Why is this game still on the market place?

[Sonny_Jim]

Please try and be civil, boys and girls.  The point of this thread (in my mind) is to try and keep the developers aware that there's plenty of people unhappy with the console version.  We should be struggling together!

 

 

[Corona688]

7 minutes ago, Sonny_Jim said:

The point of this thread (in my mind) is to try and keep the developers aware that there's plenty of people unhappy with the console version.

There's really no question that they know.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Corona688

[Sonny_Jim]

Well, considering the released a set of dev notes this week that failed to mention anything regarding the console releases, barring that they are actively switching one of the devs around the 3 different platforms continuously, rather than assigning them to monitor the progress of the console platforms makes me think they consider it to be a minor issue.

[RW1984]

I'm seriously worried that for squad the console release is a fire and forget scenario, how can people be patient after a month and a half and to be largely ignored for most of it?

[Corona688]

I can think of boatloads of reasons they'd be quiet, none of which are loathing their customers.  I'm hoping it's good news, but it may be bad.  Either way they're running around like mad in there.

Even if you consider them a strictly evil corporation, the console release must be their priority.  The PC market is saturated, they need console to be profitable, if they don't fix it soon they're in trouble.

Continuous monitoring sounds like a waste of time when 70% of the process is "hurry up and wait for Sony".

6 minutes ago, RW1984 said:

How can people be patient after a month and a half and to be largely ignored for most of it?

Serious questions:

• Is there anything but a fix or refund which would satisfy you at this point?
• Is there anything but a fix or refund which would actually help the situation right now?
• Is there anything that would liquid you off more than a botched fix?
• Might that thing be a fix promised by <X> date and the deadline missed?

My wild guess -- After a few false starts, they're holding their breath the same way we are.  When the end comes it will be quick, but they're not making promises until they're sure.

[Sonny_Jim]

17 minutes ago, RW1984 said:

 

I'm seriously worried that for squad the console release is a fire and forget scenario

 

More than likely, but considering they picked a company with a less than stellar reputation to handle their ports, they probably picked the company who put in the lowest bid.  They probably thought it was a good idea at the time, as it wouldn't take tie up their current devs on platforms that they didn't have much experience with.  The reality is somewhat different, however.

15 minutes ago, Corona688 said:

The PC market is saturated, they need console to be profitable, if they don't fix it soon they're in trouble.

I agree with you (to an extent).  It would have been a great 'advert' for their PC game, even if the console version didn't have feature parity with the PC version.  I could imagine a lot of console players getting the game, enjoying it, then getting the PC version as well so they could get the benefit of mods, better FPS/GFX etc.  Again, it's kinda backfired on them.

15 minutes ago, Corona688 said:

Continuous monitoring sounds like a waste of time when 70% of the process is "hurry up and wait for Sony".

I'm not sure where you get this idea that 70% of the time is going to be waiting for patch approval.  At the end of the day, this isn't going to be a 'brand new game' or even a content update, which might take a while for Sony/Microsoft approval teams to comb through to make sure it isn't going to introduce illicit/banned content.  99.999% of the code is going to be exactly the same, so it shouldn't take 6 weeks or longer for them to approve it, especially considering it's currently a broken product.

What concerns me is that seemingly, none of the Squad team are being assigned to monitor the progress of this, rather they are leaving it up to an external company.  Because FTE have already 'delivered' the console ports, there's nothing to spur FTE on to get it fixed up.

What compounds this is the fact they already have a 'fix', which is to limit the amount of ships/size of savefile.  So in FTEs mind there is no reason for them to spend any reasonable amount of time fixing it, because they can point to the 'workaround'.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Sonny_Jim

[Corona688]

IOW, you don't believe it.  That's fair enough, but doesn't leave much to be said.

2 minutes ago, Sonny_Jim said:

I'm not sure where you get this idea that 70% of the time is going to be waiting for patch approval.

Perhaps you have a higher opinion of Microsoft than I do.  You don't believe me, I don't believe you. 

Edited August 31, 2016 by Corona688

[Sonny_Jim]

You have to admit that it's going to be quicker for them to approve a bugfix than it is to approve an entire game though, right?

