Best hydrogen source for Venus

[kunok]

I may be explaining myself very bad, I was not looking to split the atoms down, something like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton%E2%80%93proton_chain_reaction (I'm researching a little not only asking), the fusion of two atoms of He³ has 2 H¹ of byproduct. There is a lot of commercial nuclear reactions, some may have already hydrogen as an byproduct.

 

EDIT: this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_emission

Edited April 24, 2016 by kunok

[kerbiloid]

1. Asteroids are puny things in comparison with Venus.

2. Better hang up a giant teleport gate under a balloon in the Jupiter's upper atmosphere and equalize pressures,

3. Venus's atmosphere consists of CO₂, which is acidic oxide highly soluble in water.
Once you deliver hydrogen and begin to create water, this water will immediately devour CO₂ and react with it.
As a result you will get a boiling ocean of carbonic acid, dissolving the crustal minerals, covering the Venus surface with a skin of carbonates.
Once you consume all the atmospheric CO₂ with hydrogen, you will get a planet with thin, still CO₂ atmosphere, boiling and salty acidic ocean on its subsolar side and an acidic ice cap on its night side.
As Venus rotates once per several months, and its clouds will no more reflect the Sun light, the acidic hurricanes will uplift huge amounts of the acidic liquid to the sky, where it will be splitted by the solar UV photons,
Released hydrogen and oxygen will dissipate into space, and several centuries later only a thin vomicose layer of carbonates will remind about the vanished atmosphere and the attempt to make an ocean on the burny, lifeless planet...

Edited April 24, 2016 by kerbiloid

[kunok]

32 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

Snip

We are not talking at all about that. We are talking about the hydrogen needs of floating colonies in venus

[todofwar]

4 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

1. Asteroids are puny things in comparison with Venus.

2. Better hang up a giant teleport gate under a balloon in the Jupiter's upper atmosphere and equalize pressures,

3. Venus's atmosphere consists of CO₂, which is acidic oxide highly soluble in water.
Once you deliver hydrogen and begin to create water, this water will immediately devour CO₂ and react with it.
As a result you will get a boiling ocean of carbonic acid, dissolving the crustal minerals, covering the Venus surface with a skin of carbonates.
Once you consume all the atmospheric CO₂ with hydrogen, you will get a planet with thin, still CO₂ atmosphere, boiling and salty acidic ocean on its subsolar side and an acidic ice cap on its night side.
As Venus rotates once per several months, and its clouds will no more reflect the Sun light, the acidic hurricanes will uplift huge amounts of the acidic liquid to the sky, where it will be splitted by the solar UV photons,
Released hydrogen and oxygen will dissipate into space, and several centuries later only a thin vomicose layer of carbonates will remind about the vanished atmosphere and the attempt to make an ocean on the burny, lifeless planet...

OK there are a few issues with this. First, a teleport gate is probably not actually possible. Second, the reaction to produce carbonic acid isn't exactly spontaneous. There is an equilibrium between carbonic acid and free co2, but it's very pH dependent and the more acidic you get the more co2 you expel. You can see this by adding vinegar to baking soda. So even if you did add that much water it would more likely fully react with all the SO2 forming sulfuric acid. So really, not much of a change from Venus today. There might be some carbonate formation but I doubt it would be nearly enough to cause the kind of change you describe. Also, that process of hydrogen loss has been going on for millions of years, hence why we need hydrogen in the first place.

[todofwar]

Oh, and it's impossible to have floating balloons on Jupiter. 

[kerbiloid]

9 hours ago, todofwar said:

First, a teleport gate is probably not actually possible.

 

5 hours ago, todofwar said:

Oh, and it's impossible to have floating balloons on Jupiter

Well, then an Alcubierre shuttle is in order.

9 hours ago, todofwar said:

There is an equilibrium between carbonic acid and free co2

Sure. But on Venus you have almost pure CO₂ without any significant H₂O.
So, the equilibrium will be anyway between H₂CO₃ * n CO₂ and H₂CO₃ * m CO₂, unless you cover all over the planet with a deep ocean.

