Upgrade through science

[Lennartos]

After playing KSP for quite a while ( still loving it  ), it really started to annoy me that we don't have a way to handle proper upgrades through research in the game.
Usually even older Parts would become more useful as new tech is researched.
Upgrades could include:
* Changing base values like Increasing radiator heat transfer, or engine ISP / thrust.
Or decreasing weight of parts ( like fairings ) with research of better materials.
* Adding/Replacing "modules" to parts, like adding / upgrading default antenna on command pods.
* Adding ISRU options though unlocking more tech ( or change efficiency etc )

Some of these are already possible through clever use of module manager and a hack that involves replacing parts ( what KSPIE does ) or solved through scripting, but replacing parts is very limited in terms of modularity and worst of all the ingame GUI isnt able to explain whats happening at all.
How about adding support for this in the base game, so we can see what passive bonusses im getting as well..?

Advanced Enginering:

• All engines -5% Weight
• LV-T 30: +10% VAC ISP
• All Fuel Tanks: +5% Capacity
• Custom Build Fairing:
  Max Radius +0.5m
  Panel Mass: -10%

 

Alternatively we can solve it with C# scripting, and just allow mods the ability to write TEXT similar to the above in tech screen to explain what the code will do under the hood.
Any other ideas suggestions?

Edited July 18, 2016 by Lennartos

[solarbearman]

Also, there's a mod for it.

 

Edited July 18, 2016 by solarbearman

[Lennartos]

Ah yes, I'm actually playing with that mod atm.. It adds a lot more value to research points, and also makes it a harder decision what to spend it on.
However it is a seperate part based layer similar to tweakscale ( instead of scaling size for increased money cost, you reduce component weight etc for a cost of science points ), also it only changes basic values and isn't tied to research at all.
Even worse is that since its made the same way, it has conflicts with other mods that change the parts ( tweakscale, fuel switch etc), which other mods like KSPIE depend on.

But it would be a good place to start for making a tech based system.

[Wjolcz]

Nah, I don't think it should ever be a thing. Maybe it's realistic, but the game is meant to aim for the same expeerience for everyone. And it also sounds a RPG-ish and that's something I'm very much against in KSP. Having to deal with KXP in stock is already pretty annoying.

Also think about all the ships/vessels you would build in KSP. Changing the stats of engines would probably render previous designs unusable, or at least annoying to deal with. An upgrade mechanic based on "taking some of that and giving some more of that instead" would force people to redesign projects that worked perfectly before the upgrade. It's even more problematic if there are no tools provided to automatically calculate dV, TWR, burn time and stuff like that.

[pandaman]

I don't think changing the stats of existing parts is appropriate.  That way you KNOW what specs a given engine (for example) has, whoever uses it.

A possible compromise could be to introduce a suffix (A,B.C etc) to all parts that can be affected.  Eg.  LV909-A is the first version, when it gets upgraded it is replaced with LV909-B in the parts list, existing vessels built with 'A' don't change, newer vessels use 'B'.  when comparing your vessel to another player's you can see which version was used.

TBH though, I think the current system of unlocking obviously new, more advanced, parts is easier and clearer from a gameplay point of view.

[Jasseji]

@Lennartos there is a mod called Kerbalism which might be in the direction, basically through science upgrades you reduce the failure rate of parts

[nikokespprfan]

16 minutes ago, pandaman said:

I don't think changing the stats of existing parts is appropriate.  That way you KNOW what specs a given engine (for example) has, whoever uses it.

A possible compromise could be to introduce a suffix (A,B.C etc) to all parts that can be affected.  Eg.  LV909-A is the first version, when it gets upgraded it is replaced with LV909-B in the parts list, existing vessels built with 'A' don't change, newer vessels use 'B'.  when comparing your vessel to another player's you can see which version was used.

TBH though, I think the current system of unlocking obviously new, more advanced, parts is easier and clearer from a gameplay point of view.

Although maybe new functionalities could be added to existing parts, as the research progresses, for example.

Pressurized cockpits in early game (you can now safely go out of atmo)

Separation of an SRB's thrust limiter into an start and end thrust limiter.

Ability to hold fuel in the fueled wings.

etc.

 

This way you never actually change the stats, but make parts more useful.

[pandaman]

3 hours ago, nikokespprfan said:

Although maybe new functionalities could be added to existing parts, as the research progresses, for example.

Pressurized cockpits in early game (you can now safely go out of atmo)

Separation of an SRB's thrust limiter into an start and end thrust limiter.

Ability to hold fuel in the fueled wings.

etc.

 

This way you never actually change the stats, but make parts more useful.

That concept could certainly work as a basic idea yes.

The main issue is where a craft NEEDS an upgraded part or ability to work.  

Eg. No fuel tanks other than what's in the wings, without that upgrade the craft won't work. 

It would need careful thought, but I think the basic concept is a valid one.

[Lennartos]

3 hours ago, pandaman said:

That concept could certainly work as a basic idea yes.

The main issue is where a craft NEEDS an upgraded part or ability to work.  

Eg. No fuel tanks other than what's in the wings, without that upgrade the craft won't work. 

It would need careful thought, but I think the basic concept is a valid one.

Thats a bit of a grey area - since if handed by tech requirements that case isn't that much different from it lacking the un-upgraded part.
If we take @pandaman 's idea then essentially you could get the warning that you still need to unlock LV909-C or tech xyz to fly that craft as intended...same way as how it currently tells you that a part is not unlocked yet.

I only play career mode, and don't share crafts with others, so i have little experience with how it usually goes though.
But you still need to have at least the same tech level as the components used to create the craft in either case.
In this case if you ignore the above warnings you CAN still build & fly the craft, but it could lack critical components like antenna in cockpit, have less fuel ( fuel in wings unlocked ) or cannot endure the stress of re-entry heat due to low material tech( increased temp range for all components )
 

[pandaman]

I haven't shared or used other player made craft myself yet either, and don't anticipate doing so much,  but it's great that the option is there, and a lot of players appear to, both for fun and testing.  As long as it's clear which parts are upgraded then the problem will certainly be reduced.

I like @Lennartos idea of warning dialogues, that would certainly help with potential compatibility problems.

My 'gut feeling' on this is that it's a nice idea that I quite like, but in practice could be difficult to implement well, and cause confusion for many players.

[Lennartos]

Integrated into 1.2
Thx SQUAD 

[magnemoe]

On 3.10.2016 at 10:18 PM, Lennartos said:

Integrated into 1.2
Thx SQUAD 

Where?

 

 

Edited October 5, 2016 by magnemoe

[manaiaK]

6 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

Where?

Mmm, not exactly stock, but they've made provision for modders to do it. See Porkjet's new parts pack.

[Lennartos]

2 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Where?

 

 

See the Modding notes of 1.2
there is a entire section with  PartModule Upgrades