How To REALLY Get Angry At Space Science Deniers

[razark]

29 minutes ago, cubinator said:

Earth is a spherical pancake. 

You've bought into the lie that the "Earth" actually exists.

[Camacha]

22 hours ago, Dispatcher said:

Negative, Camacha.  Because I have stereo vision and a resultant depth perception, it is clear to me from those experiences that I am looking down at a 3 dimensional object, not something flat like a pancake.  Furthermore, I see water in lakes and on the sea coasts, and that water isn't rushing off the Earth's curvature.  But wait  ... there's more.  What is at least as interesting as the Earth's curvature is the fact that I have moved so that places and landmarks which I am familiar with are now not visible because they are rotated beyond the horizon.

Sorry to disappoint you, but stereo vision does not apply to large distances and objects. Our eyes simply are too close together to measure any relevant difference at those distances. Because there are other cues that also give you information about distance and depth and because your brain is a wonderful liar that fills in what it is used to seeing, you might perceive some depth to be there. Do not be fooled though - it is not.

Quote

 

When something is far from us, we rely on monocular cues, those that require the use of only one eye. For closer objects, we use both monocular cues and binocular cues, those that necessitate both eyes.

 

Source. By being so adamant that you will find the obvious truth through observation, you have proven that observation is subject to bias and what you believe. I too have seen the curvature of the Earth, but at the same time realized that view would not be enough to convince anyone believing the Earth is shaped differently.

Your other two observations might also be explained in various ways. Maybe there is some inherent limit to what you can see. We can already see this in regards to smaller distances - if the atmospheric conditions are not right, view is rather limited. The local conditions will usually be roughly the same all around, to it is somewhat logical that what you see is a circle around you. Something very much like the observable universe. That would explain both of your objections quite well, though other explanations might fit the bill as well.

Regardless, your initial statement pretty much was that people would come to their senses if they were shown the facts. Your answer demonstrates quite well that you though you saw something that our body is not capable of doing. You saw something that you knew you would and should see. It is the very common phenomena of confirmation bias. Where do you think false testimony at trials comes from? Bigfoot sightings? UFO sightings? It usually is not born out of malice, but people align what they see with what they know to be true. The Invisible Gorilla is a pretty neat book about things like these.

Another additional phenomena is that people make up important information they do not know, but feel they should know. Research has shown that people are fairly inaccurate when it comes to remembering personal details on days like 9/11. We feel we should know those details, so we fill them in if we have actually forgotten them. Admitting you do not actually remember it does not seem acceptable.

[Bill Phil]

Not only does binocular vision break down at large distances, but we also don't perceive the sky as a hemisphere. It's flattened somewhat, resulting in a weird illusion involving the Moon's terminator*...

*2 judgement day

[Dispatcher]

1 hour ago, Camacha said:

Another additional phenomena is that people make up important information they do not know, but feel they should know. Research has shown that people are fairly inaccurate when it comes to remembering personal details on days like 9/11. We feel we should know those details, so we fill them in if we have actually forgotten them. Admitting you do not actually remember it does not seem acceptable.

You haven't disappointed me.  What is your point?  That everyone has no sense of what reality actually is, perhaps due to the "human condition"?  Getting back to this thread, its scope is limited to peoples' perceptions of other peoples' purported perceptions about "the flat earth".  I'm pretty confident that the earth is not flat.  You may argue that my senses and beliefs shouldn't mislead me into accepting this notion that the earth is a spheroid (and you want to "enlighten" us to see the "bigger picture").  Perhaps your argument is simply that no matter what people here express, you will call except to those expressions.

Right now I really do think that you get a kick out of differing with others for its own sake.  Due to that, I'm finding that I'm becoming less receptive to anything you express here.  That's too bad, as I was enjoying this thread.

[Camacha]

2 hours ago, Dispatcher said:

You haven't disappointed me.  What is your point?  That everyone has no sense of what reality actually is, perhaps due to the "human condition"?  Getting back to this thread, its scope is limited to peoples' perceptions of other peoples' purported perceptions about "the flat earth".  I'm pretty confident that the earth is not flat.  You may argue that my senses and beliefs shouldn't mislead me into accepting this notion that the earth is a spheroid (and you want to "enlighten" us to see the "bigger picture").  Perhaps your argument is simply that no matter what people here express, you will call except to those expressions.