 

9 hours ago, todofwar said:

reaction to produce carbonic acid isn't exactly spontaneous

H₂CO₃ is itself enough ephemerous substance, either H⁺HCO₃^- or H₂O * CO₂. But it reacts enough well with basic oxides such as stones are.
 

Edited April 25, 2016 by kerbiloid

[lajoswinkler]

There's probably plenty of water bonded in the lithosphere of Venus as hydrates. Not much, but way more than there is present in free form in atmosphere.

[kerbiloid]

12 minutes ago, lajoswinkler said:

There's probably plenty of water bonded in the lithosphere of Venus as hydrates

Not sure, because it still has an enormous amount of CO₂.
Both substances (H₂O and CO₂) are being exhausted from the lithosphere as volcanic gases, then cool down and condensate. That's when hydrates and carbonates are being disintegrated by the mantle processes.
So, we can presume that significant amounts of water (comparable to the Earth hydrosphere) already had been exhausted (and dissipated into space) and there is not too much of it in accessible form.

Edited April 25, 2016 by kerbiloid

[lajoswinkler]

1 hour ago, kerbiloid said:

Not sure, because it still has an enormous amount of CO₂.
Both substances (H₂O and CO₂) are being exhausted from the lithosphere as volcanic gases, then cool down and condensate. That's when hydrates and carbonates are being disintegrated by the mantle processes.
So, we can presume that significant amounts of water (comparable to the Earth hydrosphere) already had been exhausted (and dissipated into space) and there is not too much of it in accessible form.

Plausible, but what if the mantle recycling is dead or almost dead? There are abominable amounts of water in terrestrial planets bonded inside their lithospheres.

[kerbiloid]

Currently it's probably almost dead, as we yet haven't listen about multiple volcanos throwing out clouds of water steam (as on the Earth).
(Poor little romantic sci-fi of 50s with its boggy and volcanic Venus, I miss it.)

But 90 bars or CO₂ are already here, so we can be sure that in past the Venus was a very volcanic planet.

A partial pressure of CO₂ of the Earth atmosphere is only 0.03 bar.
Afaik, the ocean contains 140 times more of dissolved CO₂. So if release it, the Earth CO₂ pressure would be several bars.

I.e. looks like the Venus has already exhausted even more gases than the Earth dreams to do. Both CO₂ and H₂O.
And as we can't see H₂O in its atmosphere...

Also, probably proto-Venus has appeared 1.5 times closer to the Sun than the proto-Earth.
This means that its original material had lost more light elements before it became a planet.

Also its atmosphere contains huge amounts of H₂SO₄.
Probably this means that the Venerian rocks were heated even more than the terrestrial ones, as there is not so much sulfic oxides over the Earth.
(The ultimate case is Io. It lost almost all water and CO₂, but still being heated, exhausts the sulfic gases appeared from disintegrated sulfic minerals).

So, I'm afraid there's some lack of water in Venus.

Edited April 25, 2016 by kerbiloid

[todofwar]

4 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

 

Well, then an Alcubierre shuttle is in order.

Sure. But on Venus you have almost pure CO₂ without any significant H₂O.
So, the equilibrium will be anyway between H₂CO₃ * n CO₂ and H₂CO₃ * m CO₂, unless you cover all over the planet with a deep ocean.

 

H₂CO₃ is itself enough ephemerous substance, either H⁺HCO₃^- or H₂O * CO₂. But it reacts enough well with basic oxides such as stones are.
 

Carbonic acid is completely ustable. The only reason it persists in the ocean is because it can dissociate a proton to water and survive as carbonate. I doubt it would ever reach the surface before decomposing, and if it did it would need to free up that proton somewhere. Any basic minerals tied up in rocks won't be terribly accessible. It would be interesting to see if there are carbonate skins on some rocks, but no way you can get the kind of sea of carbonic acid you describe. Think of it this way, if that was how co2 and water reacted your bottle of soda would be pure carbonic acid. But it's not, because phosphates buffer it to low pH so all the co2 remains co2.

