The Orion and the Kraken?! (6000m auto explosion)

[smjjames]

Try the v3 booster one maybe? I've also now ran into that random sudden unreproducibility as well.

[Arugela]

I'm trying that now. There was one difference to that flight. I think I started it from the runway from when I restarted the game. It was already on the runway on game loading and merely start that flight by clicking fly on the spaceship sitting on the launchpad at start. I know this time because I can now only go back to launch and not the VAB like I normally do!

Edited May 12, 2016 by Arugela

[smjjames]

EDIT: BOOM! It exploded when I was returning from map menu and I was just sort of flying around. Though it seems to be more like sudden RUD than kraken, not sure there.

I'm 99% sure that one was actual RUD and not kraken, going to restart game to see if I can reproduce the bug again.

Edit2: I was able to reproduce it again with the same craft after a KSP restart.

Edit3: I tried to remove the lower half of the ship and ended up causing the kraken to attack. I think this is the corruption you mentioned.... edit4: Double checked and it's reproducible, theres something on the section below the MK3 fuselage longs.

Edited May 12, 2016 by smjjames

[Arugela]

If you are using the V3 then that is where the corrupt Radiator Panel(large) is located on that version. (Edit: I was mistaken. It is the v3 and the original v4 that have it there. Only the v4 1.1.2 v2 has it at the nose of the ship! I was assuming all v4 has the panels removed and the bad one located.)

It is in the very top row of radiator panels just above the ore containers on the big s3 14400 tanks. It is just below where the adaptors are then the other rectangular tanks start(I call it the kneck of the ship).

If you are on the V4(Edit: 1.1.2 v2) that same panel was moved to the MK3 cockpit. And it may produce the same error.

This is the error from the other thread about the file becoming corrupt.

Edit: I just reproduced the same error from the V3 vessel. I got it to explode then reloaded with the cheats on.

I actually like that. It looks like one of those monster snakes made out of a million little parts swimming around in the air! It is a living thing now!! oO

If only there were less lag. We could utilize this on purpose.... 8) (Space snakes!!! 8o) I wonder if you could do that on purpose in a lesser extend in a game and make a cool boss monster made of physics..

I wonder why those engines are highlighted in the staging thing...?

 

 

Edited May 13, 2016 by Arugela

[smjjames]

5 minutes ago, Arugela said:

If you are using the V3 then that is where the corrupt Radiator Panel(large) is located on that version.

It is in the very top row of radiator panels just above the ore containers on the big s3 14400 tanks. It is just below where the adaptors are then the other rectangular tanks start(I call it the keck of the ship).

If you are on the V4 that same panel was moved to the MK3 cockpit. And it may produce the same error.

This is the error from the other thread about the file becoming corrupt.

It's the V4 v2 bug version craft. I've edited the bug report title to include a note about file corruption since that looks like the case here.

[Arugela]

Take the original V4 file in the VAB, rename it slightly then take the two radiator panels off it(The ones on the MK3 cockpits). Save and reload in the VAB and see if it does this:(Unless you figured out past this already. I'm not sure what a RUD is.)

Note the lack of staging completion and other issues.

I forgot. I was going to try to take those two parts and not save it and just lunch and see what happened. Although if it's not saved to a different file name first it may corrupt the base file anyway.(Or whatever file it was launched from.)

I found a version from before heat panels were even likely in the game yet(or at least not on the ship). It's a bit different looking. I'll fly it up and see if it's doing the same just to see.

Pre Heat panel craft:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ba06fiexpi5vncg/The Orion3.craft?dl=0 (do not separate the stage on the boosters on this craft. This ship was made before there were shrouds on the engines. If you separate they will explode into each other and destroy the ship. This is why I remade this ship from scrap. and I wanted to make the ship more accurate. I later figure out they had added the shrouds and they were blowing stuff up on separation staging. besdies that the file is probably good.)

I think it just blew up on the runway also!!! Holy crap! And crashed the game...

