Blue Origin Thread (merged)

[AngelLestat]

They want to do a human-assisted Mars sample return sometime in or after 2024, it would involve sending a crewed Orion and MPLM to Mars orbit in the first SLS Block IB launch and the second would carry an unmanned rover and unmanned protoype MAV to the Martian surface.

They also say that the Orion launch will be using the fifth SLS, so this would be either EM-4, EM-5, or even EM-6 if they launch Europa Clipper on the SLS.

If they actually do this I will be so happy. We'll be in Mars orbit a decade from now...

Source?

Of course they're not. If they were, a structural failure at the attachment point would be catastrophic. They spread the load by having redundant attachment points. And of course, if they were all in a central attachment point, where would you put the docking port?

It's not uncommon for capsules to land upside down. This is due to the parachute reinflating on touchdown. Soyuz lands vertically but is usually tipped over after touchdown. Apollo had two recovery modes: "Stable 1" (floating upright) or "Stable 2" (floating upside down). There were balloons to upright the capsule, but they don't always work. I guess Orion will work in the same way.

Not sure what are you saying about different attachment points, it looks that all are attached to the same common place.

https://youtu.be/bwdNQoAKBs4?t=1m52s

About wind after it lands.. it may be... I will call this "weird", due that it cut parachutes automatically once it lands, the center of gravity is very low too, so it should drag instead turn around.

[MinimumSky5]

Its probably better for the crew to have the parachutes stay attached, as an autocut system would be yet another system to fail, and if that system went off too early, well, it wouldn't end well for the crew. Also, while the capsule does have a low centre of gravity, it also has a large, flat base, which can create a lot of friction.

[fredinno]

I think that the ARM mission should be a "double mission"- use the Block IB SLS EUS (which they're probably going to use anyways to save 150 Million) to first go to TLI, then use the same upper stage to achieve low lunar orbit. Eject the EUS, orbit the Moon for a week or so, then burn the Orion SM to ARM altitude. Study the asteroid for another week, then return home using the Orion SM on another burn.

[Sampa]

You know, i really don't think we need to have ARM be a manned mission! I think a robot probe could do the mission just as well if not safer!

[fredinno]

Source?

Here's the SLS Mars Sample return proposal

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2012/11/nasa-interest-2024-mars-sample-return-sls-orion/

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/11/sls-manifest-europa-mars-sample-return-missions/

I can't find the actual mission timeline, but it would look something like this -http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8ofVekLoEpo/Ux_j3L9Q2aI/AAAAAAAAuKc/D1UULwybmHE/s1600/red-dragon.jpg- except using SLS, and a dedicated sample return mission architecture, instead of FH. It's also, concequently, more ambitious.

I will never understand why they would not use 1 SLS/ Falcon Heavy, and give the sample return capsule extra shielding, rather then send a SLS/Falcon Heavy to retrieve the samples....

[_Augustus_]

Here's the SLS Mars Sample return proposal

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2012/11/nasa-interest-2024-mars-sample-return-sls-orion/

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/11/sls-manifest-europa-mars-sample-return-missions/

I can't find the actual mission timeline, but it would look something like this -http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8ofVekLoEpo/Ux_j3L9Q2aI/AAAAAAAAuKc/D1UULwybmHE/s1600/red-dragon.jpg- except using SLS, and a dedicated sample return mission architecture, instead of FH. It's also, concequently, more ambitious.

I will never understand why they would not use 1 SLS/ Falcon Heavy, and give the sample return capsule extra shielding, rather then send a SLS/Falcon Heavy to retrieve the samples....

Uhh, they are using SLS to send an Orion to Mars orbit as well to pick up the samples and bring them home, it's a way to get humans to Mars in some fashion before 2030.

[Nibb31]

The Mars Sample Return mission is unmanned. It might use SLS, but not Orion.

[_Augustus_]

The Mars Sample Return mission is unmanned. It might use SLS, but not Orion.

They literally say in the article that they want to use Orion to pick up the samples.

[Nothalogh]

They literally say in the article that they want to use Orion to pick up the samples.

Orion is the capsule, it would have no use on such a mission.

That being said, there's only one true Orion

[fredinno]

You know, i really don't think we need to have ARM be a manned mission! I think a robot probe could do the mission just as well if not safer!

The alternative is orbiting the Moon for a while on an Orion (original EM-2). Would you prefer that?

- - - Updated - - -

They literally say in the article that they want to use Orion to pick up the samples.

I really don't think it's going to happen like that in 2024. It would be a good mission to give more purpose to a Mars Orbital/Mars Moon mission, but we first need to build and test a deep-space HAB. To do that, we would need something like Skylab II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylab_II or Deep Space Habitat (creative name there ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Space_Habitat and test long term duration w/o resupply in deep space.

In that sense, 2024 is too ambitious for a mission that sends its sample to Mars.

If the sample was sent to Lunar orbit, you could use the mission as a secondary mission to give more use to a mission in that vicinity (lunar landing, ARM, Skylab II, etc).

It would be possible by 2024, but you would need a primary Orion mission to go with it- using Orion just to pick up samples is horrendously wasteful.

[Nibb31]

They literally say in the article that they want to use Orion to pick up the samples.

Highly speculative. An Orion can't go all the way to Mars and back without being attached to a much larger spacecraft. Saying that you go to Mars in a crewed Orion would be like saying that Christobal Columbus crossed the Atlantic in the Santa Maria's dinghy.

[_Augustus_]

The alternative is orbiting the Moon for a while on an Orion (original EM-2). Would you prefer that?