 

EDIT:  From this link, which was a response from a Capcom employee regarding approval times, it varies between 2-7 days and can take up to 2 weeks for Sony Europe

http://kotaku.com/5080083/so-how-long-do-sony-and-microsofts-approvals-processes-take

Edited August 31, 2016 by Sonny_Jim

[Corona688]

Careful, we don't know how long they had to fight to get approval in the first place.

That it'd be faster is only a maybe.  The process isn't a rubber-stamp.  If it has issues it'll get sent back, if it has more issues, it'll get sent back, again.  And the issues would be legal, not code related.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Corona688

[chimpbone]

7 minutes ago, Sonny_Jim said:

You have to admit that it's going to be quicker for them to approve a bugfix than it is to approve an entire game though, right?

Don't worry about @Corona688, he doesn't even own a console and is just here to argue. If we stop replying to him maybe he will go away and stop pestering us. He is just trying to bait people into arguing with him anyway. 

[The_Rocketeer]

1 minute ago, Sonny_Jim said:

You have to admit that it's going to be quicker for them to approve a bugfix than it is to approve an entire game though, right?

Who knows? (and how could @Corona688 possibly know?) If they're anything like my insurance company, the guy who does the approval is probably on extended leave at the moment and even when he's there he only works 10-2 weekdays with an hour for lunch. Big companies are often very inefficient when it comes to dealing with smaller customers.

This is not FIFA or Madden or Halo or CoD or any other massive franchise giant that has been in the console business for decades, it's Kerbal Space Program, the first videogame/entertainment software product ever from a company that specialises in guerilla marketing. It's still in active development, a process that has been well published and documented here on this forum and elsewhere online for years before the console release. Nothing's about to change just because console customers have unique problems - a fix will be produced, and it will come when it's fixed and not before.

Patience isn't a quality I immediately associate with my concept of the console demographic, but I promise you when it comes to KSP it is the single best approach one can take to getting what you want. By all means ask, by all means demonstrate the significance of the need, but once it's been made clear to the devs what's required, there really is no benefit to anybody - you included - in getting hot under the collar about it.

If you really feel you've been cheated out of your money, I suggest you approach your vendor for a full refund. On the other hand, if you can bear to wait a few months (as a player and fan of KSP of 4+ years) I promise your patience will be more than rewarded.

[Sonny_Jim]

Just now, chimpbone said:

he doesn't even own a console and is just here to argue.

I'm beginning to believe that, as most of their arguments seem completely irrational.  For example;

2 minutes ago, Corona688 said:

 

Careful, we don't know how long they had to fight to get approval in the first place.

 

They had to fight for approval?  Are you serious?  This is a well established company, with a popular PC title, that doesn't feature any mature content whatsoever and you think they had to twist their arm to let them publish on their platform?

[Corona688]

 

Hey now, I was just starting to enjoy conversation and find common ground with someone legitimately discussing issues.  Maybe off-topic but no reason it can't happen in this thread.

2 minutes ago, Sonny_Jim said:

I'm beginning to believe that, as most of their arguments seem completely irrational.  For example;

They had to fight for approval?  Are you serious?

Fairly serious.  Not clubs-and-guns f fighting, of course, that would be silly.  I mean red tape.  KSP's European release was very late because of it.  Whether their experience is worse than Capcom's I can't say.

2 minutes ago, Sonny_Jim said:

 This is a well established company, with a popular PC title, that doesn't feature any mature content whatsoever and you think they had to twist their arm to let them publish on their platform?

Are you serious?  How would Sony know any of this without them going through the approval process?  Isn't that what it's there for?  It's obviously not for weeding out bugs.

[Sonny_Jim]

4 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said:

If they're anything like my insurance company

Here's the thing, they aren't insurance companies, they are gaming companies that approve games for online sale, every single day.  From googling around it appears that approval can take anything from overnight to 2 weeks.  To blame a 6 week delay in releasing a patch on the approval process is disingenuous imo.  It's far more likely that FTE are dragging their heels/expecting payment to submit a fix.

6 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said:

he first videogame/entertainment software product ever from a company that specialises in guerilla marketing

Is their main company focus guerrilla marketing any more?  Or is it just something they started off doing before KSP became a hit?