I thought I had completely remade this ship basically since this version. unless there were some small parts I imported it should not be having the issues... Maybe I'm remembering wrong. Unless that is unrelated.

I was expecting that to have no issues and reveals something.. maybe it was because it was launched after the last one blew up and I hadn't restarted yet. I'm not sure now. Launching this one to see if it also explodes at 6k.

Edit: It flew past 6k just now and did not blow up. But it did that weird engine stutter and you could see a break in the smoke coming out of the engines. It still may be vulnerable to blowing up on the runway after the other ship blows up though. I'll check that next. this ship might have had a tendency randomly blow up on the runway/launchpad though. So it may be irrelevant. (Or highly relevant if it has to do with the ships general design.)

Edit2: Going to try to blow up the V4 one(if it will do so again) and then load the Orion3 on the launchpad to remove/confirm any possible relationship. Or maybe a relationship to parts counts or something. the Orion3 version should have no relation to the other besides general similar design and parts count. I'm still pretty sure I remade the ship from scratch for the newer ones we are testing.(I'm doing this also because I was looking for a version of the one we are testing before I put on radiator panels, but they all sadly had them on it. This is the only one old enough and the one closest to the current design to not have the panels on it.)

BigEdit:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qin5atlkoxkurkw/Orion3Player.log?dl=0 <- For explosions below!

I have a pic of the start of the problem and the F3 log of the explosion for visual confirmation:

How do you make those little pics in the bugtracker?

EditAgain: The other ship the "Orion3" also did the same thing on the runway like the V4 and V3 version did. Albeit being a different craft with the potential of having no literal shared parts between the craft....(AKA I remade the ship from scratch IIRC.) I'm trying to get a pic of the F3 log but have not gotten one where it shows the data successfully. (Anything but a blank text version with catastrophic failure at the as the status after it is finished.)

The explosive chain of events: (Orion3 vessel)

I still can't get anything showing the first part to do something.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Arugela

[Arugela]

I just did the orion3 vessel above with the cheats to make it break hold together on the landing pad. The file is 188.3mb!!! It crashed my computer. lol I'm seeing why he said he wasn't going to bother people with it! 8)

File:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/12khnb0vbemv848/Orion3cheatsPlayer.log?dl=0<- For the morbidly curious!

Pics:

 

Edited May 12, 2016 by Arugela

[Claw]

Well, I didn't have the patience to let it get all the way to 6km, but in my initial look, it appears that there are some struts (at least) are from before the new compound part system. These struts (where ever they are hiding) will fail to form proper joints and my be causing some cascading issues (though I'm not sure why they would cause a problem at 6km).

Also, the 6km mark is more of consequence than the speed. At 6km, the world shifts and recenters on the ship. When that happens, it might be causing some of the struts (or maybe some other parts) to shift improperly, causing the impacts and explosions. This could be due to corrupt parts, or possibly something else (as you might be discovering during your testing).

[Arugela]

There is a single part that I know corrupts the file after loading on the v3 and v4 file. I had another thread on it but could find now way to remove the part to succesfully retest this or anything else. I had to quit and just move the part toa  new ship and continue designing the ship with it in a more hidden/useful locations. Although this part did not exist on the Orion3 vessel. It is from 1.0.4 though or older. And it didn't have problems getting past 6k. Only on the launchpad/runway after the other vessel caused the bug.

Do you have any idea how to get the radiator panel off the v4 ship? I wanted to remove it and see how bad the bug is still. Or if it was related to the problem. I get the feeling it may be the catalyst to all of this.

To mess with that bug you do not need to launch the ship. Only play with it in the VAB and save/load the file etc(Although that will take a few minutes). I have not found a way to remove it without the file being corrupting after saving and reloading the craft. It has permanently stuck itself to the vessel somehow.