Right now I really do think that you get a kick out of differing with others for its own sake.  Due to that, I'm finding that I'm becoming less receptive to anything you express here.  That's too bad, as I was enjoying this thread.

The point is, and always has been, a reaction to your original statement - specifically the second part of it:

On 19-6-2016 at 3:38 PM, Dispatcher said:

It is my belief (based on what I've seen in life) that most people will accept true principles [...] simply by being exposed to life's experiences (such as standing on the top of a high mountain or flying by aircraft and thus seeing the grand curvature of the earth).

Even though I would vastly prefer to believe the same, reality does not agree. People see what they are taught to see. Even if they observe the same phenomena as someone else, they often interpret them very differently. If there was any doubt about what the point was, I have reiterated it in the previous post:

5 hours ago, Camacha said:

Regardless, your initial statement pretty much was that people would come to their senses if they were shown the facts. Your answer demonstrates quite well that you though you saw something that our body is not capable of doing. You saw something that you knew you would and should see. It is the very common phenomena of confirmation bias.

It slightly disappoints me that your only options seem to be  "I think I am right for these reasons" and "You are not agreeing with me and that must be for the sake of it". The third option that is missing is an obvious one: "You are not agreeing with me because you might have a valid point".

[Arugela]

If people get upset about flat earthers and conspiracy theorists we need a lot more flat earthers and conspiracy theorists!! ><

[Dispatcher]

16 hours ago, Camacha said:

It slightly disappoints me that your only options seem to be  "I think I am right for these reasons" and "You are not agreeing with me and that must be for the sake of it". The third option that is missing is an obvious one: "You are not agreeing with me because you might have a valid point".

[In context, Camacha is quoting herself (or himself if his forum handle is a parish in Portugal).]

I think we differ in the broader context of life (and that does not trouble me, since I can stir up an argument with anyone and everyone I know when it comes to my points of view on any topic), but I'm having difficulty with our having differences in the tighter realm of "the earth is spherical".

I am quite confident in my understanding of my own experiences in life.  I understand that others, possibly you included, have less confidence in such and feel a need to seek the affirmation of others regarding "truth or fiction".

I don't have any negative feelings towards you.  I simply resign myself to the fact that we disagree.  I used to be quite hell bent on persuading others to see things from my point of view, but I got over it.

Back on topic:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/7-diy-experiments-b-o-b-the-earth-is-round/

Cheers.

[Camacha]

On 24/06/2016 at 2:28 AM, Dispatcher said:

I think we differ in the broader context of life (and that does not trouble me, since I can stir up an argument with anyone and everyone I know when it comes to my points of view on any topic), but I'm having difficulty with our having differences in the tighter realm of "the earth is spherical".

I am quite confident in my understanding of my own experiences in life.  I understand that others, possibly you included, have less confidence in such and feel a need to seek the affirmation of others regarding "truth or fiction".

I feel you are still missing the point. Most people have very few experiences with the Earth actually being spherical. They may have seen something somewhat arched when peering out of an aircraft window, or have seen objects are large distances sink into the ground. They are shards of information at best. What binds these shards into a coherent picture, is what we have been told is going on. We have been told the Earth is spherical and see something that lines up with that story. It is, however, not the only story that could make those shards line up. Thinking people will come to the same logical conclusion by being exposed to evidence is optimistic at best.

For the being confident in understanding your own experiences; speak to the billions of Muslims, Christians or people of other religions. They will tell you they are utterly convinced they know the truth, a truth that also lines up with their observations. The brain is a powerful organ, but a beautiful liar too.

Quote

[In context, Camacha is quoting herself (or himself if his forum handle is a parish in Portugal).]

You Googled me? How adorable

Edited June 25, 2016 by Camacha

[Dispatcher]

38 minutes ago, Camacha said:

I feel you are still missing the point. Most people have very few experiences with the Earth actually being spherical. They may have seen something somewhat arched when peering out of an aircraft window, or have seen objects are large distances sink into the ground. They are shards of information at best. What binds these shards into a coherent picture, is what we have been told is going on. We have been told the Earth is spherical and see something that lines up with that story. It is, however, not the only story that could make those shards line up. Thinking people will come to the same logical conclusion by being exposed to evidence is optimistic at best.

For the being confident in understanding your own experiences; speak to the billions of Muslims, Christians or people of other religions. They will tell you they are utterly convinced they know the truth, a truth that also lines up with their observations. The brain is a powerful organ, but a beautiful liar too.

