (all different, as they all where stored in the MPL) and I tried to cram all of them into (I think) a mk1_2 capsule.

Labs can store duplicate results so you will find differences when trying to cram them into a CM

[Francois424]

18 minutes ago, Crzyrndm said:

Labs can store duplicate results so you will find differences when trying to cram them into a CM

So that's what it was?  I had so much stuff crammed in there I probably never noticed, lol.
Thanks for the Info

[Brainlord Mesomorph]

Ok I get the diff between results and DATA.

But I have labs that filling up w/ data, how do get THAT out?

[jpcerutti]

The only way I have ever gotten it is to land it and recover it... one small grocery bag a trip.

[Geschosskopf]

8 hours ago, Brainlord Mesomorph said:

Ok I get the diff between results and DATA.

But I have labs that filling up w/ data, how do get THAT out?

When you put a result in a lab, the lab makes a pseudo-copy of it that is called "data", which fills up some (usually most) of it's data space.  You can then take the result out of the lab and return or transmit it for whatever science points it's worth.  However, the "data" pseudo-copy remains in the lab.  Provided you have at least 1 scientist in the lab, over (a very long) time, the lab will slowly convert the "data" pseudo-copy into science points.  The amount of data in the lab decreases and you accrue the science points.  The rate at which this happens depends on whether the lab has 1 or 2 scientists, the experience level(s) of the scientist(s), and how much data is left in the lab (science production rate falls off exponentially).  The net result is that you can use the lab to (eventually) get several times the science point value of the original result, 1 time for the result itself which you transmitted or returned after putting in the lab, and then a few more times for the science the lab creates from the "data" pseudo-copy.

This all sounds very attractive but it's actually useless in practice, for 4 reasons.  First, a single surface sample is all that will fit in the lab at one time, whereas your lander has Goo, Materials, thermometers, barometers, and whatever else you can put on it.  Thus, in just 1 biome, the lander can grab way more science than the lab can handle.  Second, the lab's rate of making science is so slow that you can easily finish the entire tech tree with a few biome-hopping landers MONTHS before the lab pays off.  Third, even if you haven't quite finished the tech tree by then, the remaining nodes will be more expensive than whatever the lab gives you for that Minmus surface sample you stuck in it so many months before.  And finally, and most tellingly, even a 0-star scientist can reload Goo and Materials experiments in the field, and capsules can hold an infinite number of results (although only 1 copy of each).  This makes biome-hopping landers cheap and easy, and WAY, WAY faster than anything the lab can do.

Back when they 1st came out, labs were the only way to reload Goo and Materials, and in fact that was their only real purpose.  So if you wanted to hit multiple biomes, you had to bring a lab with you for that.  And do a complicated mission docking with the lab after each biome (or lugging it with you), needing to refuel the lander, etc.  But then Squad let any noob scientist do that job in an effort to justify the unworkable and unloved Kerbal class system, which made the labs useless.  So to try to give the labs a new purpose, they can now farm science.  But due to the factors above, they can't farm enough science fast enough to compete with biome-hoppers crewed by noob scientists.

Therefore,today, labs have no practical gameplay value, except when needed to fulfill base and station contracts that specify them.  Otherwise, they're only useful for roleplaying, aesthetics, and the Simple Construction mod.

 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2016 by Geschosskopf

[Nightshift83]

That's some nice insight, thanks for the informations provided.. I had just figured how to grab science out of a module, otherwise my Duna mission would have been pretty pointless.. Kerbals do have some pretty abysmal deep pockets:

I still use the lab since for the time of return to Kerbin flight, it's still an additional 500 science points..

[Brainlord Mesomorph]

Hey, Geschosskopf

criticisms of the game model aside. Filling up w/ data is *good* ? My lab won't break when I get to 500?

about the game: IMHO we're due for a science overhaul very soon, I think we need a lot more science gear, (including cameras!) squad needs to hire comedy writers to make that part more fun, and we need to triple the prices in the tech tree.

 

 

[wumpus]

On 3/8/2016 at 11:13 PM, Snark said:

Welcome to the forums!

The reason you can't find any documentation on the limit is that there isn't one. 

The science lab can hold an infinite number of science results.

Command modules are limited to one result per-experment-per-body-per-biome-per-situation, but there's no limit to how many different ones they can hold.

Just be sure you don't confuse science results (the things you get from science instruments, which a lab can hold an infinite number of) with science data (the stuff you get when you click the yellow "research" button, of which a lab can hold up to 500 points' worth).

 

Some notes:

The science lab is supposed to be limited to 500 science results (of lab processing).  I'm guessing there is no limit on the science you are dumping in (although it should have the same limits as a capsule: you can't process the same experiment twice)

The "research" button is limited to 500 points worth: but it only tells you the "data" worth, it doesn't tell you the "size" worth.  If you are in a place with really lousy data (such as on Kerbin) you will fill the thing up with only a little bit of data (something like 50).  Looks like this shouldn't be an issue in most play.

[Geschosskopf]

5 hours ago, Brainlord Mesomorph said:

criticisms of the game model aside. Filling up w/ data is *good* ? My lab won't break when I get to 500?