This is the thread on that part specifically and the file corruption issue:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/139421-ye-olde-file-corruption-issue/

Craft:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3juoopeyuk2ny8m/The Orion V4 1_1_2 v2.craft?dl=0

Instructions: Take the original v4 file(the file above) in the VAB, rename it slightly. Then take the two radiator panels(large) off it(The ones on the MK3 cockpits at the top of the ship). Save and reload in the VAB and see if it does this:

I have a feeling if I can get those parts off successfully this problem will go away. (BTW, they come off physically but any saving of the craft will be corrupt making it useless afterwords.) They can oddly be moved to any part of the ship and the vessel saved without any issue. But if they are not present on the ship when saved there is a problem.

Also, one of them may come off without an issue. It was only one of them originally and I moved it from another location on the ship. But then I copied the messed up part and put it next to it to cool both sets of drills. I don't know if it passed on the issue to the other copy/pasted panel. So if one comes off and does not cause a problem it would not be surprising.

So far that part is always the first thing to cause an issue when it explodes at 6km. All other issues are from that occurrence. Even on other ships and on the launchpad etc.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Arugela

[sal_vager]

How about moar struts ?

[smjjames]

4 hours ago, sal_vager said:

How about moar struts ?

Not even unbreakable joints stops it from exploding.

[Claw]

The file is so big, it's hard to track down what all issues it might be having (or narrow down where it is) in the file itself.

When you remove the corrupt part/parts and it corrupts, are you getting any errors? Those are probably the first errors to start tracking down. (Plus the strut errors from the older struts.) There was also a bug (fixed in 1.1.X) that would sometimes double-connect a part. So when you removed that part, it tried to delete both links, but would fail and leave a corrupted link entry in the craft. That error is something similar to "Key Not Found."

If that error is present, the only fix is a manual edit of the save file.

[Arugela]

In the v4 1.1.2 v2 ship I think it's the last two parts in the ship file. They were moved and so they are now the final parts. Not sure if that is what you meant though.

What would you remove if you manually edit it. I can probably find it fairly quickly. Would simply removing the Part<> things work? I know exactly where the parts are located in the save. I just don't know anything about what you need to do to remove them besides that.

If there are other links in it besides in it's parts reference are they referenced by any number in the parts listing?

And I'm not sure about the errors. I can't find any logs besides the player.log.

Edit: Nvm, they are not the last parts anymore. But they are the only two Radiator panel(large) so they are easy to look up. I'm making a save and removing the parts in the editor manually to see if that works.

And, sorry, it's the v4 v2 that only has two radiatorpanel(large) I was thinking only v3 had the large ammount of them.

File: Here is the correct version if anyone wants to mess with it.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dcs577ojent25is/The Orion V4 1_1_2 v2bugremoval.craft?dl=0 <- Before removal of Radiatorpanel(large) (use Find function and type in the whole word "radiator". They should be the first two that pop up.

Edit: I just removed the two radiator panels large in the file and loaded it and it still caused the loading issue....  So what else needs to be done with that type of problem?

Here is the player log from when I loaded the above file after removing the parts and caused the loading error:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gm4abigv3zlajxl/BugRemovalPlayer.log?dl=0

Is the error log stuff all in the player.log on linux?

Bigedit:

The part isolated in a 2 part ship. Broken down from the main ship until only the last one was left.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/43mj7zkmbhgdte5/The Orion V4 1_1_2 v2 Parttest12.craft?dl=0 <- Before part is removed. (2 part ship.)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zdachuq9lzimghv/The Orion V4 1_1_2 v2 Parttest13.craft?dl=0 <- After part is removed. (1 part ship.)

I'm going to try to make the bad part the root part and see if it does anything unusual. then remove the adapter also! Edit: NVM, it says  no other valid part is eligible for root.

I took save 12 and put a command module on top. Changed it to root. Moved the panel to the new root part and deleted the adaptor. It made both the adaptor and the panel disappear causing the error again. This reminds me of that old bug where a part got connected to another part incorrectly and if you moved the one part the rest of the parts would move even if they should have have been attached. Except this part doesn't move.

In fact if you do the above and simply move the adaptor on and off of the node without attaching you see both parts highlight green and red on both the adapter and the radiator panel with no reason to.