You Googled me? How adorable

I'm not missing your point, I simply disagree with it.  As for speaking to the billions of religious out there, that would take a long time.  Heh!  As for your forum handle, I wasn't sure whether or not to refer to you as 'he' or 'she' and I didn't know the meaning of the word "camacha" or "camacho" so I figured that a top hit would be a translation, but instead I saw a Wikipedia article on the location "Camacha", which I'd never heard of before but it sounds like a nice place.  Judging from your last sentence, you could be female, or just some dude messing with me.    At any rate, I hope you have a good weekend.

Back on topic, another You Tube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oz7k7Wn_vo

 

[JebKeb]

On 5 June 2016 at 8:21 PM, RandomUser said:

Hah, that'd be pretty funny.  The sad thing being that they'd still continue to say that it is all Photoshop, or they'd just reiterate their nonsensical theory to fit more with what they'd seen.  Flat Earth believers aren't, and have never been, of any immediate or future threat to knowledge, or people, otherwise somebody would go through all the effort to prove them wrong.  But it's just the simple fact that is not a true issue, therefore nobody or conglomerate of people (NASA, ESA, etc.) are willing to go through all the effort. 

Though, one really has to wonder how such an absurd theory as this could be entertained by even the most little amount of people, let alone enough to gain media attention. 

Stick 'em on the outside with no helmet so there's no distortion.

[Guest]

Not related to space, but apparently every single disease possible is caused by "chemtrails":

http://stopsprayingcalifornia.com/Uranium.html

My favorite part was this one, on long-term effects of chemtrails:

• Hypoglycemia
• Hyperglycemia

So variations in blood sugar levels are caused by chemtrails. Huh.

Ooh, these are also interesting:

• White Coating On the Tongue
• And many other symptoms

There's also these gems on the short-term effects:

• Flatulence (gas)
• Flu-like symptoms
• Headaches

• Suicidal thoughts

Like, yep, definetively related to non-existent chemtrails.

Especially the flu-like symptoms. Not caused by flu, no. Those are chemtrails.

Nor flatulence. It's not your intestine at work.

Headaches and suicidal thoughts? Radioactive chemicals and mind-controlling chemtrails.

 

Edited June 27, 2016 by Guest

[razark]

2 hours ago, Aperture Science said:

Not related to space, but apparently every single disease possible is caused by "chemtrails"

Chemtrails from government planes are very obviously evil.

 

In the 1940's, chemtrails were frequently seen over Europe:

These sightings were accompanied by verifiable, and very reliable, reports of large numbers of deaths shortly after these chemtrails were seen.

[Camacha]

On 25-6-2016 at 5:41 AM, Dispatcher said:

I'm not missing your point, I simply disagree with it.

Of course, that is the beauty of the era we live in. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and you can even express those opinions without much fear of retaliation or backlash. However, the value of an opinion is strongly dependent on the value of the arguments it is based on. The fact that ones disagrees has little merit in itself.

[p1t1o]

7 hours ago, Aperture Science said:

•  
• And many other symptoms

Chemtrails.

Oh My God. I get "many other symptoms" all the time!!

[Astrofox]

9 hours ago, razark said:

Chemtrails from government planes are very obviously evil.

 

In the 1940's, chemtrails were frequently seen over Europe:

These sightings were accompanied by verifiable, and very reliable, reports of large numbers of deaths shortly after these chemtrails were seen.

Yeah, but that's probably because of all the bombing that was going on throughout the war.

That causes large death reports. (also, those look like bombers too...)

 

 

Wait, how did this thread devolve into this rather than Space-Deniers?

[p1t1o]

5 minutes ago, Astrofox said:

Yeah, but that's probably because of all the bombing that was going on throughout the war.

That causes large death reports. (also, those look like bombers too...)

Way to go sherlock!

[razark]

19 minutes ago, Astrofox said:

Yeah, but that's probably because of all the bombing that was going on throughout the war.

That causes large death reports. (also, those look like bombers too...)

That's what THEY want you to believe!

 

19 minutes ago, Astrofox said:

Wait, how did this thread devolve into this rather than Space-Deniers?

Because you can only go so far with space-deniers/flat-earthers.

[Matuchkin]

15 hours ago, razark said:

In the 1940's, chemtrails were frequently seen over Europe.