[kerbiloid]

47 minutes ago, todofwar said:

I doubt it would ever reach the surface before decomposing,

If we talk about Venus, the acid wouldn't "reach the surface", it would "appear while the surface absorbs the atmospheric gas (i.e. CO₂)".

And as there is much more CO₂ than H₂O in any moment of this terraforming, and as CO₂ is highly soluble in water, we can await a "pool of acidic solution under pressure of carbon dioxide".

The more water you deliver - the more acid you have, until you create a deep ocean where all the atmospheric CO₂ can be dissolved.

So, the minerals are very accessible until the water depth is less than kilometers.

About CO₂/H₂CO₃: when you breathe, CO₂ appears in your cells and dissolves in H₂O of your blood.
And you can breathe only because appearing H₂CO₃ irritates your acidic receptors in the brain.

Edited April 25, 2016 by kerbiloid

[todofwar]

19 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

If we talk about Venus, the acid wouldn't "reach the surface", it would "appear while the surface absorbs the atmospheric gas (i.e. CO₂)".

And as there is much more CO₂ than H₂O in any moment of this terraforming, and as CO₂ is highly soluble in water, we can await a "pool of acidic solution under pressure of carbon dioxide".

The more water you deliver - the more acid you have, until you create a deep ocean where all the atmospheric CO₂ can be dissolved.

So, the minerals are very accessible until the water depth is less than kilometers.

About CO₂/H₂CO₃: when you breathe, CO₂ appears in your cells and dissolves in H₂O of your blood.
And you can breathe only because appearing H₂CO₃ irritates your acidic receptors in the brain.

We might be talking about different things here, i meant enough hydrogen for floating cities, not to terraform the planet. If you mean to dump enough water on Venus to form an ocean, you'll first need to drastically cool it. Even at that point you won't really acidify anything too much because again, carbonic acid is unstable so lower than a certain pH no more co2 will dissolve regardless of relative amounts. And some of the most efficient enzymes on earth (theoretically you can't actually get more efficient through evolution than these things) are the ones evolved to catalyze the conversion of co2 to carbonate and vice versa, which is why co2 can get in and out as needed.

[kerbiloid]

7 minutes ago, todofwar said:

We might be talking about different things here

Yes, looks like that.

[Finox]

What about using the hydrogen from the solar wind by setting up a magnetic "sail" to redirect it back towards Venus?   Magnetic sails have already been theorized; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet so this would be re-purposing and scaling up an existing idea.   The biggest problem I see (aside from the engineering of something this big), is balancing the pressure of the solar wind with Venus's gravity to keep it in position.   I think putting it at the Venusian L2 lagrange point would solve this, and as a bonus if might be able to recapture some of the hydrogen being lost to the solar wind.

Thoughts?

[todofwar]

1 hour ago, Finox said:

What about using the hydrogen from the solar wind by setting up a magnetic "sail" to redirect it back towards Venus?   Magnetic sails have already been theorized; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet so this would be re-purposing and scaling up an existing idea.   The biggest problem I see (aside from the engineering of something this big), is balancing the pressure of the solar wind with Venus's gravity to keep it in position.   I think putting it at the Venusian L2 lagrange point would solve this, and as a bonus if might be able to recapture some of the hydrogen being lost to the solar wind.

Thoughts?

Interesting idea. I don't know about a source of hydrogen, but maybe as a way to counteract loss from the upper atmosphere. 