File: This is stripped down from the orion v4 1.1.2 v2 file. (AKA parttest12)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zqnhw250iiqhmad/The Orion V4 1_1_2 v2 ParttestRedGreen.craft?dl=0 <- You'll notice it goes from 3 to 1 part when the adapter is removed.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2016 by Arugela

[smjjames]

I tested it again and that reduced part ship also reproduces the explosion. I'll put the details and files into the bugreport. Also, interestingly, I'm getting a 'radiator has collided with pad' reason for the explosion.

Hey @Arugela Have you noticed a strange bar appearing after the explosion?

Edited May 12, 2016 by smjjames

[Arugela]

I will look. I hadn't exploded the small ship yet. I didn't think it would be possible as it has no engine.

[smjjames]

Just now, Arugela said:

I will look. I hadn't exploded the small ship yet. I didn't think it would be possible as it has no engine.

I simply slapped on the MK3 rocket fuselage short, a mammoth, and some BigS wings (to keep it stable). And using infinite fuel of course.

[Arugela]

Mine did not blow up at 6k this time. But I think it blew up at a higher altitude. I'll retest to see when it does it again. I didn't need fuel cheats either. It went to like 60k apoapsis then it shrunk from there. I missed when it blew up but the radiator was the part to start it again.

when it loaded on the runway a second time after the explosion now only the cockpit and the radiator are sitting and the rest of the ship is basically invisible. But the parts aren't there and the ships remaining 2 parts in mid air.

uploading ships and pics.

Craft:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9bkzhkvvpmxruxk/The%20Orion%20V4%201_1_2%20v2%20ParttestRedGreen2.craft?dl=0

Pics:

Initial launch:

After explosion:

Revert to Launchpad:

Edited May 12, 2016 by Arugela

[smjjames]

6 minutes ago, Arugela said:

Mine did not blow up at 6k this time. But I think it blew up at a higher altitude. I'll retest to see when it does it again. I didn't need fuel cheats either. It went to like 60k apoapsis then it shrunk from there. I missed when it blew up but the radiator was the part to start it again.

when it loaded on the runway a second time after the explosion now only the cockpit and the radiator are sitting and the rest of the ship is basically invisible. But the parts aren't there and the ships remaining 2 parts in mid air.

uploading ships and pics.

I saw that one as well with the revert to launch. Already posted up my info there.

Edited May 12, 2016 by smjjames

[Arugela]

Note after the explosion with this smaller ship. I can go back to the VAB and then launch again, even after the ship disappears as above, and it loads normally(as far as I can tell) on the launchpad. It does reexplode after launching in the same manner for me.

The radiator now will now blow up just below 30k. the rest of the ship a little after the radiator goes. Even when you use ignore max temperatures. it then reproduces the below pictures. except no heat explosions. Just structural failures.Edit

Edit: Note below with the smaller pics. When turning more cheats on the ship did not explode. But the revert to launch bug was still there. And this time it let me move the camera around instead of being stuck and there were a lot of visual anomalies! I also can't interact with most things in the solar system map mode!

Files:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lxj4eilg05wogpn/RedGreen2Player.log?dl=0

Pics:

Same test with No heat damage cheat:

Ran the test with the below cheats and it did not explode this time:

Visual anomalies:

Edited May 12, 2016 by Arugela

[smjjames]

I got to wondering if it has any similarities with anything else and since Claw mentioned the camera transition, I wonder if it's related in some way to http://bugs.kerbalspaceprogram.com/issues/3326 . 

[Arugela]

BTW, That bar in the pic in the bug tracker is one of the sets of stacks of three S3 14400 tanks from the main large ship. I would know that part anywhere(note the orange at the end of the part!). I did not get the same thing that I saw but I know what part that is. it's the stack of 3 in the middle of the bigger version of the ship that the ISRU's and Ore tanks are sitting on in the middle sections. That is where the Radiator panel was originally located!