Some rare types of chemtrails were seen to cause abnormally large fireballs that sweep across cities and destroy them.

I'm looking at you, Dresden.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Matuchkin

[Dispatcher]

19 hours ago, Camacha said:

Of course, that is the beauty of the era we live in. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and you can even express those opinions without much fear of retaliation or backlash. However, the value of an opinion is strongly dependent on the value of the arguments it is based on. The fact that ones disagrees has little merit in itself.

I see ... you regret that you cannot impose much fear or retaliation or backlash upon me since I do not accept everything that you are writing.  You should consider this:  ideas, when insisted or forced upon others, are less likely to be accepted, regardless of whether or not they are correct.  They stand a better chance of being accepted if they are offered as ideas and not as indisputable fact or dogma.  Help them come to an acceptance without insisting that it be immediate.  Of course, if you are yelling to someone in the street to get to the safety of the sidewalk, then I suppose that urgency is justified. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6JIE8e2LhQ

I know, you don't want me to believe this video because it could be just a clever set of special effects.

Then again, it just might be that you must have the last word!

Edited June 28, 2016 by Dispatcher
Italicized portion added. Might add a decent video.

[Camacha]

8 hours ago, Dispatcher said:

I see ... you regret that you cannot impose much fear or retaliation or backlash upon me since I do not accept everything that you are writing.  You should consider this:  ideas, when insisted or forced upon others, are less likely to be accepted, regardless of whether or not they are correct.  They stand a better chance of being accepted if they are offered as ideas and not as indisputable fact or dogma.  Help them come to an acceptance without insisting that it be immediate.  Of course, if you are yelling to someone in the street to get to the safety of the sidewalk, then I suppose that urgency is justified.

A discussion consists of two or more people exchanging ideas and points of view, supported by arguments. You counter the arguments of your discussion partner and supplement your own. Just telling people you do not agree without any reasoning or counter arguments is not a discussion - you willfully avoid any discussion. Not accepting discussion, without rhyme or reason, could be considered dogmatic.

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I know, you don't want me to believe this video because it could be just a clever set of special effects.

If that is what you think, you have seriously misunderstood the whole discussion so far. No one here is purporting the Earth is not spherical, nor is having a discussion for the sake of discussing. That is something that could have been established posts ago, if arguments instead of plain denial would have been employed.

Quote

Then again, it just might be that you must have the last word!

It would help if we would leave the straw man tricks - accussing other parties of playing devil's advocate, discussing for the sake of it or wanting to have the last word - out of this (lack of) discussion.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Camacha

[SAS123]

On 5/31/2016 at 3:57 PM, EliasDanger said:

I saw this too. Its soo sad.

I want to see what a flat earth model of solar system looks like, cuz I can't even imagine one that makes sense.

I mean, if its daytime and you call someone in Africa or china or something and its nighttime....that's only possible if the planet were round. If it were flat, it would have to be daytime everywhere or nighttime everywhere.

They believe the planets to not exist in some cases.

[PB666]

There are things worth worrying about and things not worth worrying about, its not like a flat earther is somehiw missing their calling as a theoretical physicist. 

 

[Camacha]

6 hours ago, PB666 said:

its not like a flat earther is somehiw missing their calling as a theoretical physicist. 

Now that I think about it, I see a lot of parallels when it comes to handwavy ideas that seem way out there

[p1t1o]

On 6/28/2016 at 2:50 AM, Dispatcher said:

I see ... you regret that you cannot impose much fear or retaliation or backlash upon me since I do not accept everything that you are writing.  You should consider this:  ideas, when insisted or forced upon others, are less likely to be accepted, regardless of whether or not they are correct.  They stand a better chance of being accepted if they are offered as ideas and not as indisputable fact or dogma.  Help them come to an acceptance without insisting that it be immediate.  Of course, if you are yelling to someone in the street to get to the safety of the sidewalk, then I suppose that urgency is justified. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6JIE8e2LhQ

I know, you don't want me to believe this video because it could be just a clever set of special effects.

Then again, it just might be that you must have the last word!

You sure picked a weird place to make this kind of stand...

[Green Baron]

On 27.6.2016 at 7:38 PM, Matuchkin said:

Some rare types of chemtrails were seen to cause abnormally large fireballs that sweep across cities and destroy them.

I'm looking at you, Dresden.

There still live people today who start to cry when reading this.

This has gone far off topic.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Green Baron