Orbital station construction?

[strider3]

I am trying to build an orbital refueling station around Kerbin. I have seen a lot of screenshots of stations, simple to very complex. My question regards girders and I-beams. How are these structural elements added to an existing station as it grows? As I add modules and fuel storage tanks to my station, I can see a need, in the near future, for some added strengthening and solidifying of the overall station. How is that done? Also solar panels, again, as the station increases in size, I imagine I will need to add larger solar arrays instead of having half hazard arrays added to every module I fly up.

Vic the Newbal

[steuben]

The same way as any other unit is added. You attach them as part of a module using docking ports or the klaw. at least in stock. there are mods out there that will let you attach arbitrary parts to things, which will be suggested by others.

A bit of planning will go a fair ways though. Don't forget to design and lift up a node module, they will greatly ease adding on to a station. And double the amount of MP that you think you need.

 

[strider3]

Steuben, so I can disconnect, move and attach solar arrays from one part to another while in orbit? Also, how do I get parts like girders up to the station? I mean, do I store them in some sort of cargo container?

As you can tell I have no idea how to do any kind of construction when I'm not in the VAB.

Edited April 29, 2016 by strider3

[Octa]

29 minutes ago, steuben said:

The same way as any other unit is added. You attach them as part of a module using docking ports or the klaw. at least in stock. there are mods out there that will let you attach arbitrary parts to things, which will be suggested by others.

A bit of planning will go a fair ways though. Don't forget to design and lift up a node module, they will greatly ease adding on to a station. And double the amount of MP that you think you need.

 

MP?

As you predicted, i suggest KAS (Kerbal Attachment System) if you like to add/remove/replace (small) parts of a station. With stock KSP, you cannot replace small solar panels by larger ones for example. For this, you would have to launch and dock a new module to your station which adds up or replaces the exsting module.

Since docking ports are the only stock way to add something to an existing station, you would definitely need KAS to add some additional structural strenght to your station (i use the KAS struts to stiffen the construction at the end)

[steuben]

MP <-- monopropellant

 

[strider3]

I am trying to avoid "over modding" but it seems like KAS might be a "must have" for this kind of thing. Will KAS also help with attaching "storage" fuel tanks to the station? I tried attaching a docking port to a fuel tank in the VAB but had no luck and I don't know how else I will attach the tank to my "orbital gas station" and then be able to attach another craft to refuel from it? S-I-G-H...so much to learn yet.

I am guessing I will still need a "tug" to move the parts around, even with KAS?

Edited April 29, 2016 by strider3

[Invader Jim]

My tendency is to keep a fuel station fairly simple.  I use docking ports to link various parts and don't' build huge stations.  I usually link orange fuel tanks together to make a station. I have also used  a refueling "tug" that is smaller and more agile than the station because that makes it easier to dock.  If you have a big refueling station and you want to refuel a big ship nearby I found it was easier to use a smaller ship as a go-between for docking than to try to dock a big rocket with a big station.  Also, once you are in orbit around Kerbin, fuel gets you a lot more DV than on the surface of the planet so in my experience you don't need to add huge amounts of fuel to get a lot more DV.

[strider3]

26 minutes ago, Invader Jim said:

My tendency is to keep a fuel station fairly simple.  I use docking ports to link various parts and don't' build huge stations.  I usually link orange fuel tanks together to make a station. I have also used  a refueling "tug" that is smaller and more agile than the station because that makes it easier to dock.  If you have a big refueling station and you want to refuel a big ship nearby I found it was easier to use a smaller ship as a go-between for docking than to try to dock a big rocket with a big station.  Also, once you are in orbit around Kerbin, fuel gets you a lot more DV than on the surface of the planet so in my experience you don't need to add huge amounts of fuel to get a lot more DV.

Exactly...once in orbit, 85% of the fuel requirement is done (not a scientific number! LOL). But I still have the problem...how do I add docking ports to fuel tanks? It certainly isn't working for me in the VAB as the docking port never really "attaches" to the tank?

[Plusck]

7 minutes ago, Victor3 said:

Exactly...once in orbit, 85% of the fuel requirement is done (not a scientific number! LOL). But I still have the problem...how do I add docking ports to fuel tanks? It certainly isn't working for me in the VAB as the docking port never really "attaches" to the tank?

Docking ports should attach fine to fuel tanks, radially. As always, they can be a bit difficult at the ends of things - you just have to aim a hair's breadth above where you want to put it and it will turn green.

[swjr-swis]

3 hours ago, Victor3 said:

My question regards girders and I-beams. How are these structural elements added to an existing station as it grows? As I add modules and fuel storage tanks to my station, I can see a need, in the near future, for some added strengthening and solidifying of the overall station. How is that done? Also solar panels, again, as the station increases in size, I imagine I will need to add larger solar arrays instead of having half hazard arrays added to every module I fly up.

I always build stations with modular expansions in mind, so in stock careers, that means liberal use of docking ports. One of the tricks for rigidity would be to design/build with multi-port connections, but in 1.1.x this is not working anymore (bug reported and is being looked into).

For things like station-wide EC power, I design girder-like modules with solar panels, RTG, batteries radially attached around the girder, with docking ports at the end, to be lifted up and connected like other modules.

Same goes for fuel/tank modules, most tanks can be radially attached to a center girder, which will also allow fuel flow, and put the docking ports at the ends of the girder instead of on the tanks themselves. This allows for a very dense packing of tanks that can be placed and strutted reasonably easy in the stock fairings for lifting.

It pays to spend some time in the VAB or SPH designing the station modules as subassemblies, so you can place them side by side to compare, ensure the docking ports align properly, module lengths follow a certain system, etc, which will help to make things couple together well, and simplifies the design of your lifting vehicle.