So, it is either a ghost part(and appearing as part of the error) or is a part still in space from a previous explosion and was actually still floating in the atmosphere.

I would have noted this earlier but I didn't look at it close enough before to notice until just now. Or it just hadn't registered for me mentally! 8)

Look in your game and see if you can find it as debris. Maybe it's still there. And have you seen that again. It could be because the relaunching is keeping the time in the game the same. I see that alot since I usually fly my ships like that as my game save is a test bed for ship designs.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Arugela

[smjjames]

It's a new save and I reverted to launch or VAB after the explosions, so it isn't possible for there to be anything. I also noticed that I got an exception spam at the same time as well.

I could try taking a further look though.

[smjjames]

I took a look a bit earlier and found that it was just a ghost image, it stayed in the same position on the screen no matter where I moved the camera.

[Arugela]

 

Is there some simple variable we can change in the craft file to remove this part successfully. doesn't the code for the error have to be contained in the craft file somehow? Where and how is this even possible. I thought I put another new unbugged radiator on it and looked at them both and the code was identical... So where would the cause of the bug be?

Here is the code for the 2 part version with just the adaptor and the bugged radiator panel with one new unbugged radiator panel added for comparison:

ship = The Orion V4 1.1.2 v2 Parttest12v2
version = 1.1.2
description = To reporduce bug:¨1. After laoding turn on RCS and SAS.¨2. If desired HIt Abort to empty ore tanks.¨3. Hit 1,2,3 to turn on main engines and max out throttle to take off. ¨4. Wait to hit altitude and see the ship explode.¨¨The F3 log may or may not exist.
type = VAB
size = 5.327502,2.352724,5.327502
PART
{
	part = Size3to2Adapter_4292297802
	partName = Part
	pos = 1.280292,31.05054,0.214593
	attPos = 0,0,0
	attPos0 = 1.280292,31.05054,0.214593
	rot = 0,0.9238791,0,-0.3826846
	attRot = 0,0.923879,0,-0.3826846
	attRot0 = 0,0,0,1
	mir = 1,1,1
	symMethod = Radial
	istg = 0
	dstg = 0
	sidx = -1
	sqor = -1
	sepI = 0
	attm = 0
	modCost = 0
	modMass = 0
	modSize = (0.0, 0.0, 0.0)
	link = radPanelLg_4292270556
	link = radPanelLg_4292270556
	link = radPanelLg_4294679298
	EVENTS
	{
	}
	ACTIONS
	{
	}
	PARTDATA
	{
	}
}
PART
{
	part = radPanelLg_4292270556
	partName = Part
	pos = 2.031299,30.99469,-1.198298
	attPos = -2.491301E-06,-0.06302643,-0.2138932
	attPos0 = -1.530107,-0.05585289,0.4680189
	rot = -0.1929752,-0.1243792,0.9729759,-0.02466875
	attRot = 0,0,-0.9999999,0
	attRot0 = -0.8250634,0.07038894,-0.5506285,-0.105471
	mir = 1,1,1
	symMethod = Radial
	istg = 0
	dstg = 0
	sidx = -1
	sqor = -1
	sepI = 0
	attm = 1
	modCost = 0
	modMass = 0
	modSize = (0.0, 0.0, 0.0)
	srfN = srfAttach,Size3to2Adapter_4292297802
	EVENTS
	{
	}
	ACTIONS
	{
	}
	PARTDATA
	{
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleActiveRadiator
		isEnabled = True
		IsCooling = False
		stagingEnabled = True
		EVENTS
		{
			Activate
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiActiveEditor = True
				guiActiveUncommand = False
				guiIcon = Activate Radiator
				guiName = Activate Radiator
				category = Activate Radiator
				guiActiveUnfocused = True
				unfocusedRange = 4
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			Shutdown
			{
				active = False
				guiActive = True
				guiActiveEditor = True
				guiActiveUncommand = False
				guiIcon = Shutdown Radiator
				guiName = Shutdown Radiator
				category = Shutdown Radiator
				guiActiveUnfocused = True
				unfocusedRange = 4
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			ToggleStaging
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = False
				guiActiveUncommand = False
				guiIcon = Disable Staging
				guiName = Disable Staging
				category = Disable Staging
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
		}
		ACTIONS
		{
			ToggleRadiatorAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
			ActivateAction
			{
				actionGroup = Gear
			}
			ShutdownAction
			{
				actionGroup = Brakes
			}
		}
	}
}
PART
{
	part = radPanelLg_4294679298
	partName = Part
	pos = -0.07669222,31.0955,-0.5688578
	attPos = 0,0,0
	attPos0 = 0.4055457,0.04495621,1.513517
	rot = -0.1084171,-0.4960675,0.06259482,-0.8592117
	attRot = 0,0,0,1
	attRot0 = -0.01634049,0.9836451,-0.1241184,-0.1294993
	mir = 1,1,1
	symMethod = Radial
	istg = 0
	dstg = 0
	sidx = -1
	sqor = -1
	sepI = 0
	attm = 1
	modCost = 0
	modMass = 0
	modSize = (0.0, 0.0, 0.0)
	srfN = srfAttach,Size3to2Adapter_4292297802
	EVENTS
	{
	}
	ACTIONS
	{
	}
	PARTDATA
	{
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleActiveRadiator
		isEnabled = True
		IsCooling = False
		stagingEnabled = True
		EVENTS
		{
			Activate
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiActiveEditor = True
				guiActiveUncommand = False
				guiIcon = Activate Radiator
				guiName = Activate Radiator
				category = Activate Radiator
				guiActiveUnfocused = True
				unfocusedRange = 4
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			Shutdown
			{
				active = False
				guiActive = True
				guiActiveEditor = True
				guiActiveUncommand = False
				guiIcon = Shutdown Radiator
				guiName = Shutdown Radiator
				category = Shutdown Radiator
				guiActiveUnfocused = True
				unfocusedRange = 4
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			ToggleStaging
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = False
				guiActiveUncommand = False
				guiIcon = Disable Staging
				guiName = Disable Staging
				category = Disable Staging
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
		}
		ACTIONS
		{
			ToggleRadiatorAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
			ActivateAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
			ShutdownAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
		}
	}
}