[lajoswinkler]

8 hours ago, Finox said:

What about using the hydrogen from the solar wind by setting up a magnetic "sail" to redirect it back towards Venus?   Magnetic sails have already been theorized; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet so this would be re-purposing and scaling up an existing idea.   The biggest problem I see (aside from the engineering of something this big), is balancing the pressure of the solar wind with Venus's gravity to keep it in position.   I think putting it at the Venusian L2 lagrange point would solve this, and as a bonus if might be able to recapture some of the hydrogen being lost to the solar wind.

Thoughts?

No. The amounts of matter it could collect in reasonable time are laughable.

[Finox]

 

13 hours ago, lajoswinkler said:

No. The amounts of matter it could collect in reasonable time are laughable.

I'd assume terraforming Venus would already be a pretty long term project given how much extra CO2 there is to sequester, probably on the order of centuries.   Even with something as diffuse as the solar wind a planet sized magnetic sail could still potentially capture a great deal of hydrogen.   Besides once its set up such a system shouldn't require much operator intervention or much in the way of consumables, so all that hydrogen would largely be free once the sail is built.   It's not the fastest way to bring in hydrogen, but worth considering?

[M Ali]

 

• Plan to Transform Venus’s Atmosphere Using Cerium Oxide and Diamond Conversion Over 10 Years

  Goal:

  Transform Venus’s atmosphere over 10 years by breaking down CO₂ into carbon and oxygen using cerium oxide catalysts, converting the carbon into inert diamonds, and releasing oxygen into the atmosphere. This process will help reduce the atmospheric CO₂ and gradually shift Venus towards a more Earth-like environment.

  ---

  Step-by-Step Process:

  1. Deployment of Floating Machines:

• 1,000 floating machines equipped with 31.16 kg of cerium oxide each (total of 31.16 tons for all machines) are deployed into Venus's dense atmosphere over the course of the project.
• These machines will float in the upper atmosphere of Venus at altitudes where temperatures (~400–475°C) and pressures (~10–20 atm) are optimal for the catalytic breakdown of CO₂.

• 2. Catalytic Breakdown of CO₂:

• Cerium oxide catalyzes the decomposition of CO₂ into carbon and oxygen over a span of 10 years:
  CO2+CeO2→C (solid)+O2
• The machines utilize Venus’s high temperatures (450–475°C) to drive the conversion process.
• Oxygen gas is released into the atmosphere, gradually increasing the oxygen content in Venus’s atmosphere.
• Carbon is captured as a solid material and processed into diamonds.

• 3. Carbon Conversion to Diamonds:

• The collected carbon is subjected to high pressure (~92 atm) and high temperatures (~475°C) in Venus’s atmosphere to convert it into diamond.
• Floating machines are equipped with pressure chambers to facilitate the conversion process of carbon into diamonds using Venus’s natural environment.
• Diamonds are chemically inert, stable, and do not react with oxygen or other atmospheric elements, making them ideal for disposal.

• 4. Carbon Handling and Ejection:

• Once the carbon is converted into diamonds, the floating machines eject the diamonds onto Venus’s surface.
• The diamonds are stable and remain inert on the surface, as they are chemically non-reactive with the surrounding environment.

• 5. Oxygen Release:

• The oxygen produced from the CO₂ breakdown is gradually released into Venus’s atmosphere over the 10 years.
• This release of oxygen will help to decrease the CO₂ levels and contribute to the gradual buildup of oxygen in the atmosphere, aiding in the transformation of Venus.

• 6. Recycling and Catalyst Regeneration:

• Cerium oxide is a regenerative catalyst. It undergoes a redox cycle where it returns to its original form after each reaction.
• The floating machines continuously process CO₂, with cerium oxide regenerating itself, enabling the system to operate efficiently throughout the 10-year period.

• 7. Scaling and Long-Term Operation:

• The process continues over the full 10-year period, with the 1,000 floating machines working in tandem to process and convert CO₂ from Venus's atmosphere.
• The carbon converted into diamonds is collected and stored on Venus’s surface, while oxygen is continuously released, increasing in the atmosphere.
• This process will gradually reduce Venus’s CO₂ levels, build oxygen, and contribute to a long-term transformation of the atmosphere.