- - - Updated - - -

I really don't think it's going to happen like that in 2024. It would be a good mission to give more purpose to a Mars Orbital/Mars Moon mission, but we first need to build and test a deep-space HAB. To do that, we would need something like Skylab II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylab_II or Deep Space Habitat (creative name there ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Space_Habitat and test long term duration w/o resupply in deep space.

In that sense, 2024 is too ambitious for a mission that sends its sample to Mars.

If the sample was sent to Lunar orbit, you could use the mission as a secondary mission to give more use to a mission in that vicinity (lunar landing, ARM, Skylab II, etc).

It would be possible by 2024, but you would need a primary Orion mission to go with it- using Orion just to pick up samples is horrendously wasteful.

Highly speculative. An Orion can't go all the way to Mars and back without being attached to a much larger spacecraft. Saying that you go to Mars in a crewed Orion would be like saying that Christobal Columbus crossed the Atlantic in the Santa Maria's dinghy.

I guess.. But they can always use 2 or 3 launches to bring a Deep Space Habitat or MLPM with them.

They only need 2 crew to do the mission, so if they only brought 2 or 3 crew they would only need an MLPM.

Also I think that an Orion going to Mars orbit like that would really inspire young folks to drop their ignorance and start learning and gaining interest in NASA, which would allow for the much-more-expensive Mars landings.

[Nibb31]

You'd be hard pressed to get everything you need to keep the crew and Orion alive for a year in space, plus propulsion to enter and leave Mars orbit, in a single MPLM. That would be a pretty miserable journey.

It might be inspiring (although I don't know what it would really take to inspire young folks these days), but it's not gonna happen in 2024.

[_Augustus_]

You'd be hard pressed to get everything you need to keep the crew and Orion alive for a year in space, plus propulsion to enter and leave Mars orbit, in a single MPLM. That would be a pretty miserable journey.

It might be inspiring (although I don't know what it would really take to inspire young folks these days), but it's not gonna happen in 2024.

I think that a Mars orbital mission would inspire plenty of young people to get off the couch, learn, and help give NASA more money.

And you could probably pull it off...

[AngelLestat]

I think that a Mars orbital mission would inspire plenty of young people to get off the couch, learn, and help give NASA more money.

And you could probably pull it off...

Until NASA does not change its policy, directors, planing, objectives... it would be like drop a 3/4 of the money to the trash.. Of course there are always worst places where that money can go to... so yeah.. goo NASA!!

[Bill Phil]

Until NASA does not change its policy, directors, planing, objectives... it would be like drop a 3/4 of the money to the trash.. Of course there are always worst places where that money can go to... so yeah.. goo NASA!!

Most of the money is allocated externally...

[Mitchz95]

Highly speculative. An Orion can't go all the way to Mars and back without being attached to a much larger spacecraft. Saying that you go to Mars in a crewed Orion would be like saying that Christobal Columbus crossed the Atlantic in the Santa Maria's dinghy.

This always bugged me. NASA constantly touts Orion as being the ship that will take humans to Mars, but it's obviously going to need a habitation module and fuel and everything. By that point you're almost better off designing it as one big ship and assembling it in orbit. Why do we need another Apollo-like capsule?

[Bill Phil]

This always bugged me. NASA constantly touts Orion as being the ship that will take humans to Mars, but it's obviously going to need a habitation module and fuel and everything. By that point you're almost better off designing it as one big ship and assembling it in orbit. Why do we need another Apollo-like capsule?

To ferry people around in cislunar space and anywhere else in the Earth Sphere.

[Mitchz95]

To ferry people around in cislunar space and anywhere else in the Earth Sphere.

Yeah, but why do they keep connecting it with Mars? It's not really good for anything farther out than the moon.

[Ten Key]

This always bugged me. NASA constantly touts Orion as being the ship that will take humans to Mars, but it's obviously going to need a habitation module and fuel and everything. By that point you're almost better off designing it as one big ship and assembling it in orbit. Why do we need another Apollo-like capsule?

Isn't Orion's heat shield supposed to (eventually?) be able to withstand a direct reentry from a Mars return? So they don't have to brake into Earth orbit first?

[Kryten]

Yeah, but why do they keep connecting it with Mars? It's not really good for anything farther out than the moon.

It's supposed to be the Earth return vehicle of that Mars mission NASA is required to do at some point, hence all the #JourneytoMars stuff.

[Bill Phil]

Yeah, but why do they keep connecting it with Mars? It's not really good for anything farther out than the moon.

To get people hyped, of course.

[Nibb31]

From its inception, Orion was designed for "Apollo on steroids" missions, i.e. The Moon. In the current scheme, it has been repurposed for trips to Lagrange points and cislunar trips, but it's still limited to 21-days of on-orbit life with limited living space and only 700m/s of dV.

Its only role in a Mars architecture is as a 22-ton dinghy for transferring to and from the MTV, which is a role that could be taken by a slightly beefed-up 11-ton Dragon or CST-100 for half the mass and without using a precious SLS for the launch.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Nibb31

[StrandedonEarth]

Wow, I didn't realize this thread had been idle for over a month. That might be a record!

Finally a little news, however. Falcon 9 Return-to-Flight NET November, probably launching SES-9, running up-rated Merlins and chilled kerosene. Link

Also, the NSF forum link posted above by Albert VDS has more news on the Vandenberg landing site.

[Red Iron Crown]

The question is whether or not SpaceX can get permission, because they still haven't managed a barge landing. There's always something that seems to be getting in the way for them, be it a storm or valve stition or a failed strut...

I don't see why they wouldn't get permission. The reason for avoiding land landings initially was in case of a wide miss that hit a populated area; SpaceX has demonstrated so far that they can hit the target during recovery (they just need to work on how hard they hit it).