I think I found the problem. The code for the part it was on had a second link reference to the identical part. I removed it and the part and it loaded find. I wish I had noticed the link part earlier!! >< Live and learn.

I'll try it on the larger ship and see if it solved the problem. I'll assume this is what claw was referencing earlier.

Edit: Yep, it worked. Or at least the file corruption is gone. I didn't remove enough things last time I tried editing the part. I missed the links in the mother part.

There was no double link in this case. I assume because I had not moved parts around like the small ship. But the removal of all links and parts did remove it. Now I will try to fly it and see if it blows up. If this works this was much simpler than I made it out to be originally..

Craft:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m6pwydqqe6xxp8k/The Orion V4 1_1_2 v2 boosterslinkremoval.craft?dl=0

The ship is having problems launching. It goes back to VAB with a shortened name..

I hit launch and from the VAB and it ends up in the VAB again but the name shows "The Orion V4 1.1.2 v2 boosters" instead of the full name(The RadiatorPanels(large) are gone though). maybe I missed removing something.

Edit: After hitting launch again after it reloaded back in the VAB from the VAB and it had the new name it went to the launch like it was supposed to. But it still has that odd behavior. Does anyone know what this is?(NVM, That may have had to do with the fact I manually renamed the file outside of the game and it defaulted to it's in file name... I just change the name in the file to make it identical to the file name. Edit: Changed the internal name to match the external name and it was resolved. It loads normally now!)

Testing if it blows up at 6km still. Edit: Did not blow up at 6km!

Finalcraft:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j3y4926w3qqiuhc/The%20Orion%20V4%201_1_2%20v2%20boostersfixed.craft?dl=0

Jeb can be completely irresponsible again!! 8D

Edited May 13, 2016 by Arugela