[Invader Jim]

14 minutes ago, Victor3 said:

Exactly...once in orbit, 85% of the fuel requirement is done (not a scientific number! LOL). But I still have the problem...how do I add docking ports to fuel tanks? It certainly isn't working for me in the VAB as the docking port never really "attaches" to the tank?

That is odd. I have had no problems attaching a docking port to a fuel tank in the VAB.  I usually place two, one on each side of the tank.

 

The http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Rockomax_HubMax_Multi-Point_Connector   is a handy item. 

Edited April 29, 2016 by Invader Jim
clarification

[Callmedave]

I would recommend doing a rough sketch on paper how you want the station to look. Then break it down in to the sections you can lift to orbit and decide how it will go together. A little bit of planning before anything goes up will help greatly later.

remeber to include space for future expansion.

you don't need to worry too much about ridigity of the craft if it is to stay in orbit.

if you were building it to send it to other planets, then you want to consider ridigity.

pist pictures of your progress and we will all compliment/criticise where nessecary! 

[klesh]

For power, I'll use a main solar array with a few backup panels. 

 

Main array is basically these:

 

   

 

Add some RCS thrusters to the ends, and pack it inside a fairing, such that your ship is connected to the decoupler, and the docking port is your nose, ready to be paired to a docking port on your station.   Once docked, separate the ship that brought it up with the decoupler and you now have yourself mucho power.

[pincushionman]

5 hours ago, Victor3 said:

I am trying to build an orbital refueling station around Kerbin. I have seen a lot of screenshots of stations, simple to very complex. My question regards girders and I-beams. How are these structural elements added to an existing station as it grows? As I add modules and fuel storage tanks to my station, I can see a need, in the near future, for some added strengthening and solidifying of the overall station. How is that done? Also solar panels, again, as the station increases in size, I imagine I will need to add larger solar arrays instead of having half hazard arrays added to every module I fly up.

Vic the Newbal

When you go on about girders, it makes me think you expect to place girders or trusses between existing sections? I've got bad news: you can't. Not in the VAB, and not after the fact with KAS. The "tree" vessel structure does not allow such connections.

The only ways to create such connections are strut parts and multiport docking, and from what I've read here multiport docking has suffered in the 1.1 engine port (someone please tell me I'm wrong).

So struts are the only answer, and the only way to attach them after launch is using KAS. The only other thing is to make your station stiff enough without reinforcement. Clamp-O-Tron Sr.'s help a lot here. Also, your station should rarely be under thrust.

[strider3]

So it seems most of you attach fuel tanks to your stations with a radial attachment. I will try again, as Plusck suggests, to add a docking port to the end but so far I have had no luck...it simply wont "click" and gets left behind if I move the craft in the VAB. Then again, I like the idea of a central girder with tanks attached.  I was not aware, as swjr-swis mentions above, that girders, by themselves, will allow fuel flow...that simplifies things.

Klesh, where, in your image above, would the fairing go, exactly? If I am understanding you, the "top" of the construction you show, once on the lifting craft, would be the docking port? I am not very good with fairings...I seem to have a terrible time getting them "set" to the proper shape in the VAB.

You are correct, pincushionman...it was my hope to be able to do "major" construction while in space. I'll have to "retool" my thinking on this.

Back to the drawing board!

[FancyMouse]

6 hours ago, Victor3 said:

But I still have the problem...how do I add docking ports to fuel tanks? It certainly isn't working for me in the VAB as the docking port never really "attaches" to the tank?

Big docking port (Sr) doesn't do surface attach. You'll need something that can surface attach and give an attachment point, then attach big docking port to it. My preference is this which gives a solid connection for large incoming ships.

Normal port and tiny one (Jr) can surface attach directly.

[strider3]

FancyMouse...my problem (stated correctly this time) is attaching a docking port to the ends of a tank. I don't have the Sr. port yet but the normal port won't "stick" to the ends of a tank (so far anyway). That may not really be an issue now that I have a better grasp of radially docking tanks to a girder, which sounds like a better idea for my "gas station".

[FancyMouse]

33 minutes ago, Victor3 said:

FancyMouse...my problem (stated correctly this time) is attaching a docking port to the ends of a tank. I don't have the Sr. port yet but the normal port won't "stick" to the ends of a tank (so far anyway). That may not really be an issue now that I have a better grasp of radially docking tanks to a girder, which sounds like a better idea for my "gas station".

Hold alt to force attachment point attach. If it still doesn't work - you might want to fire up alt-F2 and see if NRE or any bad thing strikes you. The only time I find I cannot attach something as I expected is when VAB becomes horribly wrong with a flood of NREs.

[Norcalplanner]

If it's mainly fuel you're looking for in orbit, you can also have an unmanned refueling ship/depot.  Here's a simple one with an orange tank worth of fuel:

All you would need to do is put some standard size docking ports on the sides (in addition to the one under the nose cone), put a hitchhiker in between the orange tank and the C7 adapter if you want some crew capacity, and beef up the launch stage a bit to account for the extra weight and drag.  I'll note that this rocket is using Kerbal Joint Reinforcement, so a version of it recreated in stock will need some additional struts.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Norcalplanner
clarified things

[Stoney3K]

Also a good tip, if your station is manned, add ample ladders for EVA crew members to grab on to. I usually put ladder sections on my girders which hold the solar arrays. The tiny docking port (Jr.) is great for linking the girder parts together.

Keep the solar arrays well away from the approach route for incoming ships. you don't want your ships to hit the arrays when they try to dock. And make sure that there is at most ONE torque wheel that's active on your station, otherwise, it will wobble like crazy and tear apart when you enable SAS.