• ---

  Key Advantages of the Diamond Technique:

• Inert Carbon: Diamonds are chemically inert, ensuring the carbon remains stable and non-reactive in Venus’s atmosphere, even after 10 years.
• Utilizing Venus's Natural Conditions: Venus’s high temperature and pressure are ideal for diamond formation, minimizing the need for additional energy or machinery.
• Stable Long-Term Solution: Diamonds are stable under extreme conditions, ensuring that the carbon remains stored securely on the surface, without environmental concerns, for the duration of the 10-year transformation period.

• ---

  Conclusion:

  Over the course of 10 years, the 1,000 floating machines will use cerium oxide catalysts to break down CO₂ into carbon and oxygen. The carbon will be converted into diamonds, which are stable and inert, and will be ejected onto Venus's surface. The oxygen produced will help increase the oxygen content in the atmosphere, gradually reducing the CO₂ levels and transforming Venus’s environment toward a more Earth-like state.
  
   

  The plan to transform Venus's atmosphere using cerium oxide catalysts, carbon conversion into diamonds, and oxygen release is ambitious and involves several technical, environmental, and logistical challenges. Here are the main challenges in executing this plan:

  1. Atmospheric Conditions on Venus

• High Pressure (92 atm) and Temperature (~475°C):

  • Challenge: Venus’s extreme atmospheric pressure and temperature pose significant risks for both the floating machines and the chemical processes involved. Machines must be built to withstand constant exposure to pressures nearly 100 times that of Earth and temperatures that can melt metals.
  • Solution: The machines need heat-resistant materials (e.g., titanium, ceramic composites) and high-pressure housing to protect sensitive equipment. Thermal insulation or cooling systems may also be required.

• Sulfuric Acid Clouds:

  • Challenge: Venus's atmosphere contains dense clouds of sulfuric acid, which could corrode machinery and interfere with the chemical processes.
  • Solution: Machines will need to be acid-resistant and have protective coatings to prevent damage to vital components, such as catalysts and electronics.

• 2. Machine Durability and Longevity

• Continuous Operation for 10 Years:

  • Challenge: The machines need to operate continuously in a harsh environment for a decade without failure. Any wear or degradation in the floating machines’ systems could halt the transformation process.
  • Solution: Self-repair mechanisms and redundant systems could help extend the operational life. Additionally, solar panels or other energy-harvesting systems must be robust enough to function in Venus's thick clouds and dim sunlight.

• Regeneration of Cerium Oxide:

  • Challenge: The cerium oxide catalyst must remain effective over a long period, as it will need to go through multiple cycles of reduction and oxidation. Its regeneration rate could be affected by impurities or the efficiency of the reaction.
  • Solution: High-quality cerium oxide should be used, and techniques like catalyst regeneration systems or periodic machine cleaning could be implemented to ensure the catalyst retains its effectiveness over time.

• 3. Carbon Handling and Conversion into Diamonds

• Pressure and Temperature for Diamond Formation:

  • Challenge: While Venus’s high pressure and temperature are suitable for diamond formation, precisely controlling these conditions is critical to converting carbon into diamonds efficiently and consistently.
  • Solution: The machines will need pressurization chambers capable of reaching and maintaining the right conditions for diamond crystallization, which may require additional energy and engineering expertise.

• Efficient Carbon Capture:

  • Challenge: The process must capture all the carbon produced from CO₂ decomposition, especially given that Venus's atmosphere is dense, and the carbon may exist in different forms.
  • Solution: The machines will need advanced filtration and collection systems to separate the solid carbon, store it, and compress it into diamonds. Efficient carbon capture is crucial to prevent waste and ensure maximum efficiency.

[kerbiloid]

8 hours ago, M Ali said:

These machines will float in the upper atmosphere of Venus at altitudes where temperatures (~400–475°C) and pressures (~10–20 atm) are optimal for the catalytic breakdown of CO₂.