No, the data capacity of the lab just means you can't make any more pseudo-copies of results.   You can keep packing results into the lab but effectively they just sit on the shelf--the lab can only study up to 500 data at once.  Of course, you can simply return the lab to Kerbin like any capsule and get the science for the results stored inside, but that aborts the farming process of turning the data into extra science (not that this is a great loss)..

Note, however, that when you decide to study/farm a result, its pseudo-copy thus created is a data block of a fixed size based on the science point value of the result.  And the lab won't accept partial data blocks, so often the pseudo-copy of a single result occupies so much of the lab's capacity that you can't farm anything else  A single Minmus surface sample will do this, and no more pseudo-copies can be made until months later, when enough of the initial batch of data has been consumed (and converted into science points) for something else to fit.  This means that it's often impossible to reach the lab's capacity of 500 data. This is bad because the rate of science farming is less slow (it's never fast) the closer the lab is to its data capacity.

Here are some things you can compare RE:  the value of labs.

Pre-1.0: Labs didn't farm and were the only way to reload Goo and Materials

1.0.4:  Comparing farming with the lab to the alternative of biome-hopping with a scientist reloading Goo and Materials.

Quote

about the game: IMHO we're due for a science overhaul very soon, I think we need a lot more science gear, (including cameras!) squad needs to hire comedy writers to make that part more fun, and we need to triple the prices in the tech tree.

If you want to grind the tech tree, you already have the ability.  Just jack up the difficulty sliders when you start a new game.  For example if you want triple-cost on the tech tree?  Give yourself only 33% science rewards. Or you can use one of the many alternative tech tree mods that rearrange where parts are, change their prices, etc.  But do NOT impose that on everybody else.

And if you want more experiments to do, use @DMagic's Orbital Science mod.  SCADs of lovely new experiments to do, PLUS lucrative contracts for doing them.  A wonderful mod, a must-have on my list.

But understand that the more different experiments you can run in a given biome, the more total science points you get from that biome, and by extension from the planet as a whole.  If the total cost of the tech tree doesn't increase, then having more experiments available means you complete the tech tree in fewer missions that stay closer to home.  Which is the exact opposite of the grinding you seem to desire by wanting increased tech tree prices.  IOW, one defeats the purpose of the other.

IMHO there really isn't a major problem with the science system as a whole.  There is only the minor issue of balancing labs with the alternative of not using them.  KSP likes to give players many equally valid paths to the same end result but the labs have never been that way.  In the beginning,they were essential for major missions because they were the only way to reload Goo and Materials.  Now they're pointless because any noob scientist can reload Goo and Materials, and the labs' new farming ability is non-remunerative.

If you take away the scientist's ability to reload Goo and Materials, the scientists once again become useless and the lab essential, so again no choice in the matter.  If you increase the lab's farming rate to compete with a scientist in a biome-hopper, then you could probably complete the tech tree without ever leaving the ground---just put a lab on the launchpad and feed it results from KSC's biomes.  If you make it so scientists need some experience to reload Goo and Materials, then giving them that experience will still be faster and more remunerative than waiting for the lab to farm its data.

This conundrum exists solely as a result of an attempt to make scientists useful in the unionized, craftline-specific Kerbal class system.  Same as the ridiculous "only pilots can find the T key" thing.  The root problem in both cases is the class system in its current  form.  So if anything in the game needs a major overhaul, it's this.  Either it should be scrapped entirely or replaced with something along the lines of most RPGs these days where the players can pick which skills their Kerbals develop, and mix and match skills from the various existing classes.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Geschosskopf

[jonpfl]

On 3/8/2016 at 1:21 AM, pincushionman said:

Ah, but you need to do the EVA-take-data-put-data trick to actually run an experiment for different biome/situation. Which is also not exactly obvious.

Can you expand on this or give me a link explaining what you mean?

Thx
jonpfl

[HvP]

2 hours ago, jonpfl said:

Can you expand on this or give me a link explaining what you mean?

Thx
jonpfl

When you right click on a capsule and do a Crew Report that report is kind of held in limbo and you can't do another crew report with that capsule until you store the report in a science container. The trick is to go on EVA, right click the capsule, remove the data and then either just reenter the pod or choose to "Store Experiments". When you do this it moves the crew report into an imaginary "science container" inside the capsule and you can do another crew report again. An alternative is to have an Experiment Storage Unit on your craft which you can right click to make it store all of the science data from all over the craft, thus moving the report out of the capsule so it is free to do another one.

The reason this happens is that the capsule is both a science generator that can take crew reports AND a science storage unit that can keep experiments from any source once transferred into it. In the same way that you can take a reading on a thermometer, but can't do another one (without erasing the first) until you move the data into storage - you have to move the science data taken with the capsule from the "experiment" side to the "storage" side of the capsule.

The same is true of all science experiments in the stock game, unless you transmit the data. You can EVA and gather the science from your thermometers, barometers, seismometers, etc. and put them in your capsule, but you can only store one copy from each experiment per biome. You'll need a scientist to reset your goo containers or Science Jr. bays if you want to keep using those for further experiments.

Edited May 23, 2017 by HvP