[The_Rocketeer]

@Sonny_Jim that wasn't really my point, but whatever the breakdown in delivery (assuming the patch/fix is ready) it's pretty unlikely to be the case that Squad decided to hump their customers by withholding release for a few extra weeks now is it? More to the point, their credentials as videogame developers are not particularly hefty *yet*, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to find that a certain degree of inexperience-related delay was involved.

I can't speak with any authority on Squad's business at all, but while KSP is certainly a flagship product and perhaps their most successful venture, it is certainly not the core- or sole-focus of the business.

[razark]

22 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said:

By all means ask, by all means demonstrate the significance of the need, but once it's been made clear to the devs what's required, there really is no benefit to anybody - you included - in getting hot under the collar about it.

I think part of the problem is that those with legitimate complaints don't know if they've been heard or not.  Squad could possibly do themselves quite a bit of good if someone from the staff at least acknowledged that this has been noticed, and even more if they gave some sort of idea on what's going on with getting it fixed.

Edited August 31, 2016 by razark

[Sonny_Jim]

17 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said:

it's pretty unlikely to be the case that Squad decided to hump their customers by withholding release for a few extra weeks now is it?

Agreed, it would be pretty stupid for them for be sitting on a patch for no good reason.  As speculated in this thread, they could be a whole multitude of reasons why it's taking so long.  Personally, I don't agree that patch submission times are a good reason, to me it's much more likely that they are currently locked into a stalemate with FTE at this point.

17 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said:

their credentials as videogame developers are not particularly hefty *yet*

Yes and no.  They've been working on KSP for over 5 years at this point, so they should have a fairly decent grasp on how to handle releasing and developing a PC title.  My feeling is that they have very little experience with console ports.  I'm wondering if they haven't managed to get into a situation with FTE wherein FTE are pointing to the bits in their contract where they provided Squad with a 'complete' game and are asking Squad for more money to work on the patch.

 

WRT to KSP not being their core business now, I feel this extract from a recent interview says a lot;

http://www.polygon.com/features/2014/1/27/5338438/kerbal-space-program

Quote

 

That's why they hate marketing and advertising.

"It was never our passion," says Ezequiel Ayarza, the other cofounder of Squad. "Not ever." His gravelly voice is low. Ayarza has been rolling his own cigarette. It's thin, as orderly and symmetrical as his carefully combed blond hair.

"Ever since the beginning of the company," he says, "it was always us trying to find new, exciting things for our clients. But also new ways out of the marketing business. That's why we were so encouraged [when we hired Falanghe]. He started to show us things that were completely removed from marketing."

"Right now video games are going to be a focus for the company going forward, because we're already in it," Goya says. "I think we have talented people that can move us forward to another level and start doing other titles that are also fun, also creative."

 

 

Edited August 31, 2016 by Sonny_Jim

[The_Rocketeer]

1 minute ago, Sonny_Jim said:

My feeling is that they have very little experience with console ports.

This was pretty much what I was getting at. Obviously PC release processes are in hand by now, but then again PC releases don't have to be approved by a third party like console releases do. Actually the console release has to be approved by the console producer, and relicensed by the controlling authority, and in this case processed by a porting specialist - FTE - so we're really talking about 3rd, 4th and 5th parties, all essentially new business relationships to Squad AFAIK.

Anyway, I think we're all talking the same language here now, just from different perspectives. PC KSPers have been dealing with these painful delays for years, and now console players are just getting used to 'how things are done here'. It's painful sometimes, but we've all been thru it. Worth remembering sometimes I think

[RW1984]

The squad apologists can come up with excuses and clumsy analogies all day. The hard facts are that squad/FTE have released the buggiest game I've ever come across and what's worse is they've ignored any legitimate calls for information for weeks

[Corona688]

1 hour ago, Corona688 said:

Serious questions:

• Is there anything but a fix or refund which would satisfy you at this point?
• Is there anything but a fix or refund which would actually help the situation right now?
• Is there anything that would liquid you off more than a botched fix?
• Might that thing be a fix promised by <X> date and the deadline missed?

 

1 minute ago, RW1984 said:

The squad apologists can come up with excuses and clumsy analogies all day. The hard facts are that squad/FTE have released the buggiest game I've ever come across and what's worse is they've ignored any legitimate calls for information for weeks

 

[The_Rocketeer]

Can't speak to your personal experience of 'buggy games', but KSP isn't particularly remarkable for bugs based on my 25 years of videogaming experience. What it is remarkable for good dev/customer relationships and an excellent support community here on the forum, regular and detailed devnotes, and an exceptionally novel first product. I don't think it's apologism to point these things out when people criticise their failings.

As for ignoring calls, have you actually approached Squad directly for information, or have you just come to the internet forum and posted angrily?

[RW1984]

Just now, The_Rocketeer said:

Can't speak to your personal experience of 'buggy games', but KSP isn't particularly remarkable for bugs based on my 25 years of videogaming experience. What it is remarkable for good dev/customer relationships and an excellent support community here on the forum, regular and detailed devnotes, and an exceptionally novel first product. I don't think it's apologism to point these things out when people criticise their failings.

As for ignoring calls, have you actually approached Squad directly for information, or have you just come to the internet forum and posted angrily?

It didn't begin as angrily and just today on the Dev note thread I asked for info, completely ignored, that's what gets me, ok you might be having massive problems with the patch but you must engage with the customer Base which you've let down so far. It strikes me as reckless arrogance the attitude they display to console players

[The_Rocketeer]

8 minutes ago, RW1984 said:

It didn't begin as angrily and just today on the Dev note thread I asked for info, completely ignored, that's what gets me, ok you might be having massive problems with the patch but you must engage with the customer Base which you've let down so far. It strikes me as reckless arrogance the attitude they display to console players

Expecting immediate public responses to awkward questions from individual developers (who probably don't have the autonomy or authority to respond anyway, and who post here as such) is a bit unreasonable. It's also not a unique experience for console players - many complaints from PC players are treated in the exact same manner. You might call it reckless arrogance, but in reality engaging in open public discussion of putative business complications could be far more damaging to Squad's reputation.

I suggest you approach the company, or even one of the devs, privately and/or in writing. You may receive a more satisfactory response.

Edited August 31, 2016 by The_Rocketeer

[Sonny_Jim]

31 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said:

PC KSPers have been dealing with these painful delays for years, and now console players are just getting used to 'how things are done here'

Here's the thing, you are seeing this as a KSP player.  It's like spousal abuse, after a while you just sit back and take it because you think that nothing can change what's happening.  In my mind it's an absurd attitude to have (which I'm guilty of having too) and only comes about because it's something you love treating you so badly.

25 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said:

What it is remarkable for good dev/customer relationships and an excellent support community here on the forum, regular and detailed devnotes, and an exceptionally novel first product.

Again, you are seeing this from a PC players perspective.  The console players have had none of that so far.  Hell, they probably won't ever get to have the joy of "KSP doesn't do what I want, wait a minute, there's a mod for that!  Sweet!".  

From their perspective, they've paid and downloaded this sweet game that they hear that NASA and Elon Musk are playing.  They've faced the huge difficultly curve in getting their first ship into orbit, after many failures, but they still carried on.  They find that the last 6 hours or so of 'work' they've put in has disappeared, they understandably get a little angry.

Now they've come onto the official forum to try and find out what's going on, and they face complete lack of acknowledgement from Squad and even worse, ridicule from the 'PC master race', who's reactions seem to be along the lines of "What did you expect?  It's Squad, bend over and take it".

I'm not surprised that some people aren't happy and are refusing to take 'Wait' as a satisfactory answer.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Sonny_Jim

[RW1984]

2 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said:

Expecting immediate public responses to awkward questions from individual developers (who probably don't have the autonomy or authority to respond anyway, and who post here as such) is a bit unreasonable. It's also not a unique experience for console players - many complaints are treated in the exact same manner by PC players. You might call it reckless arrogance, but in reality engaging in open public discussion of putative business complications could be far more damaging to Squad's reputation.

I suggest you approach the company, or even one of the devs, privately and/or in writing. You may receive a more satisfactory response.

Squads reputation?  is that still a thing? Nestor replied publicly so there's precedent , problem is that was almost a month ago!!!!