8 hours ago, M Ali said:

The machines utilize Venus’s high temperatures (450–475°C) to drive the conversion process.

470 C is at surface.
At 50..60 km it's almost room temperature.

8 hours ago, M Ali said:

The collected carbon is subjected to high pressure (~92 atm) and high temperatures (~475°C) in Venus’s atmosphere to convert it into diamond.

It requires at least 60 000 atm.

[M Ali]

3 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

470 C is at surface.
At 50..60 km it's almost room temperature.

It requires at least 60 000 atm.

Revised Solution:

1. Synthetic Diamond Formation Technologies:
   • Instead of relying solely on Venus’s conditions, equip the floating machines with high-pressure chambers capable of achieving diamond formation pressures. These chambers could use mechanical or hydraulic systems powered by harvested energy.
   • Alternatively, consider forming carbon into stable graphite or carbon composites, which require much lower pressures (~10,000 atm) and still provide chemically inert materials for long-term storage.
2. Leave Carbon in an Alternative Form:
   • Convert captured carbon into amorphous or powder forms, which could be stored in stable containment systems on Venus’s surface or utilized in future projects for structural or energy applications.

[M Ali]

 

• Adjust the Catalytic Reaction Requirements: Cerium oxide can catalyze the breakdown of CO₂ at lower temperatures if coupled with additional energy input. The machines could include compact solar concentrators or resistive heaters to create localized high-temperature zones (~450°C) required for the reaction.
  • Alternatively, explore catalysts that operate effectively at ambient conditions in the target altitudes.
• Redesign Deployment Altitudes: Place the floating machines at optimal altitudes (closer to 45–50 km) where conditions are both manageable and conducive to operating high-temperature zones for the catalytic reaction.

[darthgently]

7 hours ago, M Ali said:

 

• Adjust the Catalytic Reaction Requirements: Cerium oxide can catalyze the breakdown of CO₂ at lower temperatures if coupled with additional energy input. The machines could include compact solar concentrators or resistive heaters to create localized high-temperature zones (~450°C) required for the reaction.
  • Alternatively, explore catalysts that operate effectively at ambient conditions in the target altitudes.
• Redesign Deployment Altitudes: Place the floating machines at optimal altitudes (closer to 45–50 km) where conditions are both manageable and conducive to operating high-temperature zones for the catalytic reaction.

This is really interesting stuff.  I admit, other than 10K years from now I’d written off terraforming any world in the Sol system other than perhaps interventions to keep Earth viable longer (preventing another snowball earth scenario for example).

I see Mars as creating habitable enclosed zones but terraforming is very very far down the road if ever.   I’ve never been a huge fan of cities floating in acidic Venusian clouds.  But dropping carbon out of the atmosphere there would drop the atmospheric pressure in addition to unbinding oxygen also, I think, and on a relatively fast schedule.

 The proximity to the Sun and solar storms, the way too slow diurnal period, and lack of magnetic fields would likely be huge obstacles.  But anything that makes it easier to land and launch from the surface would make it easier to obtain resources from the surface.

So while Venus may never be a good location for humans and terrestrial life to live, it could be very wise to strip mine it before an expanding sun makes it impossible.  Lowering the atmospheric pressure and making oxygen more available would make that much easier

Edited November 22 by darthgently

[Nuke]

big orbital proton collectors?

[kerbiloid]

A low-solar orbital magnetic trap, sending hydrogen beams to Venus.

Maybe better to produce and collect carbonates from metal oxides and CO2.

Then a fresh sulfic acid rain will fall down from the sky itself.

The carbonates will turn into sulfates and water.

Quote

The atmosphere of Venus is composed of 96.5% carbon dioxide, 3.5% nitrogen, and traces of other gases, most notably sulfur dioxide

So, we can have a N-CO2 atmosphere with 